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  1. #1
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    Default 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Hey there, you beautiful lot.

    I'm browsing t'internet and a thought has crossed my mind. I've often seen 'x has been neutered, it has no real civet/reduction in civet/no more civet' or 'y is not what it used to be, there is only pesky fake oakmoss!' statements when discussing reformulations and IFRA-compliant fragrances in this day and age.

    I've seen sources of Civet tinctures, approximately 5% in ethanol, before and I'm aware of some oakmoss growths close to where I live.

    Has/does anyone use something like a 5% civet tincture, or oakmoss extract to bolster their fragrances? Would it give a 'nouveau' iteration of a perfume some 'vintageness'?

  2. #2
    Basenotes Junkie Shemelimelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    *scratches head* Hey there Benz3ne. *clumsily waves* I think this post belongs in the D.I.Y. forum. *scratches head again* This looks like something I would do without meaning to.
    “You are the bait. The bait is you.” ~Trick or Treat (1986)
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    “Thrrrow yourselves into the river, dahlings!” ~Withnail and I (1987)

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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemelimelle View Post
    *scratches head* Hey there Benz3ne. *clumsily waves* I think this post belongs in the D.I.Y. forum. *scratches head again* This looks like something I would do without meaning to.
    I thought about it going in the DIY forum but the specific goal is to try and achieve something vintage. Ergo, thought I’d ask the Vintage crew to see whether anyone had focussed their efforts towards what they know, rather than DIY’ing a fragrance from scratch.

    Let’s see if anyone else chimes in.

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    Basenotes Junkie Shemelimelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Okay.
    “You are the bait. The bait is you.” ~Trick or Treat (1986)
    “Have a good time, all the time. That is my philosophy.” ~This Is Spinal Tap (1984)
    “Thrrrow yourselves into the river, dahlings!” ~Withnail and I (1987)

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Hello Benz3ne--

    I've read about this approach but I don't do it myself.

    I prefer not to tinker. When a perfume works, I believe it is a result of the overall composition, its blending and its balance. I love the seamless blending of ingredients in vintage perfumes, and I find the exercise of "picking out notes" to be pointless when I am experiencing a truly great perfume: I just want to wallow it. In other words, I don't usually inhale my favorite vintage perfumes and think "Yaasss!!! Oakmoss!"

    When a classic is reformulated, the whole composition seems to be adjusted and altered. Whenever I have tested current versions of perfumes that I love in their vintage form, I've never thought that the addition of one or two ingredients could fix them. I suppose it can't hurt to try.

    Modern niche perfumes tend to have more delineated structures of notes, as if the perfumers intend for them to be read and deconstructed. It's a different and more minimal aesthetic. And we have entire perfume lines that are supposedly designed to be layered: Jo Malone. In these instances, I've never felt that the sum of the parts would add up to a more worthwhile whole. On the other hand, I have sometimes thought that the addition of some natural ingredient--jasmine or galbanum or oakmoss--might improve a niche perfume I am testing when the composition seems to be especially unadorned. I should try this and see.

    I'm curious to hear how your experiments turn out, if you decide to give this a whirl.
    Currently wearing: Muse by Coty

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    Basenotes Junkie Shemelimelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    grayspoole, your words smell of the wisdom of the ages.
    “You are the bait. The bait is you.” ~Trick or Treat (1986)
    “Have a good time, all the time. That is my philosophy.” ~This Is Spinal Tap (1984)
    “Thrrrow yourselves into the river, dahlings!” ~Withnail and I (1987)

  7. #7

    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    My approach is to layer a new and a vintage fragrance, so that there's no new expenses or waste.

  8. #8

    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    where does oakmoss grow here?
    Yes you could do this, profumum.it have single-note scents that you could use as a base layer

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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Experimenting with Oakmoss Concrete dissolved in Ethenol and Isopropryl, I have found, with some of the new formulations ex favourites Eau Sauvage, Pour Monsieur etc Oakmoss addition, disturbs the balance. Newer batches of scents based with Woody Aromachemicals (Timbersilk), Calone etc are designed around these bases and enhancers.

    Vintage scents, that originally used Mosses, ex Mitsouko, Bugatti 1992 etc, I have found that additions, can cause in-balances disturbing, although personally, I enjoy good whacks of poisonous Oakmoss, Castoreum, Civet etc.

    Some success with small dustings of Oakmoss, Civet, Castoreum in 80's and 90's productions of scents like Pour Monsieur, Givenchy Gentleman, Bugatti 1992.
    Scarcity is an illusion. Unlearn it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Having done a lot of remixing with Aventus trying to give it that old thang back by using an immense array of aromachemicals including oakmoss at loads of different concentrations you really can't achieve what you're after because, as has been mentioned, its not like they just pulled out one component and left everything else "as is" because a reformulation is exactly that, a new take on an old formulation.

    You can however make some interesting yet subtle tweaks that create something different all together thats neither vintage nor modern. The hardest part I found was not "flattening" the scent with extra additions because that is very easy to do due to the tenacity of the components involved and, in the case of Aventus at least, how simple the structure is as it really can't handle much extra weight being placed on top of it.

    Either way it is a lot of fun but also potentially quite expensive because once you start playing you want more toys! Great learning experience though. Report back if you give it a spin please as I'd be interested in hearing what you made of it.

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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Quote Originally Posted by sproaty View Post
    where does oakmoss grow here?
    Yes you could do this, profumum.it have single-note scents that you could use as a base layer
    Singleton/Brynmill Park, by Bishop Gore School for one. I'm pretty sure I've seen some in the woods by Oystermouth Cemetary and Underhill Park. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some on trees down the Gower; I know there's a lot of woodland by Three Cliffs Bay.
    I'll happily go out on an expedition and see what I can find, however.

    I think I should do this soon.

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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post
    Hello Benz3ne--

    I've read about this approach but I don't do it myself.

    I prefer not to tinker. When a perfume works, I believe it is a result of the overall composition, its blending and its balance. I love the seamless blending of ingredients in vintage perfumes, and I find the exercise of "picking out notes" to be pointless when I am experiencing a truly great perfume: I just want to wallow it. In other words, I don't usually inhale my favorite vintage perfumes and think "Yaasss!!! Oakmoss!"

    When a classic is reformulated, the whole composition seems to be adjusted and altered. Whenever I have tested current versions of perfumes that I love in their vintage form, I've never thought that the addition of one or two ingredients could fix them. I suppose it can't hurt to try.

    Modern niche perfumes tend to have more delineated structures of notes, as if the perfumers intend for them to be read and deconstructed. It's a different and more minimal aesthetic. And we have entire perfume lines that are supposedly designed to be layered: Jo Malone. In these instances, I've never felt that the sum of the parts would add up to a more worthwhile whole. On the other hand, I have sometimes thought that the addition of some natural ingredient--jasmine or galbanum or oakmoss--might improve a niche perfume I am testing when the composition seems to be especially unadorned. I should try this and see.

    I'm curious to hear how your experiments turn out, if you decide to give this a whirl.
    Thanks for this! I'll be sure to update in due course. My next tact is to try and find a decent quantity of oakmoss in person and hit the DIY boards about making concretes and extracting from them. I've an abundance of solvents, polar/non-polar etc. so I should have the means of doing this.
    Similarly, I'm certain I can dilute adequately, having years of experience during my degree.
    I'll be sure to chime in soon enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    My approach is to layer a new and a vintage fragrance, so that there's no new expenses or waste.
    This is an approach I've seen a number of times. It seems to work for a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by purecaramel View Post
    Experimenting with Oakmoss Concrete dissolved in Ethenol and Isopropryl, I have found, with some of the new formulations ex favourites Eau Sauvage, Pour Monsieur etc Oakmoss addition, disturbs the balance. Newer batches of scents based with Woody Aromachemicals (Timbersilk), Calone etc are designed around these bases and enhancers.

    Vintage scents, that originally used Mosses, ex Mitsouko, Bugatti 1992 etc, I have found that additions, can cause in-balances disturbing, although personally, I enjoy good whacks of poisonous Oakmoss, Castoreum, Civet etc.

    Some success with small dustings of Oakmoss, Civet, Castoreum in 80's and 90's productions of scents like Pour Monsieur, Givenchy Gentleman, Bugatti 1992.
    Good to know - I'm guessing it's a minute proportion of isopropyl alcohol? I find it's characteristic odour pretty notable so would have though that might tip the balance itself.
    Do you recall what sort of dilutions/percentages you used? Would be interested to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Having done a lot of remixing with Aventus trying to give it that old thang back by using an immense array of aromachemicals including oakmoss at loads of different concentrations you really can't achieve what you're after because, as has been mentioned, its not like they just pulled out one component and left everything else "as is" because a reformulation is exactly that, a new take on an old formulation.

    You can however make some interesting yet subtle tweaks that create something different all together thats neither vintage nor modern. The hardest part I found was not "flattening" the scent with extra additions because that is very easy to do due to the tenacity of the components involved and, in the case of Aventus at least, how simple the structure is as it really can't handle much extra weight being placed on top of it.

    Either way it is a lot of fun but also potentially quite expensive because once you start playing you want more toys! Great learning experience though. Report back if you give it a spin please as I'd be interested in hearing what you made of it.
    Roger that. I'm sure I'll be bitten by the bug soon enough - I'm too curious for my own good and too exhaustive with these sorts of things for my bank balance's good. I do fancy grabbing a soxhlet extractor and/or distillation equipment for trying out my own extractions...

    It's interesting that you describe the structure as 'simple' given it can be flattened/bastardised easily. I'd have thought it might be a bit more involved if it takes a small imbalance to throw the scales.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 'Vintaging' a fragrance - Civet/oakmoss tinctures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Having done a lot of remixing with Aventus trying to give it that old thang back by using an immense array of aromachemicals including oakmoss at loads of different concentrations you really can't achieve what you're after because, as has been mentioned, its not like they just pulled out one component and left everything else "as is" because a reformulation is exactly that, a new take on an old formulation.

    You can however make some interesting yet subtle tweaks that create something different all together thats neither vintage nor modern. The hardest part I found was not "flattening" the scent with extra additions because that is very easy to do due to the tenacity of the components involved and, in the case of Aventus at least, how simple the structure is as it really can't handle much extra weight being placed on top of it.

    Either way it is a lot of fun but also potentially quite expensive because once you start playing you want more toys! Great learning experience though. Report back if you give it a spin please as I'd be interested in hearing what you made of it.
    Intriguing! I'll admit that I have occasionally mixed some vintage extraits with vintage PDTs and even EDTs (all the same scent, of course), and gotten interesting results, but that is quite different that adding in isolated notes.




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