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  1. #1

    Default Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    As far as I understand it oakmoss is not bannned.It is just strongly suggested it not be used by some outfit or organization (IFRA?).Keep in mind I do not know much about this topic so I could be wrong.However it seems some cologne companies still use it, so why don't they all start using it again and ignore what IFRA or whatever it is called has to say?
    Last edited by Mayberry2; 1st January 2019 at 10:31 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    My understanding is that they don't want to limit their markets. However, it also may be that oakmoss is out of style, and so companies that might use significant amounts are more interested in cloning the top designer scents, which don't have much if any. Also, it's not free and it likely costs more than the cheapest and most commonly-used aroma chemicals.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 1st January 2019 at 11:01 PM.

  3. #3
    Basenotes Institution Darjeeling's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Because oakmoss smells terrible, and anyone who likes it is a terrible person
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    A certain BN did post a picture of a fragrance with oakmoss actually listed in the list of ingredients. Think it was around 2016.
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Lush use oakmoss in various forms in some of their products (links to UK Lush site pages): dried oakmoss; oakmoss absolute; oakmoss extract; and oakmoss infusion.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayberry2 View Post
    As far as I understand it oakmoss is not bannned.It is just strongly suggested it not be used by some outfit or organization (IFRA?).Keep in mind I do not know much about this topic so I could be wrong.However it seems some cologne companies still use it, so why don't they all start using it again and ignore what IFRA or whatever it is called has to say?
    We should see more smaller producers do this... probably not many as oakmoss is not a popular note these days.
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    Also, it's not free and it likely costs more than the cheapest and most commonly-used aroma chemicals.
    Maybe this.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Availability of the raw material might be an issue since an adequate synthetic subsitute has yet to be invented. But I agree with the observation that as a note it is no longer ‘in trend’.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestbrummie View Post
    Lush use oakmoss in various forms in some of their products (links to UK Lush site pages): dried oakmoss; oakmoss absolute; oakmoss extract; and oakmoss infusion.
    These look absolute amazing on that website. Oh yeah, this American is a HUGE Churchill fan
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    Super Member calitrav's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Fwiw, the bottle of Patrick (Fragrances of Ireland) that I bought new last year has Oakmoss listed in its ingredients.
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    I heard somewhere years ago that it was an issue with getting product liability insurance. If a company disregards the IFRA guidelines, there's no direct penalty, but that company might find it much harder to get insurance. Can't remember the source, and it was years ago, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, I don't believe this would be an issue with an American company that wasn't trying to sell in the EU, which might explain the greater number of American indie/artisan outfits that disregard the IFRA guidelines.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Oakmoss and Tree moss are extremely limited under IFRA/EU due to skin allergic reactions shown in certain individuals with lab testing. The guidelines are available online if you search. I happened to be looking at the banned and limited list last week. Same for many citrus oils. Of course this is one reason why I'm enjoying a few fragrance houses that do not need to adhere to EU/IFRA regulations because they are not in the EU or IFRA. They are not unscrupulous but they are also not limited in the amount of oakmoss or real ambergris their perfumes contain. And they can use real oud, not a synthetic. Yay!

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    If they thought they could make more money by doing so I think they would. I agree, with it being not in vogue that there is much less of an incentive to do so.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazznpool View Post
    Oakmoss and Tree moss are extremely limited under IFRA/EU due to skin allergic reactions shown in certain individuals with lab testing. The guidelines are available online if you search. I happened to be looking at the banned and limited list last week. Same for many citrus oils. Of course this is one reason why I'm enjoying a few fragrance houses that do not need to adhere to EU/IFRA regulations because they are not in the EU or IFRA. They are not unscrupulous but they are also not limited in the amount of oakmoss or real ambergris their perfumes contain. And they can use real oud, not a synthetic. Yay!
    It will be possibly necessary that either more fragrance houses are founded and/or transferred, outsourced etc. under IFRA/EU non-compliant jurisdictions AND find a loophole to legally bypass IFRA/EU restrictions even in countries/regions etc. where these ones are still in effect
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by calitrav View Post
    Fwiw, the bottle of Patrick (Fragrances of Ireland) that I bought new last year has Oakmoss listed in its ingredients.
    I asked the nice people at Fragrances of Ireland some time ago and they said there is only a tiny amount of oakmoss (less than 1 part per million) in Patrick. Its in the style of a classic green soapy fougere, but without a big dose of oakmoss unless it has recently been increased. It has a boatload of coumarin though.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    IFRA is voluntary. EU regulations are not. They will forbid oak moss in 2020 in the EU but they don’t yet. They can have a small amount until 2020.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Because Oakmoss has similarities to Sarin

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Also, I would imagine that the number of people that care about real Oakmoss is much less than people that don't even know what it is and are just buying a frag for themselves or as a gift..
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Oakmoss may be out of style but they still should be able to use it for those colognes that did use it at one time.I have read many times here that a lot of the older fragrances are shadows of what they were because of some of these restrictions and not only oakmoss.If it is also a matter of cost, that says a lot about the modern state of cologne companies and it is not good.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by masonjarjar View Post
    Also, I would imagine that the number of people that care about real Oakmoss is much less than people that don't even know what it is and are just buying a frag for themselves or as a gift..
    Well if prices for vintage are a good indicator, more and more people are seeking "old school" fragrances that contain quite a bit, and prices will likely keep rising for at least a few years.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    A lot of people may not know or care about things like oakmoss or some of the other restricted ingredients like those citrus ones mentioned.I did not either until fairly recently.
    However they then often may wonder why the specific cologne they once liked has changed and the newer version of it is not good anymore,or not as good.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    It’s done to protect you, or at least to protect fragrance companies from the risk of litigation.
    Even if they don’t use the word banned, you need to interpret the phrasing based on how it’s construed in the context of the regulations, as well as the intent and aims of the regulations.

    Oak moss is is still permitted in very small amounts, and It seems that recently there have been moves to restrict it in terms of the quantity of the allergen (atranol?), and people are working on low-allergen oak moss.

    Its an unfortunate fact that industries like make up and fragrance are extremely cautious about any reaction caused by their products because they are applied directly to skin.
    1. No, never blind buy (I do, but do as I say, not as I do. I'm taking no responsibility for your fragrance gambling).
    2. Get them both. You're a Basenoter and you know you're going to end up purchasing them both eventually.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjeeling View Post
    It’s done to protect you, or at least to protect fragrance companies from the risk of litigation.
    Even if they don’t use the word banned, you need to interpret the phrasing based on how it’s construed in the context of the regulations, as well as the intent and aims of the regulations.

    Oak moss is is still permitted in very small amounts, and It seems that recently there have been moves to restrict it in terms of the quantity of the allergen (atranol?), and people are working on low-allergen oak moss.

    Its an unfortunate fact that industries like make up and fragrance are extremely cautious about any reaction caused by their products because they are applied directly to skin.
    All that's required is a warning label, such as is used on a bunch of other products. Ultimately, you either deal with the current reality or you make your own fragrances. One possibility is finding an "indie" perfumer who doesn't comply with IFRA, such as Rogue, which is owned by a BN member.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    I am usually in favor of good restrictions and regulations in general.
    However anything in a cologne can have the potential for some kind of reaction.And I would guess the newer chemicals they use nowadays and those they are coming out with are much worse than something like oakmoss or certain citrus ingredients that have been used for many, many years.I still say unless it is an outright ban,cologne companies should totally ignore those restrictions and as mentioned just put a label on the box.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darjeeling View Post
    It’s done to protect you, or at least to protect fragrance companies from the risk of litigation.
    That's what I always understood it to be about at its most fundamental.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrilledchilled View Post
    IFRA is voluntary. EU regulations are not. They will forbid oak moss in 2020 in the EU but they don’t yet. They can have a small amount until 2020.
    Wow, just read an article about this upcoming EU restriction / ban. And everyone here was whining about IFRA...
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayberry2 View Post
    Oakmoss may be out of style but they still should be able to use it for those colognes that did use it at one time.I have read many times here that a lot of the older fragrances are shadows of what they were because of some of these restrictions and not only oakmoss.If it is also a matter of cost, that says a lot about the modern state of cologne companies and it is not good.
    Oakmoss can be used to create excellent modern perfumes. It's all about the composition as a whole. It's not because a fragrance contains oakmoss that it will feel outdated like some people believe.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Oakmoss can be used to create excellent modern perfumes. It's all about the composition as a whole. It's not because a fragrance contains oakmoss that it will feel outdated like some people believe.
    Good point. My bottle of Bleu de Chanel (from probably 2013) lists oak moss in its ingredients, and no one would call Bleu a "dated" or "old school" fragrance (unless you're ready to be past the trend it represents). Others have pointed out that many pre-IFRA formulas rely less on oak moss than people fear. In other words, its importance can be overblown for many compositions. That said, obviously classic chypres completely rely on it for their trademark accord, and otherwise light citrus compositions like Eau Sauvage or Chanel Pour Monsieur were well assisted by oak moss's extended dry down. Various fragrances depended on its fragrant qualities, rather than just as a fixative player in a more-complex base, and those fragrances are more obviously hurt by its restriction.

    I'll be very interested to see what happens if atranol-free oak moss becomes inexpensive enough for wide use. Presumably that moss will still have its great fixative qualities, so I'd imagine perfumers would want to take advantage of the material again, even if what's laid over it is not an old-school fougere or chypre (again, Bleu de Chanel is an example). By then maybe the market will have finally tired of screeching, buzzy woody aromachemicals, leaving a modern oak moss ready for its return.

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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by onethinline View Post
    Good point. My bottle of Bleu de Chanel (from probably 2013) lists oak moss in its ingredients, and no one would call Bleu a "dated" or "old school" fragrance (unless you're ready to be past the trend it represents). Others have pointed out that many pre-IFRA formulas rely less on oak moss than people fear. In other words, its importance can be overblown for many compositions. That said, obviously classic chypres completely rely on it for their trademark accord, and otherwise light citrus compositions like Eau Sauvage or Chanel Pour Monsieur were well assisted by oak moss's extended dry down. Various fragrances depended on its fragrant qualities, rather than just as a fixative player in a more-complex base, and those fragrances are more obviously hurt by its restriction.

    I'll be very interested to see what happens if atranol-free oak moss becomes inexpensive enough for wide use. Presumably that moss will still have its great fixative qualities, so I'd imagine perfumers would want to take advantage of the material again, even if what's laid over it is not an old-school fougere or chypre (again, Bleu de Chanel is an example). By then maybe the market will have finally tired of screeching, buzzy woody aromachemicals, leaving a modern oak moss ready for its return.
    I think the above is the likliest outcome.
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  30. #30
    Super Member calitrav's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why don't more cologne companies ignore the restrictions on oakmoss?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    I asked the nice people at Fragrances of Ireland some time ago and they said there is only a tiny amount of oakmoss (less than 1 part per million) in Patrick. Its in the style of a classic green soapy fougere, but without a big dose of oakmoss unless it has recently been increased. It has a boatload of coumarin though.
    Interesting to hear, thanks.

    Since that's the case, I probably couldn't even smell it, even though I thought I had.

    (Also I didn't know the restriction was due to people with allergies -- can't they just put a warning label on the bottles like "contains oakmoss"?)
    Last edited by calitrav; 5th January 2019 at 02:46 AM.
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