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  1. #1
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    Default Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    One of the recent phenomenon I've noticed that seems to be becoming more and more common these days is the Frankenstein approach to scent creation that was ushered in by Sauvage where you take an accord from here, one from there, a base reminiscent of this and mids that intimate the other all tied together with a top which smells darn familiar.

    Missioni Pour Homme did it with its hybrid of BdCs grapefruit over a base heavily inspired by Midnight In Paris/Luna Rossa Black.

    Ferragamo Uomo has its whole La Haarlem Nuits thing going on although its biting isn't as blatant but still noticeable.

    Coach Platinum is a Sauvage slash Luna Rossa Carbon redux which does it better than both its inspirations.


    This whole style definitely wasn't that common back in the days so I guess its due to GCs becoming easier to come by or the industry actually just has a big book of accords that are so hot right now and everyone dives in and uses what they want much like sound libraries in production where you hear the same ol same ol kick drums and synths in so many tracks due to sheer laziness. Its quite odd when you consider but does make sense as every other field is facing this type of homogenization from motor vehicles that are all built on the same chassis to phones all aping the same design and many other points in between.

    A while back I spoke on the future of fumes when the big 3 via their IFRA bogeyman puppet show chase everyone else away and start manufacturing ACME perfume that is shipped out in tankers to malls where the same juice is filled into a cheapie, a designer and niche scent and the only difference is the bottle and price point. Sounds crazy but it seems thats the way its headed due to an industry that is mainly a tiny, shiny veneer over a huddle of bean counters doing what they do and preventing creativity from even rearing its head, just in case the annual share reports don't show year on year growth because of their blunder.

    Won't somebody please think of the Fahrenheit?


    What have you noticed in terms of releases that follow this same jigsaw approach?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    TdH Eau Intense Vetiver might fall into this category. To me, it has the vetiver and citrus from the original TdH mixed with Sichuan pepper a la Noir Anthracite and an amberwood base that feels stolen from Sauvage. I do like it, but it feels a bit like it's trying too hard to be a mall scent version of TdH.

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    Super Member painted_klown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    I have not been in the hobby long enough to recognize all of the designer fragrances that borrow from others, but I certainly see your point, and feel it's a good conversation to have,

    I see a lot of well versed fragrance enthusiasts on here that lament the fact that almost all new releases are flankers, and nothing new or innovative comes along anymore. Certainly nothing that's far off the beaten path. Franken-frags seem to be with what we're stuck with these days. However, I do have a couple of ideas on why that is the case.

    1. IFRA regulations are far too strict. Not only are perfumers limited on what they can use in fragrances, they are also limited to certain amounts of some chemicals. This leads to literally everyone (except Manny) being only able to select from a very finite amount of ingredients. With the restrictions also limiting the percentage of various chemicals, the perfumers aren't even allowed to mix these allowed chemicals as they wish. Instead they are all beholden to the same recipes and formulas. Their hands are tied. Hence, we live in ho-hum flanker land.

    2. Because of reason #1 (coupled with the desire to make money), the companies that release these bottles are simply sticking with what works (mass appealing stuff) due to (IMO) a bit of laziness and a fear of losing money hand over fist to launch a fragrance that might not sell. These guys are all afraid of getting axed due to the pressures to show profit every quarter. Most heads of large fragrance brands aren't going to be willing to make another Fahrenheit, M7, or Kouros because their jobs are on the line.

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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    This whole style definitely wasn't that common back in the days
    You're absolutely right, and thank God for that!
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    The building block approach to crafting fragrances has been around a lot longer than you think. Think ‘accords’. Just that with modern ACs you gain access to a broader range of cheap-and-sometimes-nasty captives. The ability of a perfumer to smoothen out the blend, blurring out the edges and adding depth is what makes a world of difference. As they say, it’s the painter that matters, not the paint.
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    I have not been in the hobby long enough to recognize all of the designer fragrances that borrow from others, but I certainly see your point, and feel it's a good conversation to have,

    I see a lot of well versed fragrance enthusiasts on here that lament the fact that almost all new releases are flankers, and nothing new or innovative comes along anymore. Certainly nothing that's far off the beaten path. Franken-frags seem to be with what we're stuck with these days. However, I do have a couple of ideas on why that is the case.

    1. IFRA regulations are far too strict. Not only are perfumers limited on what they can use in fragrances, they are also limited to certain amounts of some chemicals. This leads to literally everyone (except Manny) being only able to select from a very finite amount of ingredients. With the restrictions also limiting the percentage of various chemicals, the perfumers aren't even allowed to mix these allowed chemicals as they wish. Instead they are all beholden to the same recipes and formulas. Their hands are tied. Hence, we live in ho-hum flanker land.

    2. Because of reason #1 (coupled with the desire to make money), the companies that release these bottles are simply sticking with what works (mass appealing stuff) due to (IMO) a bit of laziness and a fear of losing money hand over fist to launch a fragrance that might not sell. These guys are all afraid of getting axed due to the pressures to show profit every quarter. Most heads of large fragrance brands aren't going to be willing to make another Fahrenheit, M7, or Kouros because their jobs are on the line.
    There is truth in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    The building block approach to crafting fragrances has been around a lot longer than you think. Think ‘accords’. Just that with modern ACs you gain access to a broader range of cheap-and-sometimes-nasty captives.
    Also truth in this.

    My unique spin:

    We had much more diffuse base notes when animalics and nitromusks were commonly used, and even after when oakmoss, sandalwood, and coumarin were not as restricted or depleted, so the rough edges of other ingredients could be more easily smoothed-over with a more-natural base. Arguably defaulting to "fougère" or "chypre" also prescribed the perfumer to a certain set of "building blocks", but wider diversity of ingredients and no regulations forcing the use of "conveniently monopolized" patent chemicals meant a fougère could be something round like Canoe, or sharp like Kouros. There were a few "Frankenstein" perfumes I found in vintage, but it often was a stylistic choice rather than ticking all the boxes on a Twitter-like trend algorithm.

    Now, unless you're doing all your perfuming in-house with your own labs, you're contracting out to the chem firms and have to use whatever perfumers or exclusive captives are on tap at IFF, Symrise, Givaudan, or Firmenich, and unlike a soda fountain, you can't mix their flavors!! I do believe there is a grain of truth in the allergen concern, but most of this industry regulatory nonsense is just a way for the chem firms funding it to wrest control away of the industry from the perfume houses so they can force them to work through their supply chain. Make the competition dangerous and offer the only "safe" alternative. We're basically looking at a trust within the perfume industry.

    I also kinda feel like with the rising prices of even designer "mall" perfumes, that none of this will matter in 5 to 10 more years. There will only be Walmart/Tesco aftershaves and body sprays for $10, then $150/$200+ entry-level niche/prestige perfumes as more designers pull what Van Cleef & Arpels did by axing their standard lines in favor of prestige ones, or do what Tom Ford has done and just gradually shift their base line perfumes up market (e.g. the Noir series) until only the legacy items in the standard line have a "designer" compositional feel (and price) to them.

    I also think Chanel's Allure Homme Edition Blanche Parfum and Bleu de Chanel Parfum ($150usd) are babysteps in this direction. The constant min/maxing of cost/profit and chem firms efforts to monopolize supply through lobbied regulation tells me that the current tier system of discount/designer/niche is unsustainable, with old entry-level brands like Coty, Revlon, Avon, etc circling the drain.

    With houses like Paco Rabanne or Azzaro as the "middle class" in this analogy, the designer tier is getting squeezed out, since even the stores they sell at are in trouble (i.e Macy's and Ulta). Rich people shop boutiques and want exclusivity. Poor people don't buy perfume unless it's on clearance at the outlet stores (I speak from personal experience). Where does that leave brands like Viktor & Rolf? Can't play the "nickel's worth of norlimbanol" game with IFF forever because not everyone will strike gold like Dior did with Sauvage.

    In summary, the patterns of construction are the same, but mainstream perfume houses are forced to source their blocks from fewer and fewer masonry yards, and have less combinations of bricks available, to both follow regulations and appease shareholders while staying within their "middle" market segment. External shell of luxury getting thinner and thinner, but internal democratization of the actual product growing as you suspected. The alternative is going upmarket, which doesn't always get you away from IFRA, but allows perfumers to play with stuff like real absolutes the bean counters wouldn't allow to be used per cost.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    1. IFRA regulations are far too strict. Not only are perfumers limited on what they can use in fragrances, they are also limited to certain amounts of some chemicals. This leads to literally everyone (except Manny) being only able to select from a very finite amount of ingredients. With the restrictions also limiting the percentage of various chemicals, the perfumers aren't even allowed to mix these allowed chemicals as they wish. Instead they are all beholden to the same recipes and formulas. Their hands are tied. Hence, we live in ho-hum flanker land.

    2. Because of reason #1 (coupled with the desire to make money), the companies that release these bottles are simply sticking with what works (mass appealing stuff) due to (IMO) a bit of laziness and a fear of losing money hand over fist to launch a fragrance that might not sell. These guys are all afraid of getting axed due to the pressures to show profit every quarter. Most heads of large fragrance brands aren't going to be willing to make another Fahrenheit, M7, or Kouros because their jobs are on the line.
    Not sure I totally agree with this and I'll attempt to get my thoughts down in a coherent way to explain why.

    1. IFRA restrictions - yeah, they are a pain but the key one that most people have an issue with, oakmoss, has only really affected the classics. This isn't a good thing from our perspective, clearly, but the whole style of perfume that used oakmoss has been out of vogue for a long time. Tastes change. What other IFRA restrictions have had a tangible effect on fragrances? Restrictions on Mysore sandalwood aren't an IFRA thing, of course.

    And to balance out these restrictions, perfumers have a far broader palette of other materials to use. Synthetics have been the mainstay of perfumery for quite a while now and we're all the more fragranced for it. There are far more things to drop into the mix these days than, say, 30 years ago. Whether or not these are used to create anything innovative is up to the house or the perfumer.

    2. Sticking with what works and flankers. Perfume houses sticking with what works isn't a new thing. You can look at perfume history and see clearly when perfume X has sparked a trend and was followed by perfumes Y and Z and so on. I'm sure this will be the same in years to come.

    And the flanker concern isn't a new thing either although it's done now on a far bigger scale than before. But if it gives the people what they want then it makes sense for businesses to do this. And some lines of flankers have included superb fragrances in their own right - the flankers that followed, for example, Dior Homme; Cartier Declaration, Fahrenheit and so on. Are they playing it safe by giving people what they want? If they sell well enough then they survive, and every company is ultimately looking to make money.

    Most head of large fragrances brands wouldn't have been willing to release a genuinely innovative scent like M7 historically, agreed. And it failed, so there's a lesson there about giving the public what they want or expect!

    I'm not sure Kouros or Fahrenheit were quite as groundbreaking at the time, although definitely polarising. I think they've gained a certain status after the event through boards like this and people discovering them outside of their original perfume context, if that makes sense. I can see how Kouros would be seen as mind blowing to someone smelling it for the first time today, however it was the signature scent of my socially conservative father for years and he wouldn't have worn it if it were that controversial at the time.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Good observations. Lol in my limited nose and knowledge - most things 'new' and pushed by SA's smell the same - see that 'what does generic frag mean' thread. Recently it's that woody accord that is in everything. Things forced on me by SA'S like the 'latest' Armani Code, Diesel, Mont Blanc and so forth all come across as very similar and 'meh' .
    Glad that there is still a huge variety of frags to be explored from yesteryear!
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    The building block approach to crafting fragrances has been around a lot longer than you think. Think ‘accords’. Just that with modern ACs you gain access to a broader range of cheap-and-sometimes-nasty captives. The ability of a perfumer to smoothen out the blend, blurring out the edges and adding depth is what makes a world of difference. As they say, it’s the painter that matters, not the paint.
    I agree with you.
    The difference is proliferation. There are simply too many 'houses' nowadays, and more flankers than anyone ever expected.
    Gone are the days of Fahrenheit and Polo Green being lone or 1 of maybe 3 options max.
    Now just about everything has a flanker. Literally.
    Some genius shines through once in a while depending on the 'painter' as you mentioned.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    I honestly think this FrankenFrag trend mostly comes down to the big firms openly using A.I. to generate variations on formulas based on a set of inputs, the best of which are then "finessed" by a perfumer-engineer like Firmenich's Morillas.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    I honestly think this FrankenFrag trend mostly comes down to the big firms openly using A.I. to generate variations on formulas based on a set of inputs, the best of which are then "finessed" by a perfumer-engineer like Firmenich's Morillas.
    Don't say that too loud as some people on here lose their shit when they see the truth. I've maintained from the jump that Sauvage was an AI driven creation due to a) how it smells b) the effect it had on the masses in terms of sales c) the way it feels and it all just ties in so well. The vast majority of pop records are all built the same way so why not this as well?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Don't say that too loud as some people on here lose their shit when they see the truth.
    It's not even a secret! Morillas is proud of the tech.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    I honestly think this FrankenFrag trend mostly comes down to the big firms openly using A.I. to generate variations on formulas based on a set of inputs, the best of which are then "finessed" by a perfumer-engineer like Firmenich's Morillas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Don't say that too loud as some people on here lose their shit when they see the truth. I've maintained from the jump that Sauvage was an AI driven creation due to a) how it smells b) the effect it had on the masses in terms of sales c) the way it feels and it all just ties in so well. The vast majority of pop records are all built the same way so why not this as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    It's not even a secret! Morillas is proud of the tech.
    I find this quite interesting, true or otherwise.

    The real question is this: is perfumery of this kind still art then???

    I think Aventus was possibly one of the first to 'benefit' from said A.I.

    I dunno, the way it GRABBED the masses was unprecedented.

    I will mention the movie Perfume that was showing on Netflix some time ago. A rough watch but a magnificent movie nonetheless. Sheds light on the quest to continue to control the masses...
    Waiting for Hednic's 8th star

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewthecologneguy View Post
    I find this quite interesting, true or otherwise.
    Morillas talks about A.I. perfumery tools around the 7 min mark here:

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewthecologneguy View Post
    I find this quite interesting, true or otherwise.

    The real question is this: is perfumery of this kind still art then???

    I think Aventus was possibly one of the first to 'benefit' from said A.I.

    I dunno, the way it GRABBED the masses was unprecedented.


    I will mention the movie Perfume that was showing on Netflix some time ago. A rough watch but a magnificent movie nonetheless. Sheds light on the quest to continue to control the masses...
    Interesting, what would make you think that? I do agree that there is something very special about Aventus and aside from the captives which give its sheen there is definitely some other kind of olfactive trickery tucked away in there that the rest of the game is unaware of/unable to replicate and thats what made it stand out from everything else.

    Case in point the current Aventus Cologne doesn't have that same allure when even after the reform the original still generates that reaction which none of the clones can, nor can they approximate anything beyond a reasonable facsimile with a passing similarity due to the known captives, and this leads me to think that whatever they're using is expensive and exclusive as that "effect" has never been present in any other scent - either by Creed or another. The captives used in Aventus have popped up in a few other places so you can get a feel for them out of the mix but whatever they used to create the olfactive equivalent of ASMR spine tingles the first time you smell it has only ever graced that composition and it pushes the scent beyond smelling into the territory of feeling.

    On the other hand you have the ridiculous batch variations, some of which may as well be flankers or almost entirely different scents altogether and this is another unanswered anomaly for which there are two options:

    Either, as speculated, Creed get their scents compounded at a few different places and whoever does it the cheapest gets a bonus and this allows them a modicum of freedom as to how much of what ingredient goes into the blend. Or they have the basic Aventus formula on deck which they do the equivalent of flicking the AI 8 Ball and seeing what pops out.

    This approach makes a lot more sense than hoping some nose in a unknown lab somewhere has enough creativity and gumption (or maybe its just Bourdon who keeps on playing with it?) to keep on subtly tweaking the formula each time he compounds it and there are a few blips here and there that make me think the AI approach may be part of it.

    The 14/15 batches were evidently humanly created due to how wild the swings were as it felt like they were scrambling to retain what defined the scent in the face of IFRA regulations and stuff like 15X01 was obviously the old formula sans the banned/restricted components which is why it smelled flat in comparison what it was trying to approximate. After a year or so in the wilderness they'd evolved the new Aventus style and you could chart its evolution in incremental steps as they worked it out as they went, but now?

    Case in point, batch 19P11 recently dropped and its very strong, features a rougher take on the base and has a very different bergamot dominated lead with pineapple playing second fiddle. Could it be coincidence that the concurrently released Mont Blanc Explorer with its bergamont dominated top notes over a rougher Aventus style base and strong performance was the inspiration and Creeds way of showing "Who run it?" as they check the upstart?

    Other things like switching out the smooth Ambergris for the nasty Amber Extreme in 17N01 just for one batch are just too weird as thats what added credence to the "Make it as cheap as you can" theory but upon reflection I'm now thinking it may be a combination of the two because Creed are looking to squeeze a few extra pennies out of their Milli Vanilli act by whatever means as the lions share of loot is going to the true power behind the artificially inflated throne they perch on who are evidently using what was a mistake with the first batch variations as a tool for free promotion as evidenced by its own subforum here, Facebook groups, YouTube videos and countless other forms of chatter as people play "Gotta collect em all!".

    Either way it keeps it interesting and is another facet that points to whoever is truly pulling the strings of the Creeds is well versed in the game and knows exactly how to play the market for maximum profits via minimal outlay.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewthecologneguy View Post
    I find this quite interesting, true or otherwise.

    The real question is this: is perfumery of this kind still art then???

    I think Aventus was possibly one of the first to 'benefit' from said A.I.

    I dunno, the way it GRABBED the masses was unprecedented.

    I will mention the movie Perfume that was showing on Netflix some time ago. A rough watch but a magnificent movie nonetheless. Sheds light on the quest to continue to control the masses...
    Have you ever read Luca Turin's mention of the film Perfume?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    I don't want this to turn into an Aventus thread--we have enough of those, including a very long one about its origins--but I'd wager that Aventus *wasn't* really a product of the A.I. process we're talking about (at the time Aventus was in development, the A.I. process would have been big and expensive and in its relative infancy in the industry), but something like the Givaudan-produced Montblanc Explorer almost certainly was.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    Morillas talks about A.I. perfumery tools around the 7 min mark here:

    Thanks for the video. I was thinking something totally different concerning A.I. - something a bit more sinister. In this particular case it is acceptable to automate the art, which makes it 'artificial'. So back to what you said originally - the painter makes the final touches and thus the difference.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestbrummie View Post
    Have you ever read Luca Turin's mention of the film Perfume?
    No I haven't. I'll seek it out though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    I don't want this to turn into an Aventus thread--we have enough of those, including a very long one about its origins--but I'd wager that Aventus *wasn't* really a product of the A.I. process we're talking about (at the time Aventus was in development, the A.I. process would have been big and expensive and in its relative infancy in the industry), but something like the Givaudan-produced Montblanc Explorer almost certainly was.
    Ha! Well, Aventus is one of the most successful fragrances in history, and certainly of our time. It is almost a decade old and it still conjures 'issues' as your reluctance to dive into it suggests
    Waiting for Hednic's 8th star

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Interesting, what would make you think that? I do agree that there is something very special about Aventus and aside from the captives which give its sheen there is definitely some other kind of olfactive trickery tucked away in there that the rest of the game is unaware of/unable to replicate and thats what made it stand out from everything else.

    Case in point the current Aventus Cologne doesn't have that same allure when even after the reform the original still generates that reaction which none of the clones can, nor can they approximate anything beyond a reasonable facsimile with a passing similarity due to the known captives, and this leads me to think that whatever they're using is expensive and exclusive as that "effect" has never been present in any other scent - either by Creed or another. The captives used in Aventus have popped up in a few other places so you can get a feel for them out of the mix but whatever they used to create the olfactive equivalent of ASMR spine tingles the first time you smell it has only ever graced that composition and it pushes the scent beyond smelling into the territory of feeling.

    On the other hand you have the ridiculous batch variations, some of which may as well be flankers or almost entirely different scents altogether and this is another unanswered anomaly for which there are two options:

    Either, as speculated, Creed get their scents compounded at a few different places and whoever does it the cheapest gets a bonus and this allows them a modicum of freedom as to how much of what ingredient goes into the blend. Or they have the basic Aventus formula on deck which they do the equivalent of flicking the AI 8 Ball and seeing what pops out.

    This approach makes a lot more sense than hoping some nose in a unknown lab somewhere has enough creativity and gumption (or maybe its just Bourdon who keeps on playing with it?) to keep on subtly tweaking the formula each time he compounds it and there are a few blips here and there that make me think the AI approach may be part of it.

    The 14/15 batches were evidently humanly created due to how wild the swings were as it felt like they were scrambling to retain what defined the scent in the face of IFRA regulations and stuff like 15X01 was obviously the old formula sans the banned/restricted components which is why it smelled flat in comparison what it was trying to approximate. After a year or so in the wilderness they'd evolved the new Aventus style and you could chart its evolution in incremental steps as they worked it out as they went, but now?

    Case in point, batch 19P11 recently dropped and its very strong, features a rougher take on the base and has a very different bergamot dominated lead with pineapple playing second fiddle. Could it be coincidence that the concurrently released Mont Blanc Explorer with its bergamont dominated top notes over a rougher Aventus style base and strong performance was the inspiration and Creeds way of showing "Who run it?" as they check the upstart?

    Other things like switching out the smooth Ambergris for the nasty Amber Extreme in 17N01 just for one batch are just too weird as thats what added credence to the "Make it as cheap as you can" theory but upon reflection I'm now thinking it may be a combination of the two because Creed are looking to squeeze a few extra pennies out of their Milli Vanilli act by whatever means as the lions share of loot is going to the true power behind the artificially inflated throne they perch on who are evidently using what was a mistake with the first batch variations as a tool for free promotion as evidenced by its own subforum here, Facebook groups, YouTube videos and countless other forms of chatter as people play "Gotta collect em all!".

    Either way it keeps it interesting and is another facet that points to whoever is truly pulling the strings of the Creeds is well versed in the game and knows exactly how to play the market for maximum profits via minimal outlay.
    First, my hat's off to your journalistic prowess here, even if displayed with restraint - I suspect if given the time and space you could write a book on various fragrances and their nuances.

    You mentioned EVERYTHING I had in mind - supplier issues, A.I. gamble, fame from batch variations, perhaps a combination of all these things. I do gather that Creed was not expecting this amount of fame from Aventus. Nothing they've since released has generated the same amount of notoriety. Granted, it did launch as people were warming up to 'social media' and then YouTube was monetized, the Arab 'spring' in perfumery (all the UAE houses that appeared out of nowhere, the oud invasion) and other factors.

    So, what would make me think that? Well, at first sniff, I loved Aventus, and still do. All variations, knock offs included. There is something INSTANTLY likable about it that can't be said for other fragrances. And my personal tinkering with Aventus-like jus garnered curiously excessive response.

    I do remember that Polo Blue and L'Eau D'Issey having similar 'love at first sniff' effects, but where are they now? Tom Ford's Tuscan Leather comes to mind as well, although that jus is a sexual beast. I remember that movie theater I was watching 50 Shades of Gray would pump the stuff through the vents during selected scenes. How's that for A.I.-esque meddling?
    Waiting for Hednic's 8th star

  21. #21

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/463...L+INTELLIGENCE

    I made a thread about that here maybe three months ago or so, it didn't seem to get much traction. Zealot Crusader just summed it up here pretty nicely. I think the masses are being conditioned to accept AI driven "generic" releases while at the same time the industry waters down the classics in an attempt to sort of "rewrite history." That way the big masstige brands can capitalize on accords which have already been done before in the designer realm but charge much more for it.

    Palmolive, imagine Tom Ford or Roja releases nearly identical vintage Fahrenheit but charges $400 for it. I would bet that alot of the noveau rich would be none the wiser and eat it up.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewthecologneguy View Post
    First, my hat's off to your journalistic prowess here, even if displayed with restraint - I suspect if given the time and space you could write a book on various fragrances and their nuances.

    You mentioned EVERYTHING I had in mind - supplier issues, A.I. gamble, fame from batch variations, perhaps a combination of all these things. I do gather that Creed was not expecting this amount of fame from Aventus. Nothing they've since released has generated the same amount of notoriety. Granted, it did launch as people were warming up to 'social media' and then YouTube was monetized, the Arab 'spring' in perfumery (all the UAE houses that appeared out of nowhere, the oud invasion) and other factors.

    So, what would make me think that? Well, at first sniff, I loved Aventus, and still do. All variations, knock offs included. There is something INSTANTLY likable about it that can't be said for other fragrances. And my personal tinkering with Aventus-like jus garnered curiously excessive response.

    I do remember that Polo Blue and L'Eau D'Issey having similar 'love at first sniff' effects, but where are they now? Tom Ford's Tuscan Leather comes to mind as well, although that jus is a sexual beast. I remember that movie theater I was watching 50 Shades of Gray would pump the stuff through the vents during selected scenes. How's that for A.I.-esque meddling?
    Sometimes a scent comes along and just captures the zeitgeist perfectly with its appeal. Issey was definitely the Aventus of its day and in many ways ushered in trends that reverberate still even if it isn't held in the same regard as time has passed by as the trends it set have been bettered but it still stands alone as the benchmark.

    When it happens naturally its a thing of beauty as a multitude of factors line up and olfactive excellence makes its presence felt. That however is definitely not the case with the scents that motivated this thread as it definitely seems like AI meddling is the name of the game as companies attempt to recreate the magic via tech instead of artistry with an eye on the bottom line instead of creativity.

    The implications on a grander scale of this latest step in perfumery however all point toward the ACME scenario I posited in the OP as illustrated:



    Whats crazy is the public eats these auditory "batch variations" up and often don't spot the similarities until they're pointed out.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack103 View Post
    while at the same time the industry waters down the classics in an attempt to sort of "rewrite history"
    I think it's more likely that this isn't part of some sinister strategy and is really just bean-counters cutting corners on fragrances that aren't top-sellers. The fashion industry is driven by market forces, always excited about what's "now" and not about what "was."

    Sure, Tom Ford does seem more than happy to apply a fresh coat of aromachemical paint to "reinvent" classic fragrances that are then sold at a higher price point, but I don't think he's doing it as part of a coordinated industry effort to wipe out the memory of the past. This kind of "reinvention" is part and parcel of the fashion industry and has been for some time. "History Repeating" and all that.

    I do, however, agree that the mainstream fragrance space is seeing a reduction in quality and experimentation, and that brands are increasingly offering fragrances in tiers of "quality"--much in the same way that auto manufacturers purposefully keep the "affordable" cars looking a bit plain and basic in order to preserve the "ooh" and "ahh" appeal of the sportier designs sold in luxury tiers.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Not familiar as to how Fahrenheit can relate to and/or be rated like this (apart from a few Fahrenheit flankers that might be closer to this characterization and not all of these).
    Did however experience this especially with the sheer almost inflation-like amount of Emporio Armani flankers but also to Bleu de Chanel, that seem to follow this jigsaw, a bit of everything approach.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_Russell View Post
    Not familiar as to how Fahrenheit can relate to and/or be rated like this (apart from a few Fahrenheit flankers that might be closer to this characterization and not all of these).
    Did however experience this especially with the sheer almost inflation-like amount of Emporio Armani flankers but also to Bleu de Chanel, that seem to follow this jigsaw, a bit of everything approach.
    I think Palmolive in the OP was emphasizing how Fahrenheit came about in a similar manner (it was essentially a synthesis of Michael Almairac and Jean-Louis Sieuzac's ideas which were left to mix together in a forgotten barrel) albeit organically and without any AI assistance. I was playfully suggesting that Tom Ford, for example, could release something like "Goudron et Violettes" and charge $300 for it, and people who never smelled Fahrenheit would probably buy it simply because it's Tom Ford and they have a lot of money to blow.

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    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Exactly! The legend of how Fahrenheit was birthed rings so true for me because the scent itself smells so timeless and is an olfactive law unto itself. This makes it the very antithesis of modern AI fragrances and if this trend were to continue means that we won't see another of its kind ever again.

    Its not without reason that I say its quite possibly the greatest fragrance ever made because it smells so amazing and leads the league in so many statistical categories.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Exactly! The legend of how Fahrenheit was birthed rings so true for me because the scent itself smells so timeless and is an olfactive law unto itself. This makes it the very antithesis of modern AI fragrances and if this trend were to continue means that we won't see another of its kind ever again.
    In the mainstream designer space, probably.

    In the artisan/niche space, you'll still get weird stuff. It'll just cost ya more.
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack103 View Post
    I think Palmolive in the OP was emphasizing how Fahrenheit came about in a similar manner (it was essentially a synthesis of Michael Almairac and Jean-Louis Sieuzac's ideas which were left to mix together in a forgotten barrel) albeit organically and without any AI assistance. I was playfully suggesting that Tom Ford, for example, could release something like "Goudron et Violettes" and charge $300 for it, and people who never smelled Fahrenheit would probably buy it simply because it's Tom Ford and they have a lot of money to blow.
    Interesting point about having never smelled a fragrance or notes sequence. This is one of the most important parts of making money in fragrance. Can you imagine how many more bottles of X fragrance you can sell to an audience that has never smelled it before? This phenomenon used to happen in regions, as far back as centuries ago. It gave birth to the tagging of certain notes/jus as special (italian bergamot and japanese yuzu versus plain ol' lemon and lime).

    With Tom Ford specifically, I find that changing the concentration arrives at the same gimmick. A bombastic aroma your sense must love because it is ever present.

    That said, I would not mind a Tom Ford take on Fahrenheit.
    Waiting for Hednic's 8th star

  29. #29

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Palmolive View Post
    Exactly! The legend of how Fahrenheit was birthed rings so true for me because the scent itself smells so timeless and is an olfactive law unto itself. This makes it the very antithesis of modern AI fragrances and if this trend were to continue means that we won't see another of its kind ever again.

    Its not without reason that I say its quite possibly the greatest fragrance ever made because it smells so amazing and leads the league in so many statistical categories.
    I believe there are a few that would successfully vie for that position, including Kouros. Although Fahrenheit might be unique due to is accidental creation, the fact that the origins were the mental lobes of those who are guidon bearers of the art will no doubt embellish their efforts forever.

    Sadly, the day will come when a gem like Fahrenheit will be irrelevant to the populace. Ditto Aventus and others...
    Waiting for Hednic's 8th star

  30. #30

    Default Re: Fragrant jigsaws aka lazy noses hopping on the rickshaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewthecologneguy View Post
    That said, I would not mind a Tom Ford take on Fahrenheit.
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