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  1. #1

    Default Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Hi, 3 short questions:

    1. If I use IPM, DOA, DEP, or FCO as a base for my perfume, will my perfume have drastically weakened projection as compared to a perfume with PA as its base?
    2. Is it true that there is an increased longevity in an oil-based perfume compared to a PA based perfume, when the fragrance is identical?
    3. Which oil base do you recommended?

    That should be all for now,
    Thank you.
    Last edited by LuisJavier; 13th October 2018 at 02:16 AM.
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    IPM still projects pretty well compared to perfumers alcohol, the main downside is the greasy warm texture and less perfume-like characteristics.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Brilliant! Good to hear that. Greasy texture? What do you mean by ''less perfume-like characteristics''? This greasy texture is one or the only one of those characteristics? What do you think about the projection of FCO? If IPM is as greasy or similar in consistency to FCO, then I do not mind.
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  4. #4

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    I meant that IPM is very oily and doesn't have the cooling effect that PA provides in perfume, and also PA projects a little better especially for top notes. However IPM is a much better dilution base, and also preservative. I don't use FCO so I can't comment on that, I assume it's quite similar to IPM texture wise.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Have you experimented with DOA or DEP as oil bases? If so, how did you find them in terms of projection when compared to PA? Open to any other details you provide.
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  6. #6

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Nope I only have IPM currently and PA.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    We must be using a different kind of product as I find that IPM is a dry oil, but kills the projection stone dead.

    Most oil based perfumers use a mix of FCO and Jojoba oil. I have some oil perfumes in this base, and the projection is reasonable, but not great.

    Coco-caprylate is a natural silicone that projects well, but has the disadvantage of having its own smell which is not easily covered up. It's a kind of plasticky vinyl smell- which seems strange for a natural derived product, athough it could be the quaity of the batch I received, and argumentatively with myself, alcohol has its own smell. too.

    The best alternative I have found so far to PA is dodecane: it's super dry, very diffusive and sprayable, BUT it is also flammable, so mailing regs could still be a problem. Although it is not as flammable as PA. Also it does not mix with alcohol, so adding tinctures is a no-go- which isn't a problem with coco-caprylate.

    AS an additional question on this thread, Triethyl citrate. I Know it is a solvent and fixative, but can anyone tell me how it performs as a perfume base - the texture, projection, ect???

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    It's disappointing to hear that IPM has bad projection when I thought the contrary. I could test the coco-caprylate by buying a sample amount. Where did you get a hold of some Dodecane? I cannot find much online (Sigma Aldrich stock it but the price is ghastly. You said that it does not mix with alcohol; I think you are referring to ethanol as I would need alcohols such as citronellol and geraniol to mix with it. It sounds like you lean towards oil-based perfumes like me, Clare. One of the reasons that I had decided to go down the oil-route is because I find that spraying alcohol on my skin would make it dry, sometimes sting (I do not shave) and sometimes itch. I tried using FCO to dilute some coumarin but it was terrible even when heat was applied!
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Hi Luis,

    I get my dodecane here where I live in France. It is not cheap at all, but nowhere near that ridiculous quote from Sigma Aldrich. It goes by the name of "Dry touch" in France. The only problem is they only sell it in very small quantities.
    https://www.aroma-zone.com/info/fich...uch-aroma-zone

    They also sell coco-caprylate under the name "Coco Silicone" - again, not cheap, but not break the bank, either.

    I do not know what country you are in, but if UK, Plush Folly also sell coco-caprylate.

    I prefer alcohol perfume, but quickly realised due to mailing regs that if at any time I ever did want to set up and sell ( and that is a long way off to never, I hasten to add) oil perfume was the way to go, as alcohol is nigh impossible to send overseas anymore and the restrictions are getting tighter all the time).

    BTW , all oils will have restrictions as to what they will dissolve, and I have never had much luck with powders. This is why Coco-caprylate seemed so promising as it blended with alcohol, so I could also add amounts of alcohol blended additives to it, sometimes the solids would form again, but would filter out and leave the smell behind. But , the vinyl smell of the liquid itself...ah. well. Good luck!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    I think I'll stick to something like IPM/DEP/DOA or just go back to PA. Yes, I live in the UK, so I may struggle trying to find dodecane here. I will also try to avoid the coco-caprylate due to the vinyl scent you mentioned. I think my IPM should arrive tomorrow. If it does not perform well, I may just go back to PA. Thank you Clare.
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    You're welcome.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    TEC Triethyl Citrate
    "Just a small ps. I don't like TEC. As a cosmetic scientist I wouldn't recommend it to be used in fragrances. Why? Because it's a known penetration enhancer, meaning it is used in pharmaceuticals and cosmeceuticals to deliver active agents to the deeper layers of the skin. If you blend it with fragrance sensitizers and allergens, you are likely to trigger sensitization and allergy to perfume much more easily. For DIY purposes fine. If you want to go commercial and sell your creations, please reconsider."

    BASENOTE THREAD


    I trust Irina's experience and knowledge.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    TEC Triethyl Citrate
    "Just a small ps. I don't like TEC. As a cosmetic scientist I wouldn't recommend it to be used in fragrances. Why? Because it's a known penetration enhancer, meaning it is used in pharmaceuticals and cosmeceuticals to deliver active agents to the deeper layers of the skin. If you blend it with fragrance sensitizers and allergens, you are likely to trigger sensitization and allergy to perfume much more easily. For DIY purposes fine. If you want to go commercial and sell your creations, please reconsider."

    BASENOTE THREAD


    I trust Irina's experience and knowledge.
    Thanks Julian.

    Although to be fair, alcohol is also a "penetration enhancer" hence being used for many applicationswhere a drug is absorbed into the skin. Silicone olsare big molecules that aren;t absorbed, so again another plus for them.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Thank you Julian. Is the case the same for FCO, IPM, and DPG?
    Currently wearing: Jungle pour Homme by Kenzo

  15. #15

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clare30 View Post
    Thanks Julian. Although to be fair, alcohol is also a "penetration enhancer" hence being used for many applications where a drug is absorbed into the skin. Silicone olsare big molecules that aren't absorbed, so again another plus for them.
    Good point Claire. What would be an application example of where alcohol is used as a penetration enhancer? I am certainly not a cosmetic scientist so am really out of my depth.

    Also, I assume there are many factors involved in this aspect of skin penetration. The amount of time it takes? The depth it goes into the skin layer?
    I also assume that both "natural" essential oils and synthetics have the capability of skin penetration. I suppose any organic chemical does. I am not sure anything just "sits" on the skin. As you have pointed out it makes sense that the larger molecules would have a tougher time with this penetration, but there must also be many other factors don't you think?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisJavier View Post
    Thank you Julian. Is the case the same for FCO, IPM, and DPG?
    I am sorry I just do not have training or experience to answer your question with any validity. I wish I could. Perhaps others could weigh in with real scientific knowledge and experience?

    My opinion and the little I know is that FCO sits "on top". My wife, a massage therapist of 30 years, uses is constantly. I introduced her to it through my perfume work. Many massage therapist will use, jojoba, olive, grape seed, etc. She tells me that FCO is very light weight, and doesn't go rancid. Washes out of the massage sheets easily. More slippery than other oils and does not seem to penetrate the skin as deeply, sits "on top" more. Other massage therapists do not necessarily like it because it doesn't give enough friction in the massage.

    As a perfumer, I really like it. I find the other vegetable oils go bad (rancid) quickly and also become very sticky and gooey which is a consideration for anything sitting in a bottle for a while. FCO also has very little smell, if any, and materials seem to dilute in it well. I never use Jojoba in perfume.

    Here is an excellent observation by David
    Last edited by julian35; 18th October 2018 at 02:01 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    Good point Claire. What would be an application example of where alcohol is used as a penetration enhancer? I am certainly not a cosmetic scientist so am really out of my depth.

    Also, I assume there are many factors involved in this aspect of skin penetration. The amount of time it takes? The depth it goes into the skin layer?
    I also assume that both "natural" essential oils and synthetics have the capability of skin penetration. I suppose any organic chemical does. I am not sure anything just "sits" on the skin. As you have pointed out it makes sense that the larger molecules would have a tougher time with this penetration, but there must also be many other factors don't you think?
    Well, for a general example, ibuprofen gel for topical pain relief. I have a medication I use that is a gel and is alcohol based Also hormonal patches such as testosterone patches and oestrogen patches have alcohol as a component, no doubt to provide sterility to the patch as well. I am not a cosmentic scientist either, but as a former aromatherapist, i can vouch that essential oils particularly are very easily absorbed by the skin and are generally a lot smaller than the 500 dalton required to cross the dermal barrier. The carrier oil of course slows this absorbtion, but will not prevent it.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Oil based perfume (IPM, FCO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Clare30 View Post
    Well, for a general example, ibuprofen gel for topical pain relief. I have a medication I use that is a gel and is alcohol based Also hormonal patches such as testosterone patches and oestrogen patches have alcohol as a component, no doubt to provide sterility to the patch as well. I am not a cosmentic scientist either, but as a former aromatherapist, i can vouch that essential oils particularly are very easily absorbed by the skin and are generally a lot smaller than the 500 dalton required to cross the dermal barrier. The carrier oil of course slows this absorbtion, but will not prevent it.
    Ok, thanks for that Claire. I realise those products had alcohol in them, but didn't know the purpose was deeper penetration.

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