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  1. #1

    Default Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    I don't have much experience with funcional product scent creation but I've created this simple Eau de Cologne formula bellow and I liked it enough to possibly create a shower gel or liquid soap with it.

    Lemon EO @ 10% 2.5 gr
    Bergamot EO @10% 3.5 gr
    Sweet Orange EO @ 10% 2.0 gr
    Lavandin EO @10% 1.5 gr
    Rosemary EO @ 10% 0.3 gr
    Neroli EO @ 10% 0.26 gr
    Cedrat EO @ 10% 1.012 gr
    Cedar Atlas EO @ 10% 0.84 gr
    Ambrox DL @ 10% 1.512 gr
    Iso E @10% 2.017 gr
    Frankincense EO @10% 1.01 gr
    Cypress EO @10% 0.301 gr
    Orange Flower Abs @ 1% 0.1 gr
    Hedione @ 10% 2 gr



    I recreated the formula neat, undiluted, in the same material proportions but with no alcohol. and bought some unscented base from a commercial supplier.
    I have not been able to create a pleasant smell when I mix 3% of fragrance formula to the base or even going up higher in the % of formula in Base.
    The formula takes this waxy, rancid smell in fact. Does anyone have any experience with this type of functional formula?
    Could any of my oils be reacting with the base ? Could they be replaced and keep same odor profile ?


    Any help would be much appreciated !


    Gus
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  2. #2

    Default Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Looks like a good formula Gus, I would like to give it a try.
    Do you know what the materials are in your base? I would say that there is a reaction occurring.

    Julian

  3. #3

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Hi Julian, thank you for your reply
    Actually the formula posted at 10% was in Perfumers alcohol , but I mixed the materials in the same proportion with no alcohol to create the formula for the shower gel.
    I bought the base from a bulk product place but will look into it now an post the ingredients.
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Your formula is very short. therefore you can easily try each ingredient in your base and see if you can determine which item(s) is causing the problem.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Thank you Paul, I started that process and also emailed the base manufacturer to see if there are any specific material contraindication.
    All I read is that Lemon sometimes is unstable in shower gel formulations.
    I will continue my testing
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  6. #6

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Your formula is very short. therefore you can easily try each ingredient in your base and see if you can determine which item(s) is causing the problem.
    would you dilute the raw materials in any specific medium for a shower gel or add them in their natural state at full strength (even solids) ?
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  7. #7

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  8. #8

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Your base could be expired. Try rubbing on yourself or try another fragrance mixture in it to test if the base is the problem. I've made shower liquid before usually 2-5% is enough. Can also try a non fragrance commercial body soap and see if you get the same reaction. Lemon is unstable but only in the long term. In the short term if you use it up it's fine.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusromero1 View Post
    would you dilute the raw materials in any specific medium for a shower gel or add them in their natural state at full strength (even solids) ?
    Test them exactly as used in the base...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  10. #10

    Exclamation Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Gus, I am not a chemist, and I am trusting that others will correct me if I am wrong, or elaborate.

    As I suspected,... I have been corrected. Elucidations are in red below.

    - I understand that Citrus materials oxidize and are naturally hydrophobic. This is both a problem of stability and solubility in shower gel which is hydrophilic.
    True. However, it is possible to increase stability by the use of buffers and antioxidants.This is Not a problem due to surfactants.

    - Fragrance is ideal if polar as possible. Minimize the use of non- polar types like hydrophobic citrus. A little tricky in the formula you have.
    This is Not a problem due to surfactants.

    - If the product contains water... and your base has >50% ; Therefore any terpenes, sesquiterpenes, aromatic, cyclic, polycyclic compounds are insoluble.
    All shower gels contain >50% water. However, the detergents are able to solubilise most fragrance ingredients.

    - Lactones are unstable under basic conditions (open to hydroxy acid which can create an unwanted odour)
    True. However it is possible to control to the pH to minimise this.

    - Ideally you are looking for “alternate” citrus notes that have fragrant properties similar to citrus scent but do not contain an unsaturated terpene content (branched alcohols that posses some citrus character)
    Not necessary. It is possible to use more stable citrus notes, but with shower gel it is not usually necessary.

    Functional perfumery is not a simple thing, and I have just enough knowledge on this subject to be dangerous.
    Perhaps eliminating your material one by one in the base, as suggested, is the simplest way.
    I would add each material, individually to a small amount of the base to see what occurs. Both visually and smelling.
    Last edited by julian35; 8th November 2018 at 09:30 PM. Reason: Corrections in content

  11. #11

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Thank You Julian; I will take your notes in consideration.
    I was aware of stability issues with Lemon and thought of creating a lemon with other notes and editing the Essential Oil off the formula. But I have so many other citrus notes that I am not sure I will know how to create all those replacements without affecting the quality and most importantly the fragrance.

    RSG suggested the base might be expired which is another possibility. I also email the manufacturer to get their two cents...

    The mix continues to be the same clear-yellowish quality as before adding the formula. it does not go cloudy as I have seen in many liquid body washes after the addition.

    I also checked every individual ingredient ( except Cedrat ) in the Perfumer's world site. The site offers ingredients performance in different products. Except for Lemon, they all seem to be ok.
    I will exhaust every angle !!
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  12. #12

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Can you tell me what the Botanical Name of your Cypress EO is?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    I love this I wish there were a whole thread about oxidation, both in the bottle and out of it. Also what kinds of simple tests can be done, like could he put some gel in peroxide and see if the same funky smell develops? Then f so, would it be the fatty acids as culprit?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    Can you tell me what the Botanical Name of your Cypress EO is?
    I used Cupressus Sempervirens, organic from Spain
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  15. #15

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    I've been making shower gels for a while now and I haven't had any citruses immediately go rancid, maybe 6 months in they have. I have added preservatives (optiphen aka benzoic acid) and a solubilzer (Polysorbate 20) to make a more clear gel. I haven't had enough sitting around to test the efficacy of the preservative but it is the most commonly used preservative in shower gels.

    BTW I've used bergamot, mandarin, orange, and bitter orange, but no lemon.

    Also, my shower gel base has a recommended max fragrance load of 2%, and they are quite strong at that level.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    There are other lemon type molecules that you could use, instead of lemon oil, if that's the culprit.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusromero1 View Post
    I used Cupressus Sempervirens, organic from Spain
    Ok thanks, I assumed that, but there are some other possibilities under the generic "cypress" name.
    Gus, I just wanted to let you know I made your cologne formula last night.
    It is a very pleasant composition and I am enjoying its effects through the day. Well done, I think it will mature nicely.
    Also, I have made corrections that were kindly pointed out to me in my previous post on this thread. I didn't give the whole picture in my original post and there are solutions to all the issues related to these materials.

    Still don't know what could be causing the off smell, so if you find the culprit please let us know.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Thank you for your support !
    I am receiving a new base for the soap tomorrow, hopefully that will take care of the issues I experienced. I used an organic based that a friend provided and I think the product was too old.
    I will keep you posted on my progress

    Gus
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  19. #19

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    There are other lemon type molecules that you could use, instead of lemon oil, if that's the culprit.
    Hi Paul;

    I think the problem was the base all along. I used an organic base that a friend gave me and I think it was too old.
    I will repeat my experiments next week when I get the new base and keep you posted.

    thanks for your help !

    Gus
    Currently wearing: Macassar by Rochas

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusromero1 View Post
    Hi Paul;

    I think the problem was the base all along. I used an organic base that a friend gave me and I think it was too old.
    I will repeat my experiments next week when I get the new base and keep you posted.

    thanks for your help !

    Gus
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Turning a formula for EDT into a shower gel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusromero1 View Post
    Hi Paul;

    I think the problem was the base all along. I used an organic base that a friend gave me and I think it was too old.
    I will repeat my experiments next week when I get the new base and keep you posted.

    thanks for your help !

    Gus
    I like Wholesale Supplies Plus for cosmetic bases, just a recommendation.
    http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com


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