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  1. #1

    Default Menardo's Gaiac 10

    I haven't been able to find a publicly available GC-MS of Annick Menardo's Gaiac 10 for Le Labo Tokyo. Does anyone here have any idea - informed speculation, 'a little bird told me' - what might be in it? Laying out what information I already have:

    a) Its listed notes are guaiacwood, cedar, olibanum, and musk.
    b) Some versions of the list specify cedar absolute, for which GSC lists Atlas and Himalayan options.
    c) Some versions ditto mention that there are four musks.
    d) By nose, it's very likely that Iso E Super and Ambrox are major ingredients.
    e) If the naming convention is truthful, there are 10 components in all. If we count Iso E, Ambrox, musks 1 through 4, and a cedar absolute, then we're 70% of the way there. If we speculate that the guaiac and incense are plausibly both naturals (anything's possible at that price!), we're 90% of the way there.
    f) Reviewers have compared it to CdG Kyoto, CdG Wonderwood, Glossier You, and Voyage d'Hermes, so anything known about their formulae might be a hint.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    "According to scent and chamistry"
    Helvetolide and Galaxolide galore, making up ⅓ of the formula almost, backed up with a some Muscenone and Ambrettolide
    irone α, a touch of iris absolute and verdyl acetate with its sweet anisic greeness.
    Lyral and Lilial, hydroxycitroellal, linalyl acetate and dihydromyrcenol
    over of the formula consisting of Iso E Super.
    Ambrox galore, almost 12%
    pink pepper
    cashmeran.

    wonderwood a wood soliflore has combo of pashminol and javanol. javanol overdose,
    The complexity of 'Wonderwood' brings vetiver, Guaiac, cedar and agarwood aspects into play

    Apparently all 4 have a lot of musky and woody ac's in common.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    "According to scent and chamistry"
    Thank you. To be clear, are you talking about Gaiac 10 here, or do you mean one of the other ones?
    None of what you mention here would surprise me for Gaiac, except the muguet ingredients, which I don't smell at all.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    The first one was glossier your sorry that wasn't clearer. But if they share similarities that is one that I found the most complete info on.

  5. #5

    Thumbs up Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    "According to scent and chamistry"
    Helvetolide and Galaxolide galore, making up ⅓ of the formula almost, backed up with a some Muscenone and Ambrettolide
    irone α, a touch of iris absolute and verdyl acetate with its sweet anisic greeness.
    Lyral and Lilial, hydroxycitroellal, linalyl acetate and dihydromyrcenol
    over of the formula consisting of Iso E Super.
    Ambrox galore, almost 12%
    pink pepper
    cashmeran.

    wonderwood a wood soliflore has combo of pashminol and javanol. javanol overdose,
    The complexity of 'Wonderwood' brings vetiver, Guaiac, cedar and agarwood aspects into play

    Apparently all 4 have a lot of musky and woody ac's in common.

    what a great, valuable information. I really appreciate that. I had the book but I never think about to open to find such thing... just read the article about molecules...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    I want to say I picked up on lots of Habanolide in Guaiac 10 when I was asked if I could recreate it for a friend... This was over a year ago so my memory is foggy. It's definitely heavy on the white musks though.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    The first one was glossier your sorry that wasn't clearer. But if they share similarities that is one that I found the most complete info on.
    Ahh, thank you, that makes more sense. I think you're right, they're probably highly similar since Glossier You is said to be inspired by Gaiac 10.

    Looking through my "what is used in what" file (does anyone else keep one of those?), Kyoto is 55% Iso E.
    As for Wonderwood's Javanol (my file says 4.8%), I've yet to smell Javanol pure so I can't spot it 'in the wild.' In traces it could hypothetically be contributing to the woody-creamy-rosy guaiac note, but I hear that Javanol is very powerful so I'd be surprised to find it in such a subtle skin scent.

    About the 4 mystery musks:

    Examining my small bottle of Gaiac 10 on a cold morning, crystals have formed on the atomizer head, so I think that almost proves the presence of cashmeran. (Meanwhile in the next room my vial of pure cashmeran has solidified completely. Maybe I should turn the thermostat up.) Does anyone recall at what concentration cashmeran begins to drop out of solution? That could be a hint to its probable level in the formula.

    Comparing it by nose to Bulgari Omnia, I also suspect that Helvetolide is a major player.

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    I want to say I picked up on lots of Habanolide in Guaiac 10 when I was asked if I could recreate it for a friend... This was over a year ago so my memory is foggy. It's definitely heavy on the white musks though.
    I tend to agree, and it would be the obvious choice. 'Clean'/cotton-linen musk is perhaps the most preferred note in Japan. (Here's a Takasago patent for a Habanolide-based 'stress-relieving' musk-sandalwood formula that is pretty typical.) I've got a Globalide sample, I'll try checking it against that.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the fourth is ambrettolide, which would play well with the woody and slightly anisic elements. I can't yet pick that one out by nose reliably, though, so that's more of an informed guess.

    As for the mystery 10th ingredient, I may have overlooked the obvious: evernyl. Smacked my forehead while reading this old thread about creating a Gaiac 10 imitation. It would complement the greenness and slight phenolic quality of the woods, but be less bracing than true oakmoss.

    So, speculative ingredients list in no particular order:

    1) Guaiacwood oil (or potentially the Robertet 'Heart' for clean softness and minimal smoke)
    2) Frankincense (probably resinoid, since it's not noticeably terpenic)
    3) Atlas cedar absolute
    4) Cashmeran
    5) Habanolide
    6) Helvetolide
    7) Ambrettolide
    8) Ambrox
    9) Iso E Super (lots, used almost as a solvent)
    10) Evernyl

    ... whether that's accurate to the original or not, it looks like a great idea for a formula. I may have a new project.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    I wouldn't bet on crystallization as the confirmation of Cashmeran; you should be able to smell it, it's very powerful/noticeable unless it's just a trace (esp in such a transparent blend). Also, Evernyl is solid at room temp.

    I did my own spin on Rose 31, and I have Cashmeran @ 0.2% so there's that... gives a nice texture.

    If there's Limonene listed on the ingredients list, it probably has frankincense EO. Just a thought.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    I want to say I picked up on lots of Habanolide in Guaiac 10 when I was asked if I could recreate it for a friend... This was over a year ago so my memory is foggy. It's definitely heavy on the white musks though.
    I also get a lot of Habanolide from Gaiac 10! I decided to put together my own formula based on what others have already listed and what I have available.

    Guaic Heart Robertet 50% .20g
    Ambrofix 10% .33g
    Olibanum Oleoresin 30% (from Pell Wall) .30g
    Exaltolide 50% .015g
    Habanolide .10g
    Ambrettolide .005g
    Cashmeran .01g
    Romandolide .05g
    Cedramber .05g
    Sylvamber .20g (Running low on IES)

    This is diluted in 10g of Alcohol. Sorry these aren't in percentages!

    It's definitely not all the way there, but I feel like I'm getting close and the combination of ambroxan and habanolide makes for a really nice dry down. The Exaltolide seems to mask the other musks, so I may just omit that. I also want to try swapping out the Cedramber for the Robertet Atlas Heart, which I just ordered.

    Would love to hear if anyone else has tried any further with this one.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    How does Guaic Heart Robertet compare to regular old guaic e.o.?
    I have been told that the finest Guaic materials don`t actually have a "bacon smell," to them... is this true?

    Thanks so much,
    fellow Vancouver dude,
    Matt

  11. #11

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Guaiac Heart (R) is very soft, no bacon/phenolic smoke to it.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Greetings Matt! Good to see someone else from Vancouver here!

    As Runstile mentioned, there is no bacon or BBQ note to the Guaiac Heart. I do detect a very faint smokiness to it, but it's quite clean and won't muddy a blend in the same way that any of the Phenol heavy ingredients would.

    Can anyone confirm wether Helvetolide is used in Gaiac 10? It's the one musk I don't have...

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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    Guaiac Heart (R) is very soft, no bacon/phenolic smoke to it.
    Good to know.
    As I understand it, high quality Guaiac e.o. also has NO bacon/ very very little bacon scent to it as well.
    Many believe that the "bacon scent," IS what gives Guaiac that unique scent. Very wrong.

    ...so much to learn.

    Kinda off topic, but for any newbies out there (like me)
    GOOD (plain) Bergamot Essential oil is GREEN in colour.


    Not yellow, not brown.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Arctander says guiaicwood should smell 'delicately sweet, rosy-woody ... but it ... may have a "smoked ham" odor. He goes on 'it is conceivable that this odor, which was never reported before WWII, occurs in oils that have been "forced" ... through the addition of mineral acid to the chopped, wet wood in the still. This increases the yield of oil but it also increases the risk of spot-burning' and hence off notes that could be described as bacon.
    He goes on to state 'the age of the wood ... also has some influence upon the odor of the oil.'
    He also warns that guiaic is occasionally adulterated with copaiba balsam.

    So it seems you're right, good guiaic doesn't smell of bacon. According to him it should smell 'tearose-like.'
    Hope this helps.

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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Yeah, I know....good guaic definitely doesn't have bacon smell. Good vetiver too, shouldn't be overly bitter. It's when they speed up production, use too much heat or cheap equipement that you end up with overly smokey, bitter essential oils.

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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Off topic; good vetiver is as smooth and buttery as a baby's bottom. Good rose is fruity and powdery, like cherry and liche (lichee?) Good rose should almost have a cartoon, fruity sweetness to it...same with rose geranium, it should strong strong cherry cola top notes as well. Good patchouli is soft, sweet with notes of chocolate, fennel and coffee. It should also have an aquatic, cool damp aspect to it.

    None of the above should be harsh or bitter in anyway, including vetiver.

    Most vetiver and patchouli for purchase is harsh, combat this with using 50/50 patchol, or double distilled vetiver, or some vetiver isolate.

    You can age patchouli and vetiver, or any other natural basenote and it will get rounder, less harsh.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by IKL View Post
    Greetings Matt! Good to see someone else from Vancouver here!

    As Runstile mentioned, there is no bacon or BBQ note to the Guaiac Heart. I do detect a very faint smokiness to it, but it's quite clean and won't muddy a blend in the same way that any of the Phenol heavy ingredients would.

    Can anyone confirm wether Helvetolide is used in Gaiac 10? It's the one musk I don't have...

    So I was actually in Tokyo last month, and I sprayed a generous amount of Guaiac 10 on my jacket sleeve so I could sample it. I picked up on a ton of musks again, and late in the dry down I smelled Cashmeran and something like Tonalide or a fougere-ish note, perhaps along with some Evernyl (maybe not, could have been another big musk like the ones mentioned above, but the overall accord was an animal/musk tonkin vibe). I also picked up on some sweetness in there,maybe along the lines of vanillin/maltol/whiskey lactone, or another lactone (I am inexperienced on those). If you look up the ingredients, you'll see Hydroxycitronellal on it so add that to the list of 10.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    So I was actually in Tokyo last month, and I sprayed a generous amount of Guaiac 10 on my jacket sleeve so I could sample it. I picked up on a ton of musks again, and late in the dry down I smelled Cashmeran and something like Tonalide or a fougere-ish note, perhaps along with some Evernyl (maybe not, could have been another big musk like the ones mentioned above, but the overall accord was an animal/musk tonkin vibe). I also picked up on some sweetness in there,maybe along the lines of vanillin/maltol/whiskey lactone, or another lactone (I am inexperienced on those).
    Thanks for this. You're right that there's a sweetness to it, though I suspect that's an effect of the musks.

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    If you look up the ingredients, you'll see Hydroxycitronellal on it so add that to the list of 10.
    Good catch! Can't believe I missed that.

    So, revised 'confirmed' list:

    1) Guaiacwood (possibly 'Coeur')
    2) Frankincense
    3) Cedrus spp. absolute
    4) Hydroxycitronellal
    5) Musk 1
    6) Musk 2
    7) Musk 3
    8) Musk 4
    9) ?
    10) ?

    I've noticed that one of the musks lingers on cloth after washing, making me suspect Galaxolide.
    After the latest round of ingredient orders I have most of these components available for comparison. I'll update this post when I get the opportunity to run some tests.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    So I was actually in Tokyo last month, and I sprayed a generous amount of Guaiac 10 on my jacket sleeve so I could sample it. I picked up on a ton of musks again, and late in the dry down I smelled Cashmeran and something like Tonalide or a fougere-ish note, perhaps along with some Evernyl (maybe not, could have been another big musk like the ones mentioned above, but the overall accord was an animal/musk tonkin vibe). I also picked up on some sweetness in there,maybe along the lines of vanillin/maltol/whiskey lactone, or another lactone (I am inexperienced on those). If you look up the ingredients, you'll see Hydroxycitronellal on it so add that to the list of 10.
    I never thought to read the package! I was thinking that perhaps there had been Lyral in there, so Hydroxycitronellal makes sense. I also get a Tonalide vibe from it. The most success I've had was a combination of Cashmeran, Tonalide, Habanolide and Ethylene Brassylate.

    I've also seen several different sites mention Cedar Absolute, which seems to refer to White Cedar (Thuja Occidentalis) when input into google. I actually have several varieties of white cedar, as it's quite common in Canada and they are all reminiscent of cypress. I'm assuming this is used to build upon the Olibanum.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Menardo's Gaiac 10

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    Thanks for this. You're right that there's a sweetness to it, though I suspect that's an effect of the musks.



    Good catch! Can't believe I missed that.

    So, revised 'confirmed' list:
    1) Guaiacwood (possibly 'Coeur')
    2) Frankincense
    3) Cedrus spp. absolute
    4) Hydroxycitronellal
    5) Musk 1
    6) Musk 2
    7) Musk 3
    8) Musk 4
    9) ?
    10) ?

    I've noticed that one of the musks lingers on cloth after washing, making me suspect Galaxolide.
    After the latest round of ingredient orders I have most of these components available for comparison. I'll update this post when I get the opportunity to run some tests.

    I'm w Septime, I suspect more Tonalide than Galaxolide here.

    For the last two, Evernyl and Hedione?





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