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  1. #1
    Basenotes Member
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    Default Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Hi All,

    I am looking to work on a thick, velvety, jammy rose accord to support a fragrance I am working on.

    I have been using the following:
    Rose absolute
    Pivarose
    PEA
    Raspberry Ketone
    Beta Ionone
    (Tiny touch of) Jasmine

    I also have some firascone in other areas of the fragrance.

    I like how it is coming along, but it lacks the thick/full body-ness that I am looking for.

    I am trying another combination with a good dose of sylvamber in to see how that 'thickens' it. But I am finding that it is all 'gone' a bit too quickly.

    What are your thoughts?

    Edit: Looking back, I have a suspicion that the PEA might not be helping me as much as I think it is - It might be making the rose too diffuse!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    for making it velvety i'd recommend dimethyl sulphide (in tiny tiny traces!), guaiac heart (robertet) might be helpful too. try to incorporate powdery musks like velvione or cosmone, those will work very well ionones. for a full body and the jammy aspect i would use patchouli (dark or aged, patchouli heart (robertet), or an absolute if you can source it. i've got an absolute from bayan bertrand which is the most jammy patchouli i ever encountered). patchouli will also help with extending the longevity of your rose accord. further ACs for longevity: rose crystals, phenethyl benzoate (will help with velvetness too...), phenethyl salicylate, phenylhexanol, phenyl methyl acetate or even phenyl acetic acid in traces. maybe beeswax absolute will help you too.

    btw: did you omit citronellol in purpose in the materials you used? i think its essential for a rose accord.
    in general for rose: consider to use damascones, eugenol related materials (especially methyl diantilis for its powdery drydown), cinnamic alcohol, aldehyde c 11, etc. its an endless list.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Hi,

    Thank you for your thorough and considered response.
    I hadn't considered DMS, so it is something I will experiment with! I will also try and incorporate some patchouli, and see if that helps.

    I did consider phenethyl benzoate, but I was struggling to find a supplier - so I will look again, and see what I can find. The beeswax absolute sounds like a really nice way to add some sweetness and warmth to it, too.

    I have been using firascone instead of the typical damascones, too, to avoid dosing issues.

    I think my shopping list is getting longer!!

    Thanks again

  4. #4

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Here is one link to a rose accord on the board: http://www.basenotes.net/threads/420...if-rose-accord
    There are suppliers that have rose accords made with damascone in it or you can get damascenone total
    I think Sylvamber or any of the ise e chemicals will only make rose more transparent. Maybe an amber resin with the sylvamber. A balsam base could make it heavier and have some fixative properties. Vanilla base could be heavy too.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Azurial View Post
    Hi,

    I have been using firascone instead of the typical damascones, too, to avoid dosing issues.


    Thanks again
    Oh, sorry I didn't see that you could do that with firascone, will have to try!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    When I think "jammy", both Davana and fruit sec come to mind.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Thea in Fl View Post
    Here is one link to a rose accord on the board: http://www.basenotes.net/threads/420...if-rose-accord
    There are suppliers that have rose accords made with damascone in it or you can get damascenone total
    I think Sylvamber or any of the ise e chemicals will only make rose more transparent. Maybe an amber resin with the sylvamber. A balsam base could make it heavier and have some fixative properties. Vanilla base could be heavy too.
    Thank you for the link!
    I will have a look through that for some inspiration.

    I think you are right with the sylvamber - a bit of evaluation has lifted everything, and actually the Beta ionone comes through the most now! ( and it is only a tiny tiny amount!!)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    When I think "jammy", both Davana and fruit sec come to mind.
    I had never heard of Davana before, but looking at it, it looks as though it would fit the theme of the fragrance very nicely - another to add to the shopping list!!

    Thanks

  9. #9

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Another one that I like for "jammy" is fir balsam absolute, as long as the "tree"-y-ness won't throw you off. Also osmanthus absolute, but that's...pricey. ;p

  10. #10

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    You do definitely need the damascones etc. since Firascone lasts a very short time. But they will form a very nice backbone together. I dilute mine to 10% but you could go lower if you need to but yes at least 10%.

    For jammy rose I have made one before and I like Fruitate. It's very useful in all sorts of things and it's sweet and jammy the way elderberry is without sugar. It would be a great partner to some of the other suggestions.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    I would use some ethyl maltol but it's pretty powerful - so even at 0.05-0.1% its effect would be more than noticeable. This will help to add some "jamminess".

    I have also experimented with using honey signature with rose and it blends very well together. It adds sweetness and body to the rose. Again this is very powerful and you can feel its effects at around 0.1%.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Fir balsam absolute, davana, ethyl maltol and osmanthus absolute are all excellent suggestions!
    - an accord from the above materials would be heaven! Expensive, but surely beautiful!
    I want to help newbies, like me!
    Matt`s Youtube channel: we examine materials, make accords and simple perfumes and talk all things scent related.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpi...5IG9nbG20t-lIQ

  13. #13

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Azurial View Post
    I did consider phenethyl benzoate, but I was struggling to find a supplier - so I will look again, and see what I can find.
    i'm pretty sure pell wall can source it for you as a special order. it will be a different price tag than at perfumers apprentice though.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    phenyl ethyl benzoate is available at PA. It is a very faint, somewhat spicy rosy note, I don't think it's going to give you what you're looking for.

    Try some phenyl ethyl acetate, maybe 4:1 ratio phenyl ethyl alcohol to phenyl ethyl acetate. It is sweet, rosy, and honey like. Of course it is only a top note.

    More importantly second the damascones, especially beta damascone and damascenone (naturally occuring ones in rose). Try them at <=0.1% total (very powerful, rose ketones are IFRA limit of 0.02% w/w) and see what you get.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions - I think it is clear that I need to reconsider the damascones!

    Davana sounds fantastic, so I will look to source some and see how I get on.

    I will also look at the phenyl ethyl acetate, as that looks to be pushing in the right direction!

    I think I will try trace amounts of ethyl maltol, too - I dont want it too candyfloss like - because the scent itself isn't meant to be too 'nice or friendly' - but It might add a touch more body alongside the other suggestions. Fruitate sounds good!
    I'll probably strip out the sylvamber - because it is adding too much lift!

    Thank you all for your continued input

  16. #16

    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    You may have already started your mix but if you have strawberry furanone - this would be quite a good material to try out on this too. Best of luck!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Thick Jammy Rose - Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    You may have already started your mix but if you have strawberry furanone - this would be quite a good material to try out on this too. Best of luck!
    Strawberry Furanone is extremely sweet. if used in this context, very small and careful dosing would be necessary.




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