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  1. #31
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    No good muguet beyond that I can think of. I enjoyed Dior Lucky (one of the new exclusives), but again, nothing close to Diorissimo. And I've always thought of Malle Eau de Magnolia as sister of Diorissimo-as I detect several common facets between magnolia and lily of the valley.

    (Btw, a couple of weeks ago I smelled muguets in my mothers garden.
    So glad you had a chance to smell the muguet this spring, Cacio. I always enjoy the muguet in vintage VCA First and Gucci Envy parfum, but these precede the limitations on LOTV ingredients. I am interested in investigating the connection you perceive between magnolia and LOTV notes. I would also like to test Oriza Legrand's Muguet Fleuri, VCA Muguet Blanc (2009), and Tauer's Carillon pour un ange. And finally I wish Guerlain would issue a one good muguet instead of overpriced, limited edition annual muguet perfumes.
    Currently wearing: Scandal by Lanvin

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Good morning all. And good morning grayspoole. “Caveat emptor”

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemelimelle View Post
    Good morning all. And good morning grayspoole. “Caveat emptor”
    I learn something relevant here all the time.

    Did I “reply with quote” myself??

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    To my nose there is a connection. Both have a floral citrusy aspect. Magnolia is more lemony, though. But in the case of Eau de Magnolia I think it was also the perfume itself. Recent muguets usually feel more like they belong to a floor cleaner. Diorissimo, among others, had a certain depth below the prim clean top (civet? who knows), and so does Eau de Magnolia.

    cacio

  5. #35

    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post
    So glad you had a chance to smell the muguet this spring, Cacio. I always enjoy the muguet in vintage VCA First and Gucci Envy parfum, but these precede the limitations on LOTV ingredients. I am interested in investigating the connection you perceive between magnolia and LOTV notes. I would also like to test Oriza Legrand's Muguet Fleuri, VCA Muguet Blanc (2009), and Tauer's Carillon pour un ange. And finally I wish Guerlain would issue a one good muguet instead of overpriced, limited edition annual muguet perfumes.
    I quite enjoy Oriza's Muguet Fleuri. It's a relatively realistic and by the numbers lily of the valley with sharp sappy green facet. Another similar one I can think of is Annick Goutal Le Muguet, which replicates the slightly warm but not yet animalic, and slightly "chalky" sweet floralcy of lily of the valley quite well, but not as green as Muguet Fleuri. DelRae Debut and Dame Lily of the Valley soliflore oil are also in the same vein in my opinion, with the former being more virginal and the later being more "chalky". I personally find Muguet Fleuri the most satisfying lily of the valley for its realism, and Diorissimo has too much jasmine facets for me to consider it as solely focusing on lily of the valley (kind of like Samsara is more like a ylang/jasmine-sandalwood than sandalwood to me), but if one prioritizes the complexity, Diorissimo is indeed unrivalled in my opinion.

    As for VCA Muguet Blanc, it's more like a sweet orange blossom + a bit green neroli to me. Neither do Tauer Carillon Pour Un Ange nor Hermès Muguet Porcelaine smell really like lily of the valley to me, but these two are very interesting in their own right. Carillon is curiously sharp, and almost shrill at times with its bitter green moss, which is juxtaposed with a green, aqueous (not aquatic) plant sap and watermelon peel-like, crystalline green sweetness, kind of like some aspects of lily of the valley got deformed by a certain optic illusion. Muguet Porcelaine also has a melon-like sweetness (not really aquatic), but with a synthetic civet-like skanky warmness making ripples around the edge, which is a quite unexpected development in Hermessence line.

    Oh speaking of melon, Penhligon's Lily of the Valley also reminds me of melon. Why do some lily of the valley perfumes have this nuance? Does anyone have similar association with some LOTV perfumes?

  6. #36
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Dear StellaDiverFlynn-

    Thanks for your notes on recent muguets! When I get through my self-imposed investigation of vintage Cotys, I'll start checking some of these out.

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    I quite enjoy Oriza's Muguet Fleuri. It's a relatively realistic and by the numbers lily of the valley with sharp sappy green facet.
    This does sound good! Oriza is an engaging brand, and I appreciate their efforts to produce modern fragrances with an old school vibe.

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    Another similar one I can think of is Annick Goutal Le Muguet, which replicates the slightly warm but not yet animalic, and slightly "chalky" sweet floralcy of lily of the valley quite well, but not as green as Muguet Fleuri. DelRae Debut and Dame Lily of the Valley soliflore oil are also in the same vein in my opinion, with the former being more virginal and the later being more "chalky".
    This idea of "chalkiness" interests me--is it a mineral-rich smell or a dry astringent texture for you? I usually don't mind "chalkiness" and I think of galbanum as a chalky greeness.

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    Diorissimo has too much jasmine facets for me to consider it as solely focusing on lily of the valley...but if one prioritizes the complexity, Diorissimo is indeed unrivalled in my opinion.
    I think you are right about the jasmine in Diorissimo. I'll have to smell my different versions (vintage parfum, vintage EDT, current 2014 extrait) to see if there is a difference in the jasmine component. It is probably the jasmine that leads some to describe vintage Diorissimo as "animalic" which I have never really understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    Tauer Carillon Pour Un Ange [does not] smell really like lily of the valley to me...is curiously sharp, and almost shrill at times with its bitter green moss, which is juxtaposed with a green, aqueous (not aquatic) plant sap and watermelon peel-like, crystalline green sweetness, kind of like some aspects of lily of the valley got deformed by a certain optic illusion.
    Bitter green moss is enticing, I have stayed my hand in ordering Carillon since some reviews suggest it dries down to WAC, but your description sounds appealing. Hope it's not too sweet. I do like how Tauer revisits and rethinks perfumery florals, such as Gardenia Sotto La Luna, although I haven't found his rose perfumes to be naturally rose-y enough for me, too spicy and woody.

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    Oh speaking of melon, Penhligon's Lily of the Valley also reminds me of melon. Why do some lily of the valley perfumes have this nuance? Does anyone have similar association with some LOTV perfumes?
    I usually find melon and cucumber notes cloying, so this is NG. I assume the idea is to update, soften, and sweeten the sharpness and greeness of LOTV in these compositions with the usual calone et. al...
    Currently wearing: Scandal by Lanvin

  7. #37
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Shall we discuss Coty Chypre (1917)?

    There have been a few topics devoted to it in the past...

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/451031-Chypre-de-Coty
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210533-Coty-Chypre
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/412...ydown-question

    I have been waiting and waiting to get a good bottle of the original version, after testing the 1980's reissue and finding it pretty uninspiring. I now have the original EDT, which arrived in excellent condition, with its internal stopper intact. Preliminary thoughts...it's great. Since the bottle arrived, I've been too busy to test it carefully, but one morning, I looked at my dresser and had this little epiphany...

    IMG_3117.jpg IMG_3119.jpg

    I hadn't noticed Faberge's close imitation of the Coty Chypre packaging until that moment. And, duh!, vintage Faberge Aphrodisia (1938) is another good old school chypre that should get more attention than it does. In our Rogue Perfumery topic, in our discussions of Manny's neo chypre Chypre Siam, I mentioned that Millot's Crepe de Chine (1925) is a close descendant of Coty's Chypre, and that comparison still holds. Guerlain's original Sous Le Vent (1933) probably was equally great as well, but I think the recent reissue feels more like a cologne than a classic chypre with full density and richness.

    What distinguishes all of these chypres for me is the fine balance among the green, hesperidic, bitter, and resinous components. The chypre accord holds together seamlessly.

    Mitsouko is such a different kind of chypre that I am almost unable to call it a "chypre" or read it as a clear development from Coty's Chypre. (And, lordy, I hate using the term "fruity chypre" to describe the somber complexity of Mitsouko.) If Guerlain WAS inspired by Coty's Chypre in creating Mitsouko, I would say that he completely displaced his source in an act of creative misinterpretation/misprision (cf. Bloom's Anxiety of Influence).
    Last edited by grayspoole; 25th May 2019 at 06:52 AM.
    Currently wearing: Scandal by Lanvin

  8. #38

    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post

    This does sound good! Oriza is an engaging brand, and I appreciate their efforts to produce modern fragrances with an old school vibe.

    This idea of "chalkiness" interests me--is it a mineral-rich smell or a dry astringent texture for you? I usually don't mind "chalkiness" and I think of galbanum as a chalky greeness.

    I think you are right about the jasmine in Diorissimo. I'll have to smell my different versions (vintage parfum, vintage EDT, current 2014 extrait) to see if there is a difference in the jasmine component. It is probably the jasmine that leads some to describe vintage Diorissimo as "animalic" which I have never really understood.

    Bitter green moss is enticing, I have stayed my hand in ordering Carillon since some reviews suggest it dries down to WAC, but your description sounds appealing. Hope it's not too sweet. I do like how Tauer revisits and rethinks perfumery florals, such as Gardenia Sotto La Luna, although I haven't found his rose perfumes to be naturally rose-y enough for me, too spicy and woody.

    I usually find melon and cucumber notes cloying, so this is NG. I assume the idea is to update, soften, and sweeten the sharpness and greeness of LOTV in these compositions with the usual calone et. al...
    Thank you grayspoole for taking time with the reply! Lily of the valley in perfumery is such an interesting topic! I'll try to be more concise this time so as not to stray the thread too much from discussing Coty perfumes. :P

    "Modern perfumes with an old school vibe", that's what I find fascinating about Oriza too! Qutie a few revived historic brands only capitalised on the image, and their perfumes don't really distinguish themselves from other modern niche perfumes. But with Oriza, even though one can still notice the modern materials, the composition succeeds or at least tries to convey an old school vibe, and they're pretty consistent between different releases too, which strengthens their unique identity.

    The "chalkiness" I refer to, is not really mineral nor astringently dry. It's more like a certain opaqueness, slightly powdery but not in the "cosmetic powder puff" kind of way, more like condensed powder such as the texture of compact powder or a piece of chalk, just short of being waxy or creamy, It's an association that I encounter most often in some non-oily white floral such as Jovan Island Gardenia or occasionally in Fracas and Diorissimo for example.

    I don't find Diorissimo particularly animalic, either (modern or vintage). If there's indeed civet or similar materials in it, I must have combined it with other floral elements to form the "indolic jasmine" association in my head.

    I agree that the perspectives in some of Tauer's perfumes are very interesting. I don't get much WAC in Carillon or other Tauer perfumes except for his latest Les Années 25, but he does have a certain affinity to Ambroxan or adjacent materials and uses them in quite a few of his works. I'm not particularly bothered by it, partly because I don't despise Ambroxan as much as WAC, partly because he usually incorporates it fairly organically. But I can definitely see how some people can be bothered by it, especially if they're sensitive to

    As for the melon, I'm not entirely confident it's Calone, which smells aquatic but also kind of "fishy" to my nose. Besides some lily of the valley perfumes, I also have melon associations with some jasmine/Hedione perfumes such as a few Dior perfumes by Roudnitska and Pierre Guillaume Drama Nuui, or some rose perfumes such as The Different Company Rose Poivrée and Aromatics Elxir. It's very possible that it's just an accidental asssociation that I have with ceratin floral materials, as the melon part in these perfumes are all slightly or greatly different from each other with their own facets and nuances.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post
    Shall we discuss Coty Chypre (1917)?

    There have been a few topics devoted to it in the past...

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/451031-Chypre-de-Coty
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210533-Coty-Chypre
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/412...ydown-question

    I have been waiting and waiting to get a good bottle of the original version, after testing the 1980's reissue and finding it pretty uninspiring. I now have the original EDT, which arrived in excellent condition, with its internal stopper intact. Preliminary thoughts...it's great. Since the bottle arrived, I've been too busy to test it carefully, but one morning, I looked at my dresser and had this little epiphany...

    Attachment 102986Attachment 102987

    I hadn't noticed Faberge's close imitation of the Coty Chypre packaging until that moment. And, duh!, vintage Faberge Aphrodisia (1938) is another good old school chypre that should get more attention than it does. In our Rogue Perfumery topic, in our discussions of Manny's neo chypre Chypre Siam, I mentioned that Millot's Crepe de Chine (1925) is a close descendant of Coty's Chypre, and that comparison still holds. Guerlain's original Sous Le Vent (1933) probably was equally great as well, but I think the recent reissue feels more like a cologne than a classic chypre with full density and richness.

    What distinguishes all of these chypres for me is the fine balance among the green, hesperidic, bitter, and resinous components. The chypre accord holds together seamlessly.

    Mitsouko is such a different kind of chypre that I am almost unable to call it a "chypre" or read it as a clear development from Coty's Chypre. (And, lordy, I hate using the term "fruity chypre" to describe the somber complexity of Mitsouko.) If Guerlain WAS inspired by Coty's Chypre in creating Mitsouko, I would say that he completely displaced his source in an act of creative misinterpretation/misprision (cf. Bloom's Anxiety of Influence).
    Thank you for this interesting read! Some of the information in the linked threads are enlightening. I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.

    As for Diorissimo, I wouldn't certainly say it's animalic. It's no Joy. But I meant animalic relative to current muguet iteration, where it feels that the thing belongs to a floor cleaner. Diorissimo is still prim, but it has a touch of something, perhaps jasmine and civet, that gives it warmth.

    cacio

  11. #41
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.
    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.
    Hello StellaDiverFlynn and Cacio-

    Thanks so much for joining in, I wish we could sit together with our bottles and sniff and discuss. Instead, we must try to explain our scent perceptions in...WORDS.

    I agree with you both that Crepe de Chine layers more intense, even luscious, florals over the chypre framework of bergamot, oakmoss, and labdanum. I think the effect is very beautiful, and if I were forced to choose, for some reason, I would take Crepe de Chine over Coty Chypre.

    Re: Mitsouko. Here, I am diverging from your opinions, since I am trying to argue (perhaps just to be controversial) that Mitsouko feels so different from Coty Chypre that I don't see much point (or receive much enlightenment) in making the comparison. The addition of Persicol/γ-Undecalactone/aldehyde C 14 to the chypre structure is the big game changer, but I would also say that Mitsouko's aromatic sweet spices, orris, vanilla, and vivid incense/woods (vetiver, patchouli, and ??) are just as important. To me, all of these amount to feels much more than a Guerlain "haze" or veil suffused over the austere chypre structure: I think these ingredients make Mitsouko into its own thing, and I wish we had a good name for it...but perhaps it's just Mitsouko.
    Currently wearing: Scandal by Lanvin

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Mitsouko.

  13. #43
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemelimelle View Post
    Mitsouko.
    Enough said, right? Are there any other classic chypres that you enjoy?
    Currently wearing: Scandal by Lanvin

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    I sampled Balenciaga Quadrille and have to report that I enjoyed it. Easy on the oakmoss, with sun-soaked fruits, Quadrille is a chipper kind of chypre, compared to the tantrums that make Mitsouko a major force. There is no dethroning the Queen. I didn’t find Quadrille’s fruits jammy like my Parure edt, for example. Quadrille is a lively, lighthearted Chypre. Compared to a sample of romantic Chant D’Aromes from the ‘60s, I’d say the fruits don’t share the same feelings.

    Two fruity Chypres on my testlist are Molyneux Fete and Nina Ricci Fille d’Eve. I’d love to sample these and compare.

    Edited to add a third sample: Deep vintage Diorama, NOT the bottle shown in directory. As shown, I won’t add it to my testlist because I wasn’t wowed. I want to be wowed. Rotting fruit a plus.
    Last edited by Shemelimelle; 30th May 2019 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Overripe Fruity Chypres!!!




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