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    Default Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Is their an easier way of working out ratios between oils when using the Jean Carles Method? For example, once you go beyond 2 materials you have hundreds of experiments to complete, which isn't conducive to the home perfumer who is just starting out. It would be incredibly costly to do this and I would use enormous amounts of material. Can anyone help?

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Musk Root View Post
    Is their an easier way of working out ratios between oils when using the Jean Carles Method? For example, once you go beyond 2 materials you have hundreds of experiments to complete, which isn't conducive to the home perfumer who is just starting out. It would be incredibly costly to do this and I would use enormous amounts of material. Can anyone help?
    you should acquaint yourself with the materials as deep as possible. use scent strips and make notes about aroma, longevity and strength. compare your EOs/ACs/etc and make notes about strength comparisons too. this will be of enormous help for working on accords as you wont start 'blind' when trying to work on the ratios.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by pavomi View Post
    you should acquaint yourself with the materials as deep as possible. use scent strips and make notes about aroma, longevity and strength. compare your EOs/ACs/etc and make notes about strength comparisons too. this will be of enormous help for working on accords as you wont start 'blind' when trying to work on the ratios.
    Thanks, I can't believe I didn't think of that

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    When we are discussing that method I'd like to ask also the question regarding way of mixing. I've bought
    some book where they adviced to use cotton pads to create perfumes instead of mixing and use blotters. Have anyone of you used that ? Actually I was going it until now and few days ago I decided to mix it in a Small jar. The results were much more sutisfying but I faced another problem. How to clean them quickly ?
    I would be glad to hear from you what methods you prefer to mix your fragrances

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Maybe you already thought about it, but just in case... you talk about wasting too much material, do you already dilute them all in alcohol?

    For quick testing, instead of DPG, I use alcohol and pipettes.

    Cheers


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    I am using the Carles method sometimes, without ever wasting material and ending up with an sketch perfume, but this is a bit complicated an would need an own thread.

    Usually I follow the advice of Jean-Claude Ellena, who uses the scale of: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 etc. So take an amount of material A, say 10 drops, and add of B: 1, 2 (+1), 3, 5, 7 ... I also sometimes create the top note ... base note separately, of 3 to 7 materials.

    But as of my amateurish experience (I make only small natural perfumes of 12 - 40 materials until now), this makes only sense after you have made up your own rules for the following subjects:

    – Intime knowledge of your raw materials

    - Obtained by exercises the ability to say of which strength/intensity a substance is (my scale has 10 steps)

    - Having an own, idiosyncratic method of catalogising odours/materials in groups (my has 13 classes)

    - Having an own way of assigning volatility levels, like head note ... base note, to materials (I use 5 classes A , B, C, D, E). F.e. my books says, Bay (Pimenta Racemosa) is a head note. But my "Bay St. Thomas" lasts hours on skin an two days on fabric. - Besides them, it has an interessting fixative effect on the citrus class.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    If you are somewhat conscientious there is no worse blending routine than JC method.

    "Is there an easier way of working out ratios between oils when using the Jean Carles Method?"

    Apart from mindless and random JC method seems to be the easiest. At least to me. Also rather wasteful and frustrating.

    JC method can be streamlined using knowledge; Carles suggests fragrance types and classifies materials which helps a lot; another idea comes from the theory of the odour perception:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Usually I follow the advice of Jean-Claude Ellena, who uses the scale of: 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50 etc. So take an amount of material A, say 10 drops, and add of B: 1, 2 (+1), 3, 5, 7 ... I also sometimes create the top note ... base note separately, of 3 to 7 materials.
    One can also use skills. If you're good with the scale and/or arithmetics and/or spreadsheets and/or etc. you can test multiple ratios by adding ingredients to existing mixtures.

    Formally, creating good accords can be seen as a search in the space of all possible ingredient ratios. The search can be made more efficient if we have some clue where to look for stuff. That's why people will never cease to suggest learning the ingredients. What I find much more exciting is exploring different search methods. For instance a modular approach: blend ingredients into simple accords which, in turn, can be blended to more elaborate accords and so forth. Or minimax method: when trying to improve an accord modify it into several new ones by adding just one ingredient. Evaluating these might help find ratios between these new ingredients in the final blend.

    My MO, the one that defines the workflow and organises my new insights, is inspired by Object Oriented Programming: Start with a very rough idea, mostly 2-3 ingredients. It can be a sketch for example: lilac ~ hydroxycitronellal + anisaldehyde, but mostly it'll be rather abstract. I don't even bother to blend the sketch. From this I try to derive new ideas; continuing lilac example, it can be greener, rosier, sweeter, soapier so the new ideas could be labelled by these attributes and their combinations. I might for instance blend a green and sweet version which I then modified towards rosy. It might occur I don't like rosy after all so I go one step back and perhaps try soapy and if it works I might start playing with indole. And so on and so forth.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    I work macro to micro....
    I have a clear goal, example "fresh fruity, patchouli women perfume," i.e. COCO Chanel

    I divide a perfume into mini perfumes

    This perfume needs 5 mini-perfumes
    1). top - "sweet citrus and herb accord" with tangerine and lavender (of course many other materials too)
    2). "fresh accord" - "fresh accord" with calone, melon, etc
    3). middle florals accord - jasmines and roses etc
    4). milky lactones accord - jasmolactone, heliotropin, coumarin, vanillin etc
    5). sweet patchouli and spice accord - patchouli, cocoa absolute, cinnamon materials etc..
    6). white musk aspect - hedione and others...

    Then...
    I research each part of the perfume...
    See if I can find formulas online, or in my collection that match up with my intention
    for that particular accord...


    I may find a "fresh oceanic accord," somewhere online...or somewhere in my books
    From there I play with the accord, using my own nose... I bottle it up, let it sit
    then move on to the next one.

    And so forth and so on.
    you never get EXACTLY what you want, it might turn out better or worse, or just different
    But its always FUN
    there`s no wrong way, just document your steps

    You bottle up accords, record your process
    And I would ASSUME that after years and years of doing this, you can simply draw from memory
    M
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Musk Root View Post
    Thanks, I can't believe I didn't think of that
    that the best advice, for sure
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    I also found JC approach a bit to agressive on my material stock. So i do a version of it... I will use one beaker with say 0.10 or 0.20mg of the primary material, (All diluted) then i start to add 1 drop at a time (into the same beaker) of a new material, noting the difference. This way i will find ca at what ratio the two materials are in balance.

    I also have made a few what i would call barebone fragrances ... ex i've made a very simple chypre witch i have bottled (3-4ml) and when ever i want to experiment in the chypre/citrus area i start with 0.20mg or so with the barebone, and start adding 1 drop at the time noting the impact it has.

    Still some waste though.

    Other than that, i support what Mattmeleg writes, i find it important to have some sort of a plan in the experimenting.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Obviously, the clue is to have an idea of what should be the result. But this is based on experience. It seems to me that JC method works best "as a search in the space of all possible ingredient ratios" for only 2 materials.

    Sorry, I don’t really get the point in considering the workflow in analogy to "Object Oriented Programming". Looking at raw materials as classes with properties from which an instance of f.e. chypres is created, does not add anything new to it. And starting with a simple software product and then developing it to more complexity is an old Unix praxis since the times of W. Richard Stevens, and an old praxis on about everything. I also do not believe much in using different "search algorithms".

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I work macro to micro....
    I have a clear goal, example "fresh fruity, patchouli women perfume," i.e. COCO Chanel
    I divide a perfume into mini perfumes
    Thanks for the insight. This is a fine advise. I mean, it implies the following preconditions:

    I. Know your raw materials.

    II. Know duos of 2 materials and create elementary perfumes (Inventions, would J.S. Bach call it). Even wear it. For me the first one was: "oak moss" + "patchouli". More by accident mixed, I recognised therein this wonderful background of many high end male perfumes and I explored it by the JC method.

    III. And then accords of 3 materials, where things begin to be complex.

    In analogy to chess players (which I am not) who are asked, how many moves they can see ahead of them, I ask myself:

    3.1 How many triads one can remember and
    3.2 how many "moves" ahead in creating a perfume a well-versed perfumer can imagine?

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Obviously, the clue is to have an idea of what should be the result. But this is based on experience. It seems to me that JC method works best "as a search in the space of all possible ingredient ratios" for only 2 materials.

    Sorry, I don’t really get the point in considering the workflow in analogy to "Object Oriented Programming". Looking at raw materials as classes with properties from which an instance of f.e. chypres is created, does not add anything new to it. And starting with a simple software product and then developing it to more complexity is an old Unix praxis since the times of W. Richard Stevens, and an old praxis on about everything. I also do not believe much in using different "search algorithms".



    Thanks for the insight. This is a fine advise. I mean, it implies the following preconditions:

    I. Know your raw materials.

    II. Know duos of 2 materials and create elementary perfumes (Inventions, would J.S. Bach call it). Even wear it. For me the first one was: "oak moss" + "patchouli". More by accident mixed, I recognised therein this wonderful background of many high end male perfumes and I explored it by the JC method.

    III. And then accords of 3 materials, where things begin to be complex.

    In analogy to chess players (which I am not) who are asked, how many moves they can see ahead of them, I ask myself:

    3.1 How many triads one can remember and
    3.2 how many "moves" ahead in creating a perfume a well-versed perfumer can imagine?
    Well said. Excellent advice.
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Sorry, I don’t really get the point in considering the workflow in analogy to "Object Oriented Programming". Looking at raw materials as classes with properties from which an instance of f.e. chypres is created, does not add anything new to it.
    This way would be daft, wouldn't it?

    I suppose all perfumers develop routines. I thought it wouldn't harm to mention mine.
    In a nutshell, once I blend something meaningful I give it a name bottle it and treat it as a new ingredient.

    I used to have high hopes of balancing. A technique I still use but no longer deem potent.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    In a nutshell, once I blend something meaningful I give it a name bottle it and treat it as a new ingredient.
    Sorry, this of course makes lot of sense, I did not saw this analogy to OOP. Well, Object Oriented Bottling.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    This way would be daft, wouldn't it?

    I suppose all perfumers develop routines. I thought it wouldn't harm to mention mine.
    In a nutshell, once I blend something meaningful I give it a name bottle it and treat it as a new ingredient.

    I used to have high hopes of balancing. A technique I still use but no longer deem potent.
    Balancing?

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    Post Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    Balancing?
    Perhaps the widespread idea that the use of very precise quantities of the order of a thousandth would have great influence on the accord or the perfume. I remember that Jean-Claude Ellena also wrote that he does not believe in it, but in the quality and type of materials used.

    Firstly, I missed the point of OOP because I was thinking about materials and accords, i. e. at a lower level. However, with greater complexity, it may be useful to consider perfumes as objects that need to be modified in different ways by adding - well, probably not other objects but - properties. This has always been the case, but from the point of view of the OOP it is becoming more conscious and systematic.

    Of course I think that this implies more bottles, more refrigerators ... more assistants. However, it also seems to me that this cult of very precise dosage overestimates its influence. Maybe I am wrong too.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    There is this idea that by mixing several ingredients in correct proportions the individual ingredients become hard to discern and the blend itself attains novel quality. One example of it is the dreaded mud in all possible forms. More meaningful are bases and accords. In general, the fewer ingredients in a balanced blend the more interesting it appears. For instance certain quality cinnamon oil together with orange and perhaps some lime oil can be made into a coca-cola accord.

    However, by learning materials we become more analytic and detect individual ingredients in such mixtures. My daughters (6 and 10) no longer call it cola but rather orange and cinnamon. Thanks to Andy Tauer's insights we know that even expert perfumers have troubles to identify individual ingredients in blends of just five familiar materials. Thus his pentachords. The idea is very appealing but mostly hopelessly hard to render. Most of the time five ingredients mixed every which way just don't cut it. It seems one needs to introduce other materials and once the desired effect is achieved the unnecessary ones can be removed from the formula.

    The sort of balancing I perform frequently is adding very powerful components in amounts so small that they cannot be readily identified yet seem to have an impact on blends. In which case they appear in the formulas at concentrations as low or lower than 0,001%.

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Perhaps the widespread idea that the use of very precise quantities of the order of a thousandth would have great influence on the accord or the perfume. I remember that Jean-Claude Ellena also wrote that he does not believe in it, but in the quality and type of materials used.
    I would like to support that. In my mind, I keep to an idea I don't remember where I*copied it from (probably Luca Turin): composing is like charting a map. There is the big blue ocean of the trivial and the stinky. And then there are nicely and interestingly smelling islands. Some are small, some are big. Some have several sweet spots others just one. So sometimes it is easy to land on an large olfactory island (like "Angel" or "Trésor"), i.e. the very precise quantities don't matter that much.

    Then again finding the correct sweet spot on a particular island can be tedious: In some formulae a small difference in one or two ingredients can make a huge effect, but not all ingredients are concerned and not all formulae.

    So is there another way than the JC-way? — Try blotter-distance-variation: Take two or three blotter strips, each with it's own material and vary their distance from your nose. Further away would be less concentrated, closer accordingly more concentrated. Maybe this allows you to catch a synergy accord (more than the sum of the parts) and you have a start with roughly translating the distances into proportions.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Quote Originally Posted by filousoph View Post
    I would like to support that. In my mind, I keep to an idea I don't remember where I*copied it from (probably Luca Turin): composing is like charting a map. There is the big blue ocean of the trivial and the stinky. And then there are nicely and interestingly smelling islands. Some are small, some are big. Some have several sweet spots others just one. So sometimes it is easy to land on an large olfactory island (like "Angel" or "Trésor"), i.e. the very precise quantities don't matter that much.

    Then again finding the correct sweet spot on a particular island can be tedious: In some formulae a small difference in one or two ingredients can make a huge effect, but not all ingredients are concerned and not all formulae.

    So is there another way than the JC-way? — Try blotter-distance-variation: Take two or three blotter strips, each with it's own material and vary their distance from your nose. Further away would be less concentrated, closer accordingly more concentrated. Maybe this allows you to catch a synergy accord (more than the sum of the parts) and you have a start with roughly translating the distances into proportions.
    This seems like an extremely good idea

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    Default Re: Is their a better way to accord formulating than the Jean Carles Method beyond using 2 materials

    Write down your goals and intentions
    make a material list
    do research
    draw pictures

    *and THEN start mixing materials
    Know your "why," and the how is there.




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