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Thread: Violet flower

  1. #1
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    Default Violet flower

    Hey all,
    I'm working with a violet flower accord, consisting mostly of various ionones (mostly isoraldeine 95, alpha and beta) as well as other smaller amounts of ingredients for depth and character (violet leaf absolute, iso eugenol for warmth, a little Jasmine sambac absolute, orris root replacer for fixative, muscone for fixative and ylang extra for floralizer). I'm using about 7% of it in my fragrance concentrate, with the purpose of making it the whole heart note of the fragrance, in combination with hedione, iso e super and Clearwood. But it's lacking the depth and volume I'm trying to get out of it. Some of it is due to the ratio of hedione:violet:isoesuper. But even after adjusting that, I still want more volume for the flower and I'm not getting the nose-filling depth I'm looking for. The Accord is great, but I was just wondering if anyone has suggestions for what to use to add depth and volume to the violet Accord??

    Thanks, happy Perfuming!

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
    Will

  2. #2

    Default Re: Violet flower

    Para-cresol is the most compound of violet flower ( viola odorata). Other is ionones, green notes and honey notes ( methyl heptine carbonate, beeswax abs is nice and geranyl tiglate good working for p-cresol and create very realistic fecal barnyard effect in violet).

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    Para-cresol is the most compound of violet flower ( viola odorata). Other is ionones, green notes and honey notes ( methyl heptine carbonate, beeswax abs is nice and geranyl tiglate good working for p-cresol and create very realistic fecal barnyard effect in violet).
    Oh okay, I'll check those out. I own those so I'll incorporate some in with the Accord. Any suggestions of things to use in combination with the Accord rather than being part of the Accord to help with the volume?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
    Will

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    Para-cresol is the most compound of violet flower ( viola odorata). Other is ionones, green notes and honey notes ( methyl heptine carbonate, beeswax abs is nice and geranyl tiglate good working for p-cresol and create very realistic fecal barnyard effect in violet).
    Kacper, I don't think that I'm a violet flower expert. But I really actually don't think that Para Cresol is the most important molecule for violet flower. In fact, I really don't think it has much place in a violet. I see it at 2.34% in the GC from Russia there, and offhand, this GC is only sa guide, and not the whole answer, your nose is the answer... but the main bits for Violet flowers are going to come from the Ionones.
    I am continually amazed at you, because you seem to offer bad and wrong advice, nearly every time you make a comment.

    OP Benjwi02 can consult two places for better cross referential information:
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/377907-Viola-odorata
    http://viness.narod.ru/violac.htm
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Violet flower

    My fiolets in my city smell very weak cresylic, fecal-barnyard like. Like p-cresol with green ( MHC) and green-honey ( maybe geranyl tiglate+beesfax abs+ methyl ionone gamma is decent in my opinion) type undertone. This not parma violet buy wild polish violet-viola odorata. This smell similar to small stinky yellow narcissus tete a tete. I ran a perfume workshop in April and showed you how to make a violet flower reproduction. Everyone felt a realistic violet. One woman told me that the first time she felt so real violets in perfume, while most violet perfumes smell artificial to her. Sure, it's about using the big dose p-cresol ( more than narcissus!)
    http://viness.narod.ru/violac.htm - in this GC in this link P-cresol ( 4 methylphenol) is high amount.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Kacper, I don't think that I'm a violet flower expert. But I really actually don't think that Para Cresol is the most important molecule for violet flower. In fact, I really don't think it has any place at all in a violet.
    I am continually amazed at you, because you seem to offer bad and wrong advice, nearly every time you make a comment.

    OP Benjwi02 can consult two places for better cross referential information:
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/377907-Viola-odorata
    http://viness.narod.ru/violac.htm
    Thanks Paul! I appreciate it. I'm still new to violet flower myself, as to why I'm coming to the forum. I looked into what you sent and I've taken some notes accordingly. Is there anything you personally would recommend for light, slightly powerdery florals to bring them out more? Like I'm using galaxolide of course, but something one would use for this type of clean floral in general... Sort of like how musks like habanolide can add a type of boost in composition and add a lifted feeling to perfumes.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
    Will

  7. #7

    Default Re: Violet flower

    My research suggests that dimethyl hydroquinone may be important to the natural violet character. It's a strong greenish-coumarinic scent by itself. In the GC it shows up at comparable volume to alpha-ionone or beta-ionone, but that's probably over-representing it because of its higher vapour pressure compared to them. There's also a bit of matsutake alcohol (<5%) in both flower and leaf GCs.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    My research suggests that dimethyl hydroquinone may be important to the natural violet character. It's a strong greenish-coumarinic scent by itself. In the GC it shows up at comparable volume to alpha-ionone or beta-ionone, but that's probably over-representing it because of its higher vapour pressure compared to them. There's also a bit of matsutake alcohol (<5%) in both flower and leaf GCs.
    Thank you so so much, I appreciate it a bunch. Would you mind please sending me the links to the GC's you used for these notes?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
    Will

  9. #9

    Default Re: Violet flower

    Septime- Yes! Dimethyl hydroquinone is evident in violet. I used this in my violet reco in workshop.
    You use this list:
    dimethyl hydroquinone
    p-cresol
    methyl ionone gamma
    methyl heptine carbonate
    beeswax absolute

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Orris butter....Nothing like it. You need to use real orris butter.
    Alpha and Beta Ionone are like sandpaper compared with real orris butter.
    They also lack GREEN notes present in orris butter which (As far as I understand) haven`t yet been replicated.


    Also, I would invest in smelling, sampling the master of all orris perfume creations.
    http://parfum-satori.com/en/about/

    Satori-san uses quality butter imported from the finest orris maker in all Europe.
    Her perfumes are minimalist which is not a problem because - to be honest - she has very good taste.
    Natural talent allows her create subtle, deep, very very smooth accords.
    A master of violets and orris/powdery materials. A master in the art of understatement.
    I did not appreciate orris butter until I smelled her creations.


    Ask her if its possible to order samples.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by benjwi02 View Post
    Thank you so so much, I appreciate it a bunch. Would you mind please sending me the links to the GC's you used for these notes?

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Sorry to revive a post (a six week delay isn't necroposting, is it?), but I finally found the headspace GC you wanted, benjwi02.

    gecko214's anonymous Viola odorata GC (see post #2)

    I went a step further and converted it to equivalent liquid measures by Philip Kraft's method (see post #57), because I wanted an excuse to try it and because I wanted to know how much dimethyl hydroquinone is actually reasonable:

    Benzyl benzoate 78.7%
    Methyl jasmonate 9.0%
    Beta-ionone 5.6%
    Alpha-ionone 4.1%
    Cis-jasmone 1.6%
    Dimethyl hydroquinone 0.4%
    Dihydro-beta-ionone 0.4%
    Linalool 0.1%
    [and the rest traces under 0.1%]

    That looks plausible, though the jasminey elements surprised me at first (but then methyl jasmonate is everywhere in nature, as it is a major plant defense mechanism). The ionone ratio checks out at 14:10:1. And now you know how much dimethyl hydroquinone to use . (In case you are into microdosing, the matsutake alcohol comes in at something like 0.04%.)

    Edit: whoops, I am reminded (thank you Bill) that Kraft's conversion method is for headspace GC's only, not for extracts, ergo my 'conversion' of the Russian Viola odorata concrete GC was nonsense. However the data at that link still supports Kacper's description of Eastern European violets as animalic-cresylic (containing para-cresol and heptanoic acid, which is rancid-cheesy-sweaty).
    Last edited by Septime; 20th July 2019 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Correcting my mistaken assumption

  12. #12

    Default Re: Violet flower

    I'm not sure how much or if this is found in a violet GC, but to me alpha irone smells very violet like. Clean and pretty linear, it's a beautiful scent with tenacity that isnt too bad. The only downside is its price!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    Great finds! I thank you for all the information, I'll definitely put it to good use! Yes, ironed are naturally found in violet and a true violet Accord can be made using them in compositions. But alas, I am 20 years old and cannot afford it.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
    Will

  14. #14

    Default Re: Violet flower

    Yes I Use beeswax absolute and geranyl tiglate to the ,,heptanoic acid" part of violet.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Violet flower

    Quote Originally Posted by benjwi02 View Post
    Hey all,
    I'm working with a violet flower accord, consisting mostly of various ionones (mostly isoraldeine 95, alpha and beta) as well as other smaller amounts of ingredients for depth and character (violet leaf absolute, iso eugenol for warmth, a little Jasmine sambac absolute, orris root replacer for fixative, muscone for fixative and ylang extra for floralizer). I'm using about 7% of it in my fragrance concentrate, with the purpose of making it the whole heart note of the fragrance, in combination with hedione, iso e super and Clearwood. But it's lacking the depth and volume I'm trying to get out of it. Some of it is due to the ratio of hedione:violet:isoesuper. But even after adjusting that, I still want more volume for the flower and I'm not getting the nose-filling depth I'm looking for. The Accord is great, but I was just wondering if anyone has suggestions for what to use to add depth and volume to the violet Accord??

    Thanks, happy Perfuming!

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Are you comfortable listing the formula for the violet accord? I might know a couple possible materials but it’s easier to see what’s going on that way.
    Currently wearing: Rush by Gucci

  16. #16

    Default Re: Violet flower

    It's ok to get your violet composition to the place you want it with some salicylates in it. Then once it's as close as you can get it then buy the irone's and add them in instead of some of the salicylate. Even expensive you can dilute them to 1% or 10% and they last a while that way and are useful for other projects.

    On another note. I don't think necroposting is bad and especially in a forum such as this one. We have guides that say do searches and stay on topic. As long as you are adding more pertinent information I don't care if you post 6 years late. It's nice to have everything in one place.

    To make a truly great violet perfume you probably do need more materials. For example, Velvetone has a good floral softness that might help plump up your volume. If you want depth then add Orivone and for green depth, phenyl acetal aldehyde diluted to 10% .10

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Violet flower

    If your looking for volume and texture within the entire composition, a sort of thickness....
    Have you tried Okoumal? (or other similar materials?)
    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...-givaudan.aspx

    You may want to experiment with your ratio of perfumers alcohol to DPG.
    Think about the overall thickness...




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