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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    I can see similar vibes between the two, but a "vibe" is not enough to define a fragrance a "clone". Clone means exact identical (or at least very similar). Vibe means it's just in the same range (the "categories" of fragrances are limited by the nature of oils, and even with new synthetic aromachemicals, the major notes are always the same from one house to another (booze, vetiver, fruits, flowers, woods, spices, sweet).

    If so, all green vetiver fragrances are clones of Guerlain Vetiver, all leather fragrances are clones of Knize Ten... Doesn't make sense to me using the word clone.
    Of course it is. Aventus, unlike the others you listed, is pretty much a definer of a vibe. It bought its own style to the table due to its combination and juxtaposition of accords - a melody if you will. Other fumes that play a similar tune by borrowing an arrangement here or a structure there will automatically induce an associative memory as that is how the mind works. By your definition of clone there isn't any because nothing out there smells like Aventus, not even Aventus these days as its a totally different scent now.

    You can smell its inspiration running through loads of frags, some that smell nothing like it but still have a resemblance. A lot of the wannabes for example attempt to mimic the combination of the notes whilst others imitate the placement of their notes. Both will make you think of Aventus but by going about it in different ways. Explorer is a great example of this as its a very barebones skeleton riff of Aventus that relies on you already knowing how it should smell so it can pull of its outline interpretation slash olfactive illusion as your mind fills in the gaps.

    A similar scent that had its own vibe was Tuscan Leather. A zillion variations on its theme have plopped onto the market at various price points with some smelling just like it and others quite far off but in all cases it was obvious what they were aiming for due to the vibe that was being aped.



    All scents smell but not all have a vibe.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    My take is that a "clone" is different from a "descendant." The former is almost always a derisive term, suggesting a lesser-than status with the indication that any innovation it makes on a template is uninteresting or unimpressive. The latter is still a compelling creative work in its own right.
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    My take is that a "clone" is different from a "descendant." The former is almost always a derisive term, suggesting a lesser-than status with the indication that any innovation it makes on a template is uninteresting or unimpressive. The latter is still a compelling creative work in its own right.
    Thank you.

    Clones of Aventus: Club de Nuit Intense/Pineapple Vintage Intense: Both these houses try to ape not just Creed, but any other popular or noteworthy house making fragrances people want but may not be able to afford. No different from Classic Match versus Polo

    Descendants of Aventus: Mancera Cedrat Boise/Montblanc Explorer: The former was an early entry into the genre Aventus was helping to create, with a clearly different olfactive identity; the latter is a democratized take on the accord like Cool Water was to GIT, but still clearly different.

    I think in this case the Montblanc is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek "gotcha back" too, since Creed famously riffed on Montblanc Individuel and the industry is too small/interconnected for them to not to talk with one another, considering they all use the same supply chains for aromachemicals. I'm sure Olivier & Co were well aware of Explorer and probably gave it the OK. It will inevitably lead to "if you like X designer, there's a 'better' niche version you should try" kind of upsell in stores that carry both.
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Of course it is. Aventus, unlike the others you listed, is pretty much a definer of a vibe. It bought its own style to the table due to its combination and juxtaposition of accords - a melody if you will.

    A similar scent that had its own vibe was Tuscan Leather.
    Ok.

    Carven was the first to use vetiver as the main player in a fragrance, and that a lot of vetivers arrived after that and have - obviously - strong similarities due to vetiver smell.
    So, according to you, Guerlain Vetiver, Malle Vetiver Extraordinaire, Lalique Encre Noire, Givenchy Vetiver and Terre d'Hermes are all clones of Carven Vetiver right?
    (on a side note, Aventus was far from being the first one to use the pineapple note, just the one doing some great marketing. Also, the only novelty of Tuscan Leather is to have been the first to use a new aromachemical for leather provided by some chemicals company, that others after that have also used. The "typical" smell of TL is not about the blend. So the leather scent you recognize doesn't "smell like TL", but like the new chemical they sold to tom ford - and that many others used also in their blends).

    https://media.giphy.com/media/pPhyAv...FJH/200w_d.gif

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    My take is that a "clone" is different from a "descendant." The former is almost always a derisive term, suggesting a lesser-than status with the indication that any innovation it makes on a template is uninteresting or unimpressive. The latter is still a compelling creative work in its own right.
    Thank you for putting the right words on my thoughts.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?


  6. #36

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    The point? Exchanging ideas and opinions about fragrances, maybe? That's what most of the users of this forum are here for. Now... as for the finality, there's none indeed. It's just about a hobby, not bringing science forward. Does that answer the question?

  7. #37

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    100% with you regarding 'similar vibe =/= clone'.

    But I also agree with Palmolive that Aventus was the "definer of the vibe", because that doesn't solely depend on marketing but also on the composition itself.

    When we discussed who the real perfumeur behind Aventus was (another thread, just theories btw) we surprisingly found lots of fragrances with strikingly similar notes to Aventus. And those fragrances were release prior to Aventus. But they either weren't hyped at all or discontinued after short period of time. And others were just bad in terms of blend/smell.

    And saying that the use of a new AC for leather in TL is the only novelty of TL is also pretty ignorant That's the only thing necessary for it having the 'new vibe' then (fyi: I don't like TL).

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    The point? Exchanging ideas and opinions about fragrances, maybe? That's what most of the users of this forum are here for. Now... as for the finality, there's none indeed. It's just about a hobby, not bringing science forward. Does that answer the question?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    This is worth a try -

    50 sprays a day keeps the doc away

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  10. #40

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Sarcasm is uselessly provocative. Very immature.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    Thank you for your useful contribution!

  12. #42

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    I would suggest to try out Loewe Esencia EdP - however that one isn't a cheapie.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemelimelle View Post
    *falls down laughing!!!*
    You can share my popcorn.
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    Sarcasm is uselessly provocative. Very immature.
    Seeing as you hypocritically and stealthily edited your initial sarcasm that I'd replied to in kind I'll elucidate:

    It seems you aren't getting the gist of what I say, possibly due to English not being your first language I'd hazard a guess or you're just being deliberately obtuse. Either way there is no benefit in me conversing any further with you on this topic because it would be much like this pencil:


  15. #45

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Y4S_58 View Post
    And saying that the use of a new AC for leather in TL is the only novelty of TL is also pretty ignorant That's the only thing necessary for it having the 'new vibe' then (fyi: I don't like TL).
    No, but for sure the new (at the time) version of birch tar-like chemical (aka leather note) is what made the fragrance gets its attention and commercial success, the same molecule that gave its success to AC Oud Saphir and AdP Colonia Leather. (the perfumers for the latter two did not "reverse engineer" Tuscan Leather, they just used the same main molecule, and they result being quite similar, despite the other notes that are different).
    A little like Givaudan's Agarwood Orpur, that gave its success to TF Oud Wood, Versace Oud Noir, Dunhill Icon Absolute... The only hint of genius of Tom Ford is being the first to use this new molecule before the others did, and what the noses are getting pleasure from (or what people will remember as -supposedly - "specific" of these frags) in all these 3 frags is mostly form this Givaudan molecule.
    All that to say that the kudos should be given to the chemists more than the perfumers or the houses, and that different houses, more often than not are not trying to create "clones", just that all these houses are sourcing their molecules at the same places, and that homogenizes the offering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Seeing as you hypocritically and stealthily edited your initial sarcasm that I'd replied to in kind I'll elucidate:

    It seems you aren't getting the gist of what I say, possibly due to English not being your first language I'd hazard a guess or you're just being deliberately obtuse. Either way there is no benefit in me conversing any further with you on this topic because it would be much like this pencil:


    I edited immediately after writing it, before your reply had appeared. Don't worry, I perfectly got what you said, and it is regrettable to use the language as an excuse for your sarcasm.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    I edited immediately after writing it, before your reply had appeared. Don't worry, b]I perfectly got what you said[/b], and it is regrettable to use the language as an excuse for your sarcasm.
    Gotcha, deliberately being obtuse then. Say hello to my little ignore list!

  17. #47

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    No, but for sure the new (at the time) version of birch tar-like chemical (aka leather note) is what made the fragrance gets its attention and commercial success, the same molecule that gave its success to AC Oud Saphir and AdP Colonia Leather. (the perfumers for the latter two did not "reverse engineer" Tuscan Leather, they just used the same main molecule, and they result being quite similar, despite the other notes that are different).
    A little like Givaudan's Agarwood Orpur, that gave its success to TF Oud Wood, Versace Oud Noir, Dunhill Icon Absolute... The only hint of genius of Tom Ford is being the first to use this new molecule before the others did, and what the noses are getting pleasure from (or what people will remember as -supposedly - "specific" of these frags) in all these 3 frags is mostly form this Givaudan molecule.
    All that to say that the kudos should be given to the chemists more than the perfumers or the houses, and that different houses, more often than not are not trying to create "clones", just that all these houses are sourcing their molecules at the same places, and that homogenizes the offering.

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    I edited immediately after writing it, before your reply had appeared. Don't worry, I perfectly got what you said, and it is regrettable to use the language as an excuse for your sarcasm.
    Ok, I’m definitely not trying to be combative— really have no interest in correcting or insulting — but it seems to me that this isn’t as simple as new molecule == hit fragrance. My father was a chemist at one of the big industrial firms and they absolutely cranked out new aroma chems. This was some time ago and maybe the industry is a lot different now BUT the idea that whoever uses a novel molecule first wins isn’t 100% foolproof. Having access to it first IS DEFINITELY IMPORTANT (that’s why companies keep captive molecules, accords and bases). There’s no doubt that proprietary chemistry is a big part of the business.

    BUT perfumers who blend and balance are very important as are the art directors (like Tom Ford) who have a clear vision of:
    1. What they want.
    2. Who it’s for
    3. How to market it

    Like it or not marketing IS a part of art. Some would say all art is marketing your ideas into someone else’s head. Personally, I think Tuscan Leather’s appeal lies in the notion that “it smells like cocaine” — this, more than any other factor created the impression of opulence, danger, sex etc in people’s minds. I agree: without a novel scent, it would’ve failed miserably. You can’t repackage Obsession and claim it smells like cocaine. People would not be impressed.
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  18. #48

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Gotcha, deliberately being obtuse then. Say hello to my little ignore list!
    Compared to the majority of people, I may. But based on your comments, I actually feel very open-minded compared to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proust_Madeleine View Post
    Like it or not marketing IS a part of art. Some would say all art is marketing your ideas into someone else’s head.
    I disagree. Marketing is the result of market studies. The old style art director that had a "genius idea" that works from concept until market doesn't exist anymore since at least 50 years. (of course, the management has an impact, but very relative). For example, why the success of Gucci Guilty Absolute, is it because of Gualtieri? Because of Morillas? (A bit for sure). But mostly because of a new woody aromachemical, used for the first time, thus "new smelling".
    Before going on the market, different versions of a fragrance are offered for testing to panels of people. Fact is that certain molecules are more mass-appealing than others, and that's why fragrances passing the various steps often contain the same molecules. For a designer fragrance, it has to please 80% of the panel (that's why ambroxan and vanilla frags often end up on the shelves at sephora). For a "bold" fragrances of niche houses, it's just 50% (that's why there are often the same aromachemicals ending up in mass-luxury frags - those are a little less mass appealing to the average joe, but still very crowdpleasing to trained noses). Now they will use AI to work on that, and less human panels.

    Only some houses sometimes do not give a minimum bar, and that's what is giving birth to the most creative fragrances (like some of Etat Libre d'Orange).

  19. #49
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post

    Enough of that.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.
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  20. #50
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by tracerbullet View Post
    Answer: Go to Aventus. Why would you buy an Aventus clone when you haven't even smelt Aventus itself? OP is a troll or absurd.
    Yes, I am an absurd troll. If you go through my post history, this will certainly be revealed.

    I will gladly buy the real deal as soon as you PayPal me the funds to do so. PM me for my PayPal address.

    To everyone else: I did end up buying Al Haramain L'Aventure and I like it quite a bit, despite being similar to CDNIM. IMO, it's heads and shoulders better actually.

    I have still not had my nose on Aventus, for those that are curious.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Painted Klown—

    You can get a small sample of Aventus (or slightly larger decants— I always go for a size with a sprayer) for less than $10 on The Perfumed Court and surely Scent Split, Surrender to Chance, and the basenotes boards. I do think you’d be happier knowing what all the hype was about AND you may find it reassuring that your new purchase of L’Aventure is close enough for your purposes(you might even like the clone better)!
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  22. #52
    Basenotes Junkie painted_klown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proust_Madeleine View Post
    Painted Klown—

    You can get a small sample of Aventus (or slightly larger decants— I always go for a size with a sprayer) for less than $10 on The Perfumed Court and surely Scent Split, Surrender to Chance, and the basenotes boards. I do think you’d be happier knowing what all the hype was about AND you may find it reassuring that your new purchase of L’Aventure is close enough for your purposes(you might even like the clone better)!
    Just wanted to chime in and say thank you for the tip. I have been perusing these sites, and they have a lot of stuff I have been wanting to sample, but cannot find locally. I'm bookmarking these for future reference.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by tracerbullet View Post
    Answer: Go to Aventus. Why would you buy an Aventus clone when you haven't even smelt Aventus itself? OP is a troll or absurd.
    Most threads here are trolls or larps IMO, whether the OPs know it or not - mostly ego stroking masquerading poorly as questions of interest (e.g."What are your top 50 frags not listed in your sig block? Here are mine"), though that's not unusual in any forum of common interest.

    The validity, depth and informational value among the better reviews doesn't seem to carry over to the forums; it's mostly people simply inflicting their personalities upon an area of interest. Again, pretty typical of forums. It's like mining - you end up on a good day with 2-3 gems and a mountain of tailings.
    Currently wearing: Bois du Portugal by Creed

  24. #54

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by ascotnot View Post
    Most threads here are trolls or larps IMO, whether the OPs know it or not - mostly ego stroking masquerading poorly as questions of interest.
    I'm afraid you are confusing a "troll" with "someone who has a diverging opinion" compared to yours. Furthermore I don't see here what is unappropriate in what to OP asked. And one of the reasons why he may not want to try Aventus, is because he 'd rather spend his $300 hard-earned dollars on something else than a fresh-fruity frag that has now become mainstream. For having smelt Aventus myself, I can tell it's nice, but do not understand the pricing, nor its hype. (I mean yes, I understand: the pricing is a direct result of the hype...)

    I find much more a trolling attitude, for example, to bring up Aventus everytime there is a vague pineapple smell in a fragrance, or to deviate on batch/reformulation talk every time one shares that a frag has poor performance. (whatever should be the frag). Like you, it's obviously just my personal opinion.

    "while it is perfectly acceptable to criticise the content of a post - criticising the poster is not."

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    ...when it dries down it just smells like a lemon with dust on it, if that makes sense.
    Hate to say it, but that's how it's supposed to smell.


    Quote Originally Posted by No1up View Post
    I really like PVI, like a smoky pineapple.
    See?

    I personally find the pineapple + forest fire smoke smell to be absolutely disgusting. But lots of people for some reason enjoy it and are willing to pay not just $30 a bottle but $300 to get it.

    I don't understand it myself.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Really disappointed with CDNIM. Where to go next...Parfums Vintage?

    I'll never get people that pay $80 for clones.Just buy a decant of the real thing.




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