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  1. #31

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Exactly, Palmolive. Most of the things we said here are hypothetical and we got a lot of thesis so far, but most of these thesis make a lot of sense and some are even backed by facts (e.g. Creeds not-so-old legacy) And i agree that we already hit the "Who made Creed" question, which is a wonderful subject for further discussions...or may I say investigations

    And believe it or not, I feel exactly the same when smelling Sauvage. It feels artificial and somehow 'cold', in the sense that it doesn't seem to have gotten a "final polish" from a human being hahaha. By saying that, I mean that Dior didn't want it to be "a little bit raw" or "have some edges". I think that they released the fragrance at the earliest opportunity, like the moment the machine gave an output that was "acceptable".

    Think about this (purely hypothetical): The company that created Aventus browses through the database and selects earlier fragrances of Pierre Bourdon that were similar to Aventus (style-wise) and sets them as the "base fragrances" in the machine. Then they set the parameter for the ingredients cost a little bit higher (from 4€ per fragrance to 5€ ) and set the threshold value for the number of ingredients quite low (ala Pierre Bourdon style, mentioned it in an interview afaik). Et voila: Creed Aventus is born!

  2. #32

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Y4S_58 View Post
    Very informative and well thought-out reasoning with the 'Big 3 fragrance and oil companies'. I recently watch this video about Alberto Morillas:

    https://youtu.be/O_hF8PfkBxE

    Around the 7 min. mark, he speaks about the machines that create hundreds of modifications of a fragrance according to the taste/desire of the parfumeur.

    I read an article about a cooperation between Symrise and IBM, who invented a machine called "Philyra". It's basically a machine that works with machine learning and tons of algorithms/formulas (They promote it as advanced machine learning algorithm... So no deep learning i guess )
    Here is the press text/article directly from IBM:

    https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2...ai-fragrances/

    The "robots" in the video and the way Morillas is talks about their functions immediately reminded me of the machines mentioned in the article.
    I guess Firmenich has their own machine that are powered with their own database of formulas etc.

    Now I really want that Pierre Bourdon is the real master parfumeur behind Aventus and not a machine of Givaudan, Firmenich etc.
    This explains so much about the precipitous decline of mainstream fragrance releases.
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Thanks for the info about machine learning there, SharpLess. What do you think about the idea that it may have been automated database operations, although thats also a quite recent "invention"?
    But I guess the idea of Palmolive is very plausible: Pierre Bourdon, maybe with the help of Firmenich, Givaudan or IFF, enhances an "old basic ass formula" by making it thicker and more complex. Maybe even by using his own "old formula".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Right, it's really sad. But the outcome is that we get so many flankers so chances are high that at least one of them has a pleasant smell

  4. #34

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Y4S_58 View Post
    Thanks for the info about machine learning there, SharpLess. What do you think about the idea that it may have been automated database operations, although thats also a quite recent "invention"?
    But I guess the idea of Palmolive is very plausible: Pierre Bourdon, maybe with the help of Firmenich, Givaudan or IFF, enhances an "old basic ass formula" by making it thicker and more complex. Maybe even by using his own "old formula".
    I think a man entering his twilight years and two years removed as a full-time perfumer (prior to the release date of Aventus) to create something so highly refined and well tuned is unlikely. And for a man winding down, to not take credit for it as a financial or business decision seems highly unlikely. If I were him I would not want to work under the guise of anyone else's company and would rather do my own thing. As for Aventus being formulated by a machine using machine-learning, impossible because it didn't exist commercially until well after 2012. However they could have used other methods using databases and other crowd sourced data. But vintage Aventus to me has the hallmarks of a personal touch, a man's experience and journey as a perfumer, it feels very organic.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    I understand what you are saying. I agree with you on the point that Aventus feels very organic and to achieve that, at least at one point of the fragrance development, personal experience from a (master) parfumeur was incorporated into the final formula of Aventus.
    The most predominant reason why I think Bourdon was that guy is that there are way to many popular Creed fragrances linked to his name to believe that its just a bunch of coincidences.
    From an economical point of view, ghost producing may be more lucrative, esp. when you are working for the "super niche, super exclusive" house of Creed.
    Although he may stopped working full time 2 years prior to the release of Aventus as you say, his experience in parfumery doesn't vanish all of a sudden He may also have wrote the formula before the two years of his pause.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Y4S_58 View Post

    Right, it's really sad. But the outcome is that we get so many flankers so chances are high that at least one of them has a pleasant smell
    But with so many to wade through, who has the time and resources to find the few decent ones?

    Sigh.
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Bourdon has nothing to prove. He is already highly revered and accomplished as a nose, hence why he probably wouldn't say anything if he is the perfumer, for now anyway. Its not like the man’s a one hit wonder. Most perfumers would relish having one of his greatest hits. If, and I emphasise if, he is the perfumer he probably has a non-disclosure agreement and will just wait for a posthumous release of his memoirs to say....

    Aluminium = Alzheimer’s

    (My view on aluminium containing antiperspirants)
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  8. #38

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    But with so many to wade through, who has the time and resources to find the few decent ones?

    Sigh.
    Thats the real problem. But luckily, we can at least try most of the designer fragrances in local stores, unlike super niche fragrances. And because of that, more people have access to them and we can rely on reviews, if they seem approx. similar and share similar opinions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    Bourdon has nothing to prove. He is already highly revered and accomplished as a nose, hence why he probably wouldn't say anything if he is the perfumer, for now anyway. Its not like the man’s a one hit wonder. Most perfumers would relish having one of his greatest hits. If, and I emphasise if, he is the perfumer he probably has a non-disclosure agreement and will just wait for a posthumous release of his memoirs to say....

    True, there is definitely a non disclosure agreement.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Legacy over money, especially in someone's twilight years. Also it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Creed is copying these popular perfumes and using very high end ingredients as a way of tweaking and improving them. That last bit was funny though.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by SharpLess View Post
    Legacy over money, especially in someone's twilight years. Also it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Creed is copying these popular perfumes and using very high end ingredients as a way of tweaking and improving them. That last bit was funny though.
    Anmerkung1.jpg

    Comparison between Pierre Bourdon and Alberto Morillas (the peak at the end of the graph might be due to more people interested in the persona of Morillas because of Jeremy Fragrance etc.)

    Anmerkung.jpg

    And here, I brought in Francis Kurkdjian. They both lose against him when it comes to popularity Obviously, because he has his own fragrance brand.

    And guys, I advise you to use DuckDuckGo instead of Google as your main search engine

    PS. : I see what you did there, SharpLess

  11. #41

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Yeah, I edited out the Google search results part because it's silly, perfumers in general aren't widely known. I believe any well versed perfumer doing it their whole life was capable of creating Aventus, sometimes people get lucky and most of the best things in life were mistakes to begin with. That being said, Aventus was not possible without the inspirations that led up to it including Purple Label and many well structured chypres. The art world is all about copying and improvising someone else's work, nothing is sacred.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by SharpLess View Post
    Yeah, I edited out the Google search results part because it's silly, perfumers in general aren't widely known. I believe any well versed perfumer doing it their whole life was capable of creating Aventus, sometimes people get lucky and most of the best things in life were mistakes to begin with.
    Right, with Montblanc Explorer, there are even 3 parfumeurs who collectively tried their luck

  13. #43

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    The speculation is fun though isn't it?! I love a good counter argument.

    Montblanc Explorer is a lot more like CDNIM than Aventus, smoother with the ambroxan but nothing new under the sun.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    There was a thread for Montblanc Explorer and I said that I would't pay the price they ask for it at the moment. Like you said, it's nothing new under the sun and I couldn't care less for it. But when it hits the discounters, it's a decent clone for the price (maybe 20-30€ per 100ml) nonetheless.

    But we already drifted off topic here and this thread has great potential to become a good source of information

  15. #45

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    I hope the forum upgrade has a better ignore feature as the current one still manages to insult my eyes whenever someone quotes whoever is on it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    Bourdon has nothing to prove. He is already highly revered and accomplished as a nose, hence why he probably wouldn't say anything if he is the perfumer, for now anyway. Its not like the man’s a one hit wonder. Most perfumers would relish having one of his greatest hits. If, and I emphasise if, he is the perfumer he probably has a non-disclosure agreement and will just wait for a posthumous release of his memoirs to say....
    Mans get it. What better way to start a venture (see what I did there?) than by standing on the shoulders of giants and then saying "I'm really this tall, you know?"

    To me it all makes perfect sense and he fits well into the puzzle given his previous hits, associations with the house, similarities of other compositions and the zillion other points pontificated thus far plus with those sweet, sweet NDA royalty payments he'd be stacking far more cash than he ever had from any other release in his catalogue and that in turn would assure fiscal security for the next generation which is often a prime motivator when you've climbed the peaks of social recognition repeatedly because cash seems to remain king...

    Either way, interesting discussion folks.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    this is a great theory and i have even more fuel for it via the Purple Label connection. either way Bourdon is brilliant and one of the true 'Master Perfumers'. however there's some discussion on FB and a guy is claiming to have met and know the real nose and none of it provable but very interesting nonetheless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    was just looking for info on the supposed nose and his perfumes and i actually think we have a winner:

    https://www.luckyscent.com/perfumers...stophe-herault

    'He met legendary perfumer Pierre Bourdon and begged him to mentor him, which Bourdon agreed to under the condition that Herault discover the wider world of art and culture as well- literature, cuisine, visual art. Herault credits this with developing his artistic sensibilities and furthering his creativity in his own work.'

    so the Bourdon connection was there all along, this guy is basically his main apprentice

    it also stands to reason that even if he was the final nose Bourdon worked on aspects of the Aventus DNA prior to that like you're saying with Purple Label and this chap just took it a stage further.

    https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...musk-1482.html

    created by Bourdon in 2007 and look at the notes!

    'Its like a mix of ralph lauren purple label and versace metal jeans. It has a nice crisp almost sour vibe to it, and the blackcurrant gives it a unique twist. Its a great musk thats clean and inoffensive'

    sour musky vibe, seems familiar huh.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Heh. Check this one out by Herault as well, released a year before Aventus: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...1934-7829.html

    And this one: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lue-25966.html

    ....and this one: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lky-14315.html

    It really seems like he loves the musky pineapple, blackcurrant, patchouli and vetiver combo! I mean...who wouldn't though?

  18. #48

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack103 View Post
    Heh. Check this one out by Herault as well, released a year before Aventus: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...1934-7829.html

    And this one: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lue-25966.html

    ....and this one: https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lky-14315.html

    It really seems like he loves the musky pineapple, blackcurrant, patchouli and vetiver combo! I mean...who wouldn't though?
    great find! quite a few of his frags feature Aventus type notes, namely apple in the mids (one of my favourite aspects of Aventus) and perhaps Aventus Sport aka Bargain Bin Edition already came around too...

    https://www.fragrantica.com/perfume/...lue-25966.html

    so multiple frags with pineapple notes (two of which released before Aventus) and mentored closely by Bourdon. i think this is the man and it was likely a collaboration of sorts.

    on the Canali frag 'This is really an underrated perfum, doesnt have any recognition for it fragrance. I smell it smokey pepper pinapple and blackcurrent without it being to fruity which is really never seen in any fragrance that I have smelt before.'

    pre-vintage Aventus, 2009 batch!

    and you can't find it anywhere! i wonder if production was ceased or cut short by fragrance powers that be when a certain 2010 release hit the market.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    And another piece in the puzzle... Great find, guys!

    Here is another supporting fact about Bourdon being the mentor of Herault: According to Parfumo, Bourdon created Canali Men (2005) and Canali Men Prestige, (2008), which both share a lot of notes that Herault uses. Or vice versa.

    And I found a really good hint here, where a user said that Bourdon suggested Creed to use a gunpowder accord in Himalaya.
    Guess who also used the gunpowder note?

    Correct! Herault for the fragrance Amazingreen (2012) from CdG! 10 years after Himalaya was released.

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/296...ew-information

  20. #50

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Well I'll be! I was PMd this name earlier on today and just logged in to find this all in full swing.

    Things like this are why I really like the BN community cos we nerd out good and proper!

    Will have to look into the latest posts when I get a sec but I'll say I've gone from "Nah" to "Wait a minute..." to "Could it be?" as that mentoring connection is nigh on a smoking gun and it fits with a lot of the pieces we've already got.

    We'll have to track down those work in progress fragrances to see how they smell as it all definitely points to Aventus being a work in progress with many pre release versions before the final take.

    Great finds folks!

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Let the guessing and speculating come to an end....

    I am the nose behind Aventus

  22. #52

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Well I'll be! I was PMd this name earlier on today and just logged in to find this all in full swing.

    Things like this are why I really like the BN community cos we nerd out good and proper!

    Will have to look into the latest posts when I get a sec but I'll say I've gone from "Nah" to "Wait a minute..." to "Could it be?" as that mentoring connection is nigh on a smoking gun and it fits with a lot of the pieces we've already got.

    We'll have to track down those work in progress fragrances to see how they smell as it all definitely points to Aventus being a work in progress with many pre release versions before the final take.

    Great finds folks!
    it sounds like the Canali fragrance is the 'smoking' gun, a smokey pineapple/fruity fragrance released one year before Aventus with many of the same notes and unlike anything people had smelled before if the one short review is anything to go by. but it seems nigh-on impossible to obtain so will take some detective work to potentially source a bottle.

    but the rest of Bourdon/Herault's work before and around the release of Aventus could well fill in more of the gaps on how Aventus came to be. there could even be some clues on how the 'modern' version was derived as the smokey element is so distinct and different from the formula 2014-present. looks like there were quite a few releases that went in a more sour musky/floral fruity direction (or just straight woody vs smokey) which sounds much more like the modern incarnation.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah1919 View Post
    Let the guessing and speculating come to an end....

    I am the nose behind Aventus
    Umm...can I talk with you for a second?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Things like this are why I really like the BN community cos we nerd out good and proper!
    This.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Only a scent with such a weirdly quasi-mythic status could inspire such detective work. I'll be interested to see how this thread develops, especially if folks start picking up and reviewing some of the "Aventus prototypes" mentioned thus far.
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  25. #55

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
    but it seems nigh-on impossible to obtain so will take some detective work to potentially source a bottle.
    I found one guy from Azerbaijan who sells a bottle of Canali - dal 1934 on ebay. 400€ he wants... I already sent him a message to ask for a discount, lets see

    But I'm so curious right now that I would even consider doing a split/start a sharing or something like that. But to do that, we need a few people willing to participate and realisticly speaking, if the fragrance would't be so rare, it would be at the discounters easily.

    PS: Maybe it's just highly speculative but the only person who "reviewed" it on fragrantica has the nickname "AZ" and based on his reviews, he is located somewhere in the UAE, maybe works there or visits UAE frequently. Maybe he is the guy who is selling it on ebay But thats a little bit to speculative, I must admit.
    But the fragrance might be still available somewhere in Eastern Europe, Italia or UAE. Will see if I can find it at the discounters here in Germany.

    Oh man, we really do detective work for Canali fragrances here

  26. #56

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Y4S_58 View Post
    I found one guy from Azerbaijan who sells a bottle of Canali - dal 1934 on ebay. 400€ he wants... I already sent him a message to ask for a discount, lets see

    But I'm so curious right now that I would even consider doing a split/start a sharing or something like that. But to do that, we need a few people willing to participate and realisticly speaking, if the fragrance would't be so rare, it would be at the discounters easily.

    PS: Maybe it's just highly speculative but the only person who "reviewed" it on fragrantica has the nickname "AZ" and based on his reviews, he is located somewhere in the UAE, maybe works there or visits UAE frequently. Maybe he is the guy who is selling it on ebay But thats a little bit to speculative, I must admit.
    But the fragrance might be still available somewhere in Eastern Europe, Italia or UAE. Will see if I can find it at the discounters here in Germany.
    £400 that sounds like a vintage Aventus alright

    interestingly looks like Canali frags retail for a high price so there's every chance of there being quality ingredients in it (ie closer to OG Aventus than we may have thought).

  27. #57

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfred View Post
    it sounds like the Canali fragrance is the 'smoking' gun, a smokey pineapple/fruity fragrance released one year before Aventus with many of the same notes and unlike anything people had smelled before if the one short review is anything to go by. but it seems nigh-on impossible to obtain so will take some detective work to potentially source a bottle.

    but the rest of Bourdon/Herault's work before and around the release of Aventus could well fill in more of the gaps on how Aventus came to be. there could even be some clues on how the 'modern' version was derived as the smokey element is so distinct and different from the formula 2014-present. looks like there were quite a few releases that went in a more sour musky/floral fruity direction (or just straight woody vs smokey) which sounds much more like the modern incarnation.
    Its interesting how so many of the protoAventi that flew under the radar are now also next to impossible to find anyway as that speaks volumes. A while back I was talking to a Stateside BNer about Purple Label being a prototype when I was first putting this theory together and he shared an interesting snippet that it was virtually hidden away in their retail store unlike their other fragrances which were much more prominently displayed. Make of that what you will.

    I do wonder how much of Aventus was purely him though because whilst I haven't smelled any of his rough drafts the scents from his catalogue that I have tried before didn't wow me like that whereas there are a lot of "tells" in Bourdons catalogue but either way he's an interesting piece of the puzzle. Bourdon being a heavy smoker though, man that one is just too close to overlook because only a smoker would even think of coming up with that combination of clean and dirty but then we've also got the earlier Fremont thing as well...

    Theres a bottle of Canali dal 1934 on eBay with 2 nice red flags:

    Price - £330
    Location - Azerbaijan

    LOL! Another seller (also handily from Azerbaijan) is selling cloned samples masquerading as decants so that tells you what you need to know there. Hopefully the guy who just bought a sample after reading this thread would care to chime in with his thoughts once it arrives.

  28. #58

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Hahaha my thoughts exactly! For that price, I make a quick call and ask my friend Herault to remake the fragrance in front of my eyes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    LOL! Another seller (also handily from Azerbaijan) is selling cloned samples masquerading as decants so that tells you what you need to know there. Hopefully the guy who just bought a sample after reading this thread would care to chime in with his thoughts once it arrives.
    Yep, also saw that one. The typical 'oil to perfume' conversion going on there.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    I bought it guys

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will chime in how close it it to my vintage Aventus

  30. #60

    Default Re: Creed Aventus was obviously made by...

    Quote Originally Posted by aroma.styles View Post
    I bought it guys

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will chime in how close it it to my vintage Aventus
    #grail

    send us a sample! pls




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