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  1. #1

    Question Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    I'm now work on so-called Skin perfume(Skin scent) type, like Another 13 by le labo...
    But I think I'm quite anosmia with musk and amber. I can detect them when their single form, but When I mixed them, it is too flat.

    Here's my formula

    1 Cetalox 5
    2 Ambretolide 5
    3 Helveltolide 15
    4 Habanolide 15
    5 Glaxolide Pure 100
    6 Iso E super 100
    7 Hedione 50
    8 AHCA 50
    9 Benzyl salicylate 30
    10 Vanillin 5
    11 Aldehyde C12 Lauric 10% 5

    total 380.

    I believed that AHCA help the diffusion but It only worked as its own characteristics... Which I really hate oily-cinnamon. specially on my skin.
    It is barely detected with smelling paper... at least to me.
    So I add linalool 10, but It is too direct "scent".
    If you have any nice suggestion for "skin scent", I dare to ask share them Please. Muscenone or Muscone?
    I also had thinking about add animalic directly, but My conception is... "with your (dirty) body odour" so, I gave up on adding animalic ingredient(such as civet, indole, skatole etc). That is why I add less direct animalic nuance of AHCA, but conclusion... failed.

  2. #2
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    I definitely smell like iso e super after sun tanning....
    Ambretolide and Iso E super 100 are about the only ones i agree with

    Hedinone, vannila and Benzyl salicylate to sweet IMHO.

    C12, Really?
    No person I know smells like C12....
    Galaxolide smells like laundry to me, i would not include it
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I definitely smell like iso e super after sun tanning....
    Ambretolide and Iso E super 100 are about the only ones i agree with

    Hedinone, vannila and Benzyl salicylate to sweet IMHO.

    C12, Really?
    No person I know smells like C12....
    Galaxolide smells like laundry to me, i would not include it
    I really thank you for sharing your perspective.
    Did you see the movie "perfume?" He used fat to collect the scents of women. It inspired me, Carbon Aldehydes have 'fatty' smell.
    especially C12 lauric smells like soapy and candle melting... In practical way, it give diffusion the mixture, al least I believe it so.
    Vanillin is for mother's smell, I heard It existed in mother's milk.
    I use so-called Ambretollide(from symrise, actually iso-ambretollide) I think It smells like gorgeous blonde animal, like Golden Retriever...
    And I also got inspiration from "hug-me accord", which consists of Galaxolide... Yeah, Galaxolide is too pretty but everyone like it... I should consider the market.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    I think your diffusivity and flatness issue, is a near complete lack of top, or hardly even middle notes.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I think your diffusivity and flatness issue, is a near complete lack of top, or hardly even middle notes.
    Thank you very much for your advice. I heard Helvetolide is actually acetate, so It worked as top to bottom.
    So I expected that will helpful... maybe I should put it more?
    and also I expected hedione and AHCA would be helpful with diffusion and more shed the light on the presences musks and ambers.

    and Other so-called skin perfumes(like Another 13) is quite perceptive and...
    I heard that Expensive perfumes like Creed, they add a lots of Cetalox, or Ambroxan In their perfumes...
    Some are just anosmia with Cetalox, but the brand adds a lot and It worked... I want to know their secret...

  6. #6
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    I wouldn't depend so much on hear say,
    Smell skin....
    Then smell these materials on their own, and ask yourself "does skin actually smell like vanilla,"?

    Paul's right,
    No middle or top notes...
    Yes, hedione is a middle note - but many people can't even smell hedione.

    Smell each material on it's own and be honest with yourself. Does mother's milk smell like a vanilla milk shake? Really? I wish!

    The human body shared MANY of the same molecules found in these materials,
    But the question is

    TOO WHAT EXTENT?!

    There's even gold in the Human body...
    But if I were a realist painter and wanted to make a photo realistic portrait of human skin....

    I would NOT choose to paint with Gold paint.

    Get what I'm saying...

    Smell each material,
    Then smell your own skin

    Then decide for yourself which materials to keep or to not use.

    In other words trust your own judgement.

    Taking three materials that do not smell like skin, and combining them...will not end up with a skin scent.
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  7. #7
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by MezNez View Post
    Thank you very much for your advice. I heard Helvetolide is actually acetate, so It worked as top to bottom.
    So I expected that will helpful... maybe I should put it more?
    and also I expected hedione and AHCA would be helpful with diffusion and more shed the light on the presences musks and ambers.

    and Other so-called skin perfumes(like Another 13) is quite perceptive and...
    I heard that Expensive perfumes like Creed, they add a lots of Cetalox, or Ambroxan In their perfumes...
    Some are just anosmia with Cetalox, but the brand adds a lot and It worked... I want to know their secret...
    There is no secret
    Creed, like everyone else has their own way of making dry down, basenote. I'm not a huge fan of all Creed dry downs...I think Channels are much better
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Yeah, it is just a concept. and I focused on vanillin, not vanilla shake. It's soft and woody nuance.
    there is secret I think. or I should said it is formula. the magic of mix. the fragrance ingredients are interacting each other, so it make harmony and accord that never expected. maybe They find out that thing.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    I don't think you can get the smell of skin without fatty acids. You are in the right direction with the lauric acid, but really need the acids like in the narcotic flower group although I don't know how you get rid of the flower smell. Maybe that's the reason for using animalics, to cover up florals where you are after the fatty part only?
    The flowers that have to be cold-extracted should contain that. You might try plumeria I have yellow plumeria that smells like 'younger me' skin, even though the other colors don't have that aspect. If you want to try with cheap materials at first there is ghee(clarified butter) or some other things I'm sure just do a quick experiment on tiny portion to see whether that is what you are missing.
    Only problem with this is fatty acids are not considered acceptable in material... if absolute has too much fatty acid it is supposed to be removed

  10. #10

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thea in Fl View Post
    I don't think you can get the smell of skin without fatty acids. You are in the right direction with the lauric acid, but really need the acids like in the narcotic flower group although I don't know how you get rid of the flower smell. Maybe that's the reason for using animalics, to cover up florals where you are after the fatty part only?
    The flowers that have to be cold-extracted should contain that. You might try plumeria I have yellow plumeria that smells like 'younger me' skin, even though the other colors don't have that aspect. If you want to try with cheap materials at first there is ghee(clarified butter) or some other things I'm sure just do a quick experiment on tiny portion to see whether that is what you are missing.
    Only problem with this is fatty acids are not considered acceptable in material... if absolute has too much fatty acid it is supposed to be removed
    Yes, That is why I considered fatty aldehydes. I really like Aldehydic florals, such as no.5 or no.22. yes, some floral parts are needed, like Jasmine in no.5 or else...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I definitely smell like iso e super after sun tanning....
    there *might* be something wrong with your iso e.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    You try touch of evernyl!
    Heliotropin is also good idea!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    You try touch of evernyl!
    Heliotropin is also good idea!
    Are you going for a powdery musk. Sweaty skin? Clean skin?
    To make your musks work you need to add other notes to it. With musks also, the maceration time should be a bit longer.

    For clean skin try adding citrus on top, supported by aldehydes like c10, c11 then in the heart try orange flower accord. An accord of Heliotropin, vetiver, evernyl, ethy vanilin and sandalwood could work well, think Allure by Chanel.
    For sensual warmth, some sandalwood ac. Cinnamon could work well too. Cedramber/iso e super combo for warmth and diffusion. Plus you'd need some texture in the base, woods, patchouli. For sweaty element, some cumin oil in traces. Iris for powdery element. Nagarmotha (cypriol) for some funk maybe.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    out of the blue, try adding just a little Norlimbanol like

    Norlimbanol 100% 1

    or even

    Norlimbanol 10% 1

    I once followed a Norlimbanol demonstration formula and the effect it had could fit your needs.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Adding to the list: pink pepper, Angelica (traces), rose, orris/carrot seed, Mayol.

    (Definitely aldehydes are worth trying.)

  16. #16
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    There are no "secrets," just hard work.
    Spending hours at one's desk....

    If there is a "secret,"....it's experience.
    And it takes years to learn the "logic," within perfume formulas. 1 + 1= 2, but perfume is different from math.

    This is might sound odd, But IMHO
    Making perfume isn't just about the formulas....
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    You try touch of evernyl!
    Heliotropin is also good idea!
    Thank you. I put anisaldehyde, not heliotropine. It is all up to formula but heliotropine is too sweet in my tries.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfectscent View Post
    Are you going for a powdery musk. Sweaty skin? Clean skin?
    To make your musks work you need to add other notes to it. With musks also, the maceration time should be a bit longer.

    For clean skin try adding citrus on top, supported by aldehydes like c10, c11 then in the heart try orange flower accord. An accord of Heliotropin, vetiver, evernyl, ethy vanilin and sandalwood could work well, think Allure by Chanel.
    For sensual warmth, some sandalwood ac. Cinnamon could work well too. Cedramber/iso e super combo for warmth and diffusion. Plus you'd need some texture in the base, woods, patchouli. For sweaty element, some cumin oil in traces. Iris for powdery element. Nagarmotha (cypriol) for some funk maybe.
    Thank you for your great suggestion. I also considered the "orange blossom scent", "powdery scent" like many musk fragrances did.
    but I want to more abstract scent. so now I'm focus on Cashmeran. Cashmeran quite fit What I imagine. spicy(like cumin), woody and smoky(like cedar), and musky...
    Cetalox with Cashmeran and helvetolide and other musks... also with light florals.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by filousoph View Post
    out of the blue, try adding just a little Norlimbanol like

    Norlimbanol 100% 1

    or even

    Norlimbanol 10% 1

    I once followed a Norlimbanol demonstration formula and the effect it had could fit your needs.
    That sounds nice. but I don't have Norlimbanol now. Thank you for sharing your idea. I will try that If I got Norlimbanol.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    There are no "secrets," just hard work.
    Spending hours at one's desk....

    If there is a "secret,"....it's experience.
    And it takes years to learn the "logic," within perfume formulas. 1 + 1= 2, but perfume is different from math.

    This is might sound odd, But IMHO
    Making perfume isn't just about the formulas....
    Yes, you're right. because I'm not Grenouille...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    Adding to the list: pink pepper, Angelica (traces), rose, orris/carrot seed, Mayol.

    (Definitely aldehydes are worth trying.)
    Thank you. I tried Mayol once, It is nice but not the feeling that I want to. rest are too expensive for my wallet

  22. #22
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Sorry guys, I must disagree....
    Skin does not smell like citrus, flowers or vanilla or vanillin or C12

    Skin is
    - slightly musky
    - animalic (when unwashed) - cumin e.o. civet (all in traces)
    - warm (perhaps some woody musks)
    - it can be leathery (someone mentioned Nagaramotha)
    - perhaps animalic oud (just small traces)


    Skin is also associated with laundry smells, sex, and clothing...
    yes - maybe cashmeran for wool texture/clothing...
    yes - maybe the "white musks," like Hedione and Galaxolide for the laundry smell

    Flowers?
    I WISH people smelled like flowers, lemons or vanilla - but they do not
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    mattmeleg, I don't think there is a need for a debate here. I'd certainly add blue to my palette when trying to render human skin but try to persuade 6 years old that skin isn't really pink.

    Similarly, we may detect musk and vanilla in lavender soliflores. Not because lavender smells of vanilla but rather because vanilla gives a cosy background for lavender to shine bright.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Yes, as I mentioned before, It is just a marketing concept, like Not a perfume by JHAG, Another 13 by Le Labo. I don't think they are reacting like pheromone or really "skin-scent".
    Anyway, Thank you very much for sharing your Idea, mattmeleg.

  25. #25
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    mattmeleg, I don't think there is a need for a debate here. I'd certainly add blue to my palette when trying to render human skin but try to persuade 6 years old that skin isn't really pink.

    Similarly, we may detect musk and vanilla in lavender soliflores. Not because lavender smells of vanilla but rather because vanilla gives a cosy background for lavender to shine bright.

    You are right. I apologize, there is no need for debate. And I certainly am not claiming to be a "good performer."
    Definitely not. Rather, allow me to explain my philosophy.

    My philosophy is to make my accords as simple as possible.
    I take materials that, in themselves, smell near to my final goal.

    If I take rose smelling material 1, 2 and 3... with these, I can make a reasonable rose smelling accord.
    I adhere to the "kiss," philosophy of (keep it simple, stupid).
    1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

    I have read, I have heard of very advanced perfumers using abstract formulas....
    Where each of the individual materials smells NOTHING like the final accord.

    These advanced perfumers have the experience and technical know how to pull it off.

    As someone mentioned earlier, it seems like alchemy, as if there is some "secret," to it all.
    Unless you consider in-house, passed down training methods and access to in-house formulas.... no alchemy exists.

    Anyways,
    thats my philosophy.
    Take materials that you know smell similar to the final accord, use them, keep it simple.
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  26. #26
    Dependent mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by MezNez View Post
    Yes, as I mentioned before, It is just a marketing concept, like Not a perfume by JHAG, Another 13 by Le Labo. I don't think they are reacting like pheromone or really "skin-scent".
    Anyway, Thank you very much for sharing your Idea, mattmeleg.

    Ah, if it is marketing...then I agree with you 1000% - explore abstract ideas!!
    I hope you reach a formula that is satisfying to you.
    Know your "why," and the how is there.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Ah, if it is marketing...then I agree with you 1000% - explore abstract ideas!!
    I hope you reach a formula that is satisfying to you.


    IMHO it is impossible to create an accord based on white musks only. They are fixatives, some are diffusive some are enhancing other materials, some don't smell at all to some people. If the formula is overloaded with white musks the perfume tends to wear like lead.

    The art of perfumery is to combine notes and accentuate them, to understand them.

    That's why citrusses are added when creating floral accords, to lift the scent, hedione is added for transparency and diffusion but not to freshen a scent.

    Amber accord (not ambergris) contains bergamot for a reason, besides labdanum and e. vanillin, to freshen and lift the scent.
    Musks without middle and top notes are dull and smell often of nothing but waer like lead like said before.

    Cashmeran when mixed with other notes tends to lose its orginal spiciness and turns the accord powdery. In order to extend Cashmeran you need to build around its facets like - frash apple, ambery, woody, spicy, wet concrete. Patchuli light, amber extreme, ambroxan, musks, piconia, ethyl acetate, vertenex, cedramber, iso e super, fir balsam, verdox are some ideas that might come in play when building around facets of cashmeran per se.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfectscent View Post
    IMHO it is impossible to create an accord based on white musks only. They are fixatives, some are diffusive some are enhancing other materials, some don't smell at all to some people. If the formula is overloaded with white musks the perfume tends to wear like lead.

    The art of perfumery is to combine notes and accentuate them, to understand them.

    That's why citrusses are added when creating floral accords, to lift the scent, hedione is added for transparency and diffusion but not to freshen a scent.

    Amber accord (not ambergris) contains bergamot for a reason, besides labdanum and e. vanillin, to freshen and lift the scent.
    Musks without middle and top notes are dull and smell often of nothing but waer like lead like said before.

    Cashmeran when mixed with other notes tends to lose its orginal spiciness and turns the accord powdery. In order to extend Cashmeran you need to build around its facets like - frash apple, ambery, woody, spicy, wet concrete. Patchuli light, amber extreme, ambroxan, musks, piconia, ethyl acetate, vertenex, cedramber, iso e super, fir balsam, verdox are some ideas that might come in play when building around facets of cashmeran per se.
    I want to find accord between musks... and ambers. may I'm too naive
    Yes, For such diffusive reaction, I added Hedione, but too much hedione makes flatness I think... At least Not worked with my things.
    I still don't know about Hedione... Usually they used as excessive amount, like 2-30% or more... But It didn't worked to my formulas at all.
    Why other perfumers use it so, what is the purpose? just rounding scent? soften scent? mix them well? but I always get "flatness" from it.
    I also considered Phenoxanol, and tried, tried... many times. anyway, Thank you very much for sharing your great idea.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by MezNez View Post
    I want to find accord between musks... and ambers. may I'm too naive
    Yes, For such diffusive reaction, I added Hedione, but too much hedione makes flatness I think... At least Not worked with my things.
    I still don't know about Hedione... Usually they used as excessive amount, like 2-30% or more... But It didn't worked to my formulas at all.
    Why other perfumers use it so, what is the purpose? just rounding scent? soften scent? mix them well? but I always get "flatness" from it.
    I also considered Phenoxanol, and tried, tried... many times. anyway, Thank you very much for sharing your great idea.

    There are some basic understanding questions. What do you consider an amber?

    Amber - an accord (called amber for its color) - basic contains ethyl vanillin, bergamot, labdanum, resins etc.
    Ambergris - natural ambergris
    Woody ambers - are usually accords of woody ambery aromachemicals and naturals. For example vertenex, iso e super, trisamber, cedramber, cedroxide, trimofix, fixobois, amber extreme, kephalis etc.
    Ambroxan, Ambrox dl etc.- aromachemicals with facets of ambergris (diffusiveness) some again are woody as well.
    ?

    None of the above can be used to LIFT your accord which is based on white musks. They are predmonantly base, in some cases heart notes.

    Like Paul Kiler already told you, you are entirely missing top and heart notes.
    You need to find corresponding top and heart notes that work with your white musks (called white because they are synthetic and not of animal origin) to make your accord work at all.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Musk/Amber diffusive-ness suggestion Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfectscent View Post
    There are some basic understanding questions. What do you consider an amber?

    Amber - an accord (called amber for its color) - basic contains ethyl vanillin, bergamot, labdanum, resins etc.
    Ambergris - natural ambergris
    Woody ambers - are usually accords of woody ambery aromachemicals and naturals. For example vertenex, iso e super, trisamber, cedramber, cedroxide, trimofix, fixobois, amber extreme, kephalis etc.
    Ambroxan, Ambrox dl etc.- aromachemicals with facets of ambergris (diffusiveness) some again are woody as well.
    ?

    None of the above can be used to LIFT your accord which is based on white musks. They are predmonantly base, in some cases heart notes.

    Like Paul Kiler already told you, you are entirely missing top and heart notes.
    You need to find corresponding top and heart notes that work with your white musks (called white because they are synthetic and not of animal origin) to make your accord work at all.
    Woody ambers, and ambergris(Cetalox and Ambroxan.)
    and yes, As you said, They have similar scent... nuance.
    I know they are different, but I still believe they have in common. similar nuance.
    Now I'm trying make my things more perceptive with adding florals(Phenoxanol, Hedione, etc...). Thank you.




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