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  1. #31

    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post

    This does sound good! Oriza is an engaging brand, and I appreciate their efforts to produce modern fragrances with an old school vibe.

    This idea of "chalkiness" interests me--is it a mineral-rich smell or a dry astringent texture for you? I usually don't mind "chalkiness" and I think of galbanum as a chalky greeness.

    I think you are right about the jasmine in Diorissimo. I'll have to smell my different versions (vintage parfum, vintage EDT, current 2014 extrait) to see if there is a difference in the jasmine component. It is probably the jasmine that leads some to describe vintage Diorissimo as "animalic" which I have never really understood.

    Bitter green moss is enticing, I have stayed my hand in ordering Carillon since some reviews suggest it dries down to WAC, but your description sounds appealing. Hope it's not too sweet. I do like how Tauer revisits and rethinks perfumery florals, such as Gardenia Sotto La Luna, although I haven't found his rose perfumes to be naturally rose-y enough for me, too spicy and woody.

    I usually find melon and cucumber notes cloying, so this is NG. I assume the idea is to update, soften, and sweeten the sharpness and greeness of LOTV in these compositions with the usual calone et. al...
    Thank you grayspoole for taking time with the reply! Lily of the valley in perfumery is such an interesting topic! I'll try to be more concise this time so as not to stray the thread too much from discussing Coty perfumes. :P

    "Modern perfumes with an old school vibe", that's what I find fascinating about Oriza too! Qutie a few revived historic brands only capitalised on the image, and their perfumes don't really distinguish themselves from other modern niche perfumes. But with Oriza, even though one can still notice the modern materials, the composition succeeds or at least tries to convey an old school vibe, and they're pretty consistent between different releases too, which strengthens their unique identity.

    The "chalkiness" I refer to, is not really mineral nor astringently dry. It's more like a certain opaqueness, slightly powdery but not in the "cosmetic powder puff" kind of way, more like condensed powder such as the texture of compact powder or a piece of chalk, just short of being waxy or creamy, It's an association that I encounter most often in some non-oily white floral such as Jovan Island Gardenia or occasionally in Fracas and Diorissimo for example.

    I don't find Diorissimo particularly animalic, either (modern or vintage). If there's indeed civet or similar materials in it, I must have combined it with other floral elements to form the "indolic jasmine" association in my head.

    I agree that the perspectives in some of Tauer's perfumes are very interesting. I don't get much WAC in Carillon or other Tauer perfumes except for his latest Les Années 25, but he does have a certain affinity to Ambroxan or adjacent materials and uses them in quite a few of his works. I'm not particularly bothered by it, partly because I don't despise Ambroxan as much as WAC, partly because he usually incorporates it fairly organically. But I can definitely see how some people can be bothered by it, especially if they're sensitive to

    As for the melon, I'm not entirely confident it's Calone, which smells aquatic but also kind of "fishy" to my nose. Besides some lily of the valley perfumes, I also have melon associations with some jasmine/Hedione perfumes such as a few Dior perfumes by Roudnitska and Pierre Guillaume Drama Nuui, or some rose perfumes such as The Different Company Rose Poivrée and Aromatics Elxir. It's very possible that it's just an accidental asssociation that I have with ceratin floral materials, as the melon part in these perfumes are all slightly or greatly different from each other with their own facets and nuances.
    Currently wearing: Askew by Humiecki & Graef

  2. #32

    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by grayspoole View Post
    Shall we discuss Coty Chypre (1917)?

    There have been a few topics devoted to it in the past...

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/451031-Chypre-de-Coty
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/210533-Coty-Chypre
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/412...ydown-question

    I have been waiting and waiting to get a good bottle of the original version, after testing the 1980's reissue and finding it pretty uninspiring. I now have the original EDT, which arrived in excellent condition, with its internal stopper intact. Preliminary thoughts...it's great. Since the bottle arrived, I've been too busy to test it carefully, but one morning, I looked at my dresser and had this little epiphany...

    Attachment 102986Attachment 102987

    I hadn't noticed Faberge's close imitation of the Coty Chypre packaging until that moment. And, duh!, vintage Faberge Aphrodisia (1938) is another good old school chypre that should get more attention than it does. In our Rogue Perfumery topic, in our discussions of Manny's neo chypre Chypre Siam, I mentioned that Millot's Crepe de Chine (1925) is a close descendant of Coty's Chypre, and that comparison still holds. Guerlain's original Sous Le Vent (1933) probably was equally great as well, but I think the recent reissue feels more like a cologne than a classic chypre with full density and richness.

    What distinguishes all of these chypres for me is the fine balance among the green, hesperidic, bitter, and resinous components. The chypre accord holds together seamlessly.

    Mitsouko is such a different kind of chypre that I am almost unable to call it a "chypre" or read it as a clear development from Coty's Chypre. (And, lordy, I hate using the term "fruity chypre" to describe the somber complexity of Mitsouko.) If Guerlain WAS inspired by Coty's Chypre in creating Mitsouko, I would say that he completely displaced his source in an act of creative misinterpretation/misprision (cf. Bloom's Anxiety of Influence).
    Thank you for this interesting read! Some of the information in the linked threads are enlightening. I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.
    Currently wearing: Askew by Humiecki & Graef

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.

    As for Diorissimo, I wouldn't certainly say it's animalic. It's no Joy. But I meant animalic relative to current muguet iteration, where it feels that the thing belongs to a floor cleaner. Diorissimo is still prim, but it has a touch of something, perhaps jasmine and civet, that gives it warmth.

    cacio

  4. #34
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by StellaDiverFlynn View Post
    I very much agree that Crêpe de Chine is also a close descendant. Interestingly, the addition of honeyed animalic floral elements in Crêpe de Chine evokes a very different mood from Coty Chypre to me, much more sensuous while Coty is more nature-orienting. Mitsouko in contrary, makes its comparison to Coty Chypre instantly jump out in my head, despite its significant characteristics of dried peach and subtle spices.
    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    I agree that Crepe de Chine is closely related to Chypre. But to my nose not more than Mitsouko. Crepe de Chine to my nose is quite different in the top, where crepe de chine is aldehydic and floral. It's in the base that the chypre structure becomes noticeable. Mitsouko has the underlying structure, but covered in the guerlain haze. Plus, the peach-skin material can be very strong to some-there are versions of modern Mitsouko where I think there's too much of it.
    Hello StellaDiverFlynn and Cacio-

    Thanks so much for joining in, I wish we could sit together with our bottles and sniff and discuss. Instead, we must try to explain our scent perceptions in...WORDS.

    I agree with you both that Crepe de Chine layers more intense, even luscious, florals over the chypre framework of bergamot, oakmoss, and labdanum. I think the effect is very beautiful, and if I were forced to choose, for some reason, I would take Crepe de Chine over Coty Chypre.

    Re: Mitsouko. Here, I am diverging from your opinions, since I am trying to argue (perhaps just to be controversial) that Mitsouko feels so different from Coty Chypre that I don't see much point (or receive much enlightenment) in making the comparison. The addition of Persicol/γ-Undecalactone/aldehyde C 14 to the chypre structure is the big game changer, but I would also say that Mitsouko's aromatic sweet spices, orris, vanilla, and vivid incense/woods (vetiver, patchouli, and ??) are just as important. To me, all of these amount to feels much more than a Guerlain "haze" or veil suffused over the austere chypre structure: I think these ingredients make Mitsouko into its own thing, and I wish we had a good name for it...but perhaps it's just Mitsouko.

  5. #35
    Basenotes Junkie grayspoole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Coty Perfumes, Reconsidered

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemelimelle View Post
    Mitsouko.
    Enough said, right? Are there any other classic chypres that you enjoy?




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