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  1. #1

    Default searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Hey guys,

    I read a lot about pro and cons natural vs synthetics.
    For what Iam doing I decided to go with synthetics.
    Now Iam wondering where to get or how to search for particular synthetics like Juniper Berry.
    It seems that there is just a natural option.
    But as widely distributed perfumes just carry most of the time synthetics and Juniper Berry is really common there must be a synthetic.
    Whats the best way to find equivalents of naturals?

    Thankful for every Tip!

    Best!

    F

  2. #2

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    its not as black and white as that im afraid. you may need many synthetics to create a convincing note of Juniper berries. remember, synthetics are mostly single molecules of which naturals can be made up of hundreds
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  3. #3

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Sabinene should be the distinctive molecule of juniper berries.

    Inviato dal mio SM-J730F utilizzando Tapatalk

  4. #4

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Here's one example of what makes up Juniper Berry from https://essentialoils.org/db#

    Type your desired EO in the search and be amazed.

    Name* Percentage*
    alpha-Pinene 35%
    Myrcene 18%
    Terpinen-4-ol 10.50%
    Limonene 9.10%
    Terpinolene 3%
    gamma-Cadinene 1.64%
    Citronellal 1.60%
    gamma-Elemene 1.60%
    para-Cymene 1.50%
    gamma-Muurolene 1.28%
    alpha-Humulene 1.02%
    beta-Elemene 1.02%
    beta-Pinene 0.88%
    alpha-Thujene 0.84%
    Calamenene 0.71%
    beta-Caryophyllene 0.68%
    alpha-Muurolene 0.68%
    alpha-Terpineol 0.32%
    beta-Selinene 0.32%
    Menthol 0.22%
    Caryophyllene oxide 0.15%
    delta-3-Carene 0.10%
    Humulene oxide 0.09%
    Junipercamphor 0.05%
    alpha-Cadinol 0.04%
    Bornyl acetate 0.02%
    Aromadendrene 0.02%
    gamma-Selinene 0.02%
    Camphene 0.01%
    alpha-Terpinyl acetate 0.01%
    Geranyl acetate 0.01%
    alpha-Copaene 0.01%
    p-Cymen-8-ol 0.01%
    Myrtenal 0.01%
    delta-Cadinol 0.01%
    Myrtenyl acetate 0.01%
    p-Mentha-1,2,4-triol 0.01%

  5. #5

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    From what i know juniper berries eo should have at least 10% of sabinene.
    In your list I don't see sabinene at all.

    Somewhere there's something wrong, I'm afraid ...

    Inviato dal mio SM-J730F utilizzando Tapatalk
    Last edited by pierpaolo72; 19th September 2019 at 09:32 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by pierpaolo72 View Post
    From what i uni e juniper berries eo should have at least 10% of sabinene.
    In your list I don't see sabinene at all.

    Somewhere there's something wrong, I'm afraid ...

    Inviato dal mio SM-J730F utilizzando Tapatalk
    Maybe so. There are 10 juniper berries listed in that database. I just chose one at random as an example.

  7. #7

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    From the article:
    "GC-MS analyst of the essential oils of Juniperus communis berries ..." Falasca et al.

    ‐--------------------------------------------
    The chemical composition of J. communis essential oils has a wide range of variability depending on several factors: the geographical origin of the plants, the maturity stage, age of the shrub, the climate conditions, the seasonal variations, and the amount of exposure to sunlight (Angioni et al., 2003). In Mediterranean countries, unripe and ripe berry essential oils are mostly of an a-pinene chemotype (Angioni et al., 2003; Lawrence, 2001; Adams, 2000) with an a-pinene content ranging from 27% in samples from Greece (Koukos and Papadopoulou, 1997) 38% in samples from Montenegro (Damjanovic et al., 2006), 43% in samples from Macedonia (Sela et al., 2011) to 62% in samples from Estonia (Orav et al., 2010). J. communis from Sweden showed a high concentration of a-pinene (56.8%) but lacked diterpenes (Adams, 2000). A sabinene chemotype has been found in leaf (40.7%) and berry (36.8%) oils from Iran (altitude of 2000 m) (Shahmir et al., 2003) and India (48.8% in leaf oils) (Pande and Manthela, 2000). A comparative study was conducted in Greece on essential oils from berries (collected at altitude above 1000 m) by headspace analysis and with the classic hydrodistillation procedure. The distilled oils contained mainly a-pinene and were rich in sesquiterpenes, mostly germacrene D (10.4%), b-caryophyllene (2.6%), and a-humulene (2.1%) (Chatzopoulou and Katsiotis, 2006). Previous studies conducted in Italy analyzed J. communis essential oils from Sardinia (Angioni et al., 2003) and the Northwestern Italian Alps (Caramiello et al., 1995). The unripe berry oils from Sardinia contain, predominantly, a-pinene (52%), followed by sabinene (13%), myrcene (8%), and D-germacrene (6%) (Angioni et al., 2003), while sabinene was the main component (41.4%), followed by a-pinene (13.4%) and terpinen-4-ol (8.7%) in the leaves from the Northwestern Italian Alps (Caramiello et al., 1995).
    -------‐--------------------------------------

    So, it looks like the content of main players depends strongly on the origin.
    Anyway sabinene is there , at least in a percentage of like 5%.

  8. #8

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    When I get home I will smell sabinene vs a couple of juniper berry eo's but from memory I don't think by itself it provides enough to suggest specifically juniper berry. (For that matter I don't have any aromachemical that by itself suggested juniper berry to me, nor have I noticed simple combinations that did.) I can see where sabinene is a likely candidate as part of a juniper berry accord, though.

  9. #9

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Trying the Perfumer Search page, http://www.perfumersearch.com/ :

    I see that juniper berry terpenes are offered by major manufacturers, which means that there are major buyers http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/es1007311.html

    I don't think any of our retailers offer it.

    Possibly natural product is used or often is used as part of the claimed juniper berry notes.

    They could of course also use the essential oil at least as part of where they get the note.

    Despite commercial perfumes being largely synthetic and the companies wanting it that way as much as possible, regardless, most of the essential oils being produced around the world are not for us amateurs but are being bought by the big companies. So it's not always the case that aromachemical accords are used. Certainly commonly though a given amount of the natural will be extended with chosen aromachemicals.

  10. #10

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    When I get home I will smell sabinene vs a couple of juniper berry eo's but from memory I don't think by itself it provides enough to suggest specifically juniper berry. (For that matter I don't have any aromachemical that by itself suggested juniper berry to me, nor have I noticed simple combinations that did.) I can see where sabinene is a likely candidate as part of a juniper berry accord, though.
    Now I remember David Ruskin mentioning sabinene was not a necessary ac, if not willing to give or recreate a juniper note.

    I never sampled sabinene, though.

  11. #11

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Quote Originally Posted by pierpaolo72 View Post
    From what i know juniper berries eo should have at least 10% of sabinene.
    The trouble with using naturals is that they may contain the substance you are looking for, but they'll also contain a lot of other substances as well, which may throw off the smell from what you want.

    In other cases, there is virtually no difference between using the synthetic and the natural, because it's the same exact chemical substance in either case. Two examples of this would be cloves and eugenol, violets and ionone.

  12. #12

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Parker,

    your answer, which I agree with, looks a bit off topics, since it is about finding the right representation of a natural, here juniper, with acs.

    My point is then to understand how important sabinene in this goal, since juniper is one of the most rich in it among naturals.

    Saluti,
    Pierpaolo

  13. #13

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Sabinine also can be very high in Litsea cubeba, tarragon, nutmeg, black pepper, carrot seed, laurel leaf, tea tree, and even styrax and neroli bigarade (also from the Essential Oil University database)

    Edit and followup: On re-smelling both the eo's, sabinene does seem to be contributing woody and spicy notes, but in the reverse direction, I don't pick up from sabinine what to me is characteristic of juniper.

    So it could be useful in building a juniper berry accord, but something else will have to make it distinctly juniper.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 19th September 2019 at 11:50 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Bill,

    that's maybe the reason why sabinene was not suggested as an interesting material, not enough to buy ...

    Then the juniper character would be given by a proper accord of a-pinene, b-cariophyllene, myrcene, germacrene and traces of woody acs , like cadinene .

    Do you know any synthetical acs giving juniper character, like coranol if for lavender ??

  15. #15

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    I don't but most definitely don't have exhaustive knowledge.

    For what it's worth -- and I know you've likely already tried this -- for "juniper" odor, not counting herbals and unspecified "replacer" TGSC lists only juniper carboxaldehyde (no supplier listed) and juniparome (sample from Takasago, though Takasago is not listed as a supplier, only BOC Sciences, with juniper arriving at 4th in the notes listing, after rosemary.)

  16. #16

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Bill,
    thanks, also for checking the sabinene

  17. #17

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    If you want juniper I'd honestly buy the Juniper CO2. It's very nice and better than the EO and also better than replacers I have smelled.

  18. #18

    Default Re: searching synthetics - searching equivalents

    Yes,

    I already have Juniper Berries CO2 and it is one of my preferred naturals.




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