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  1. #1
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    Default Quince accord question for you

    Since I am researching the odor profile of Quince fruit, as it is out of my range of experiences, I bought this quince marmalade from Portugal. Can anyone help me to understand how close or different the odor profile might be from this marmalade to the fresh, but cooked fruit? Researching for a new Van Gogh inspired perfume...

    I built a quince accord for a client's perfume, but it was a big, but educated guess. Now, I'd like to really work on it...

    Portugal Quince marmalade and Van Gogh.jpg

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    I've only had quince in the form of that paste that the Spanish make from it, and I'm told all the sugar made it quite different from the fresh, which I suppose would be the case with your marmalade too. But here's a post that Mumsy made about researching the accord when she was processing a load of the fresh fruit:

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/414...=1#post3669279

  3. #3

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    One thing to remember is that quince is not that often cooked alone, because it has a strong astringency. Hence why it is mostly cooked with either some sugar, or added to other fruits (apple). Apparently some varietals can be eaten as is but those are not common.


    For a long time, quinces were also hanged in houses to perfume them, much like you would do with a bouquet of lavender.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Yes, the addition of sugar makes a significant difference to the aroma, as does the higher temperature (~105 °C) used in marmalade making. The aroma becomes more sweet due to the interaction between the sugar and organic acids.

    The aroma of the gently simmered and unsweetened juice is not as sweet-smelling. One would therefore expect the aroma of the marmelo lactones and marmelo oxides to be more dominant.

    If the quinces were baked, as is often the case, then the greater oxygen exposure may also play a role. Oxidation of beta-carotene, for example, can lead to the formation of aldehydes and ketones such as b-cyclocitral and b-ionone. The latter has been detected in the essential oil of quince. Degradation of neoxanthin is believed to be a pathway involved in the formation of b-damascenone, which is reported to have an odour similar to that of cooked quince. It's also worth mentioning that structurally related compounds such as tabanon have been detected in the essential oil of quince.
    Last edited by Pears; 20th June 2019 at 10:27 PM.

  5. #5
    Basenotes Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    The oil of Quince (Cydonia Oblonga) is gained by putting the peel (or more) for min 2 weeks in alcohol and shaking daily. The essential oil seems not to be available, but a hydrosol, which is true to smell of the fruit.
    https://maienfelser-naturkosmetik.de/navi.php?qs=Quitte

    There are two Quinces I know about: Apple-Quince (Cydonia Oblonga var. Maliformis; Constantinople Apple Quince) and Pear-Quince (Cydonia Oblonga var. Oblonga; Portuguese Pear Quince) . The Constantinople Apple-Quince is more aromatic an superior to the other varieties.

    Chemical Composition of the Essential Oil of Quince (Cydonia Oblonga Miller) Leaves:
    https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc...2.1000e134.pdf
    chemical-composition-of-the-essential-oil-of-quince-cydonia-oblonga-miller-leaves-2167-0412.1000.jpg
    Last edited by Ivor Joedy; 26th June 2019 at 10:02 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Can anyone help me to understand how close or different the odor profile might be from this marmalade to the fresh, but cooked fruit?
    The difference is significant, but I think that it would be better if you could compare for yourself. Whole pieces of cooked quince, for comparison:

    https://www.minafoodsinc.com/store/p...Naturals_.html

    The quinces below may have been cooked less. The colour generally deepens with cooking time, but quinces that are cooked in the jar (i.e., without air) colour much less:

    https://armeniadirect.com/collection...ince-compote-1
    https://armeniadirect.com/collection...ince-compote-2
    https://armeniadirect.com/collection...ince-compote-3
    Last edited by Pears; 21st June 2019 at 06:57 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    I love the fragrance of fresh quince!
    I have a quince note in one of my fragrances. I built the note by first creating an apple accord and accenting it with some aspects of pineapple.
    Check out the Latin markets. They tend to bring in fresh quince (membrillo) from time to time.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    I built the note by first creating an apple accord and accenting it with some aspects of pineapple.
    That would make perfect sense Manuel, seeing as you're from California. One of the main cultivars grown there is called 'Pineapple', which has a slight pineapple flavour:

    Pineapple Quince is a tender pale yellow fruit with white flesh and slight pineapple flavor. Used for jelly preserves, and as an addition to applesauce. Pineapple quince makes a lovely landscaping tree, with rose-pink blooms and twisted branches for winter interest. Developed by Luther Burbank in Santa Rosa, CA in 1899.
    https://www.treesofantiquity.com/ind...roducts_id=273


    Van Gogh painted this particular work in Paris, so he may have used a French variety. Some old French varieties include 'Angers' and 'De Bourgeaut'. Tremaine Arkley and Earl Bruck from Oregon Quinces (see here) grow mainly 'Portugal', but according to one article Earl also has 125 trees of an old French variety.

    For quinces produced closer to home see below (enter your location in the right box, or use the map):

    https://www.localharvest.org/search....m=prods:quince

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Wow Paul I'm super excited that You started working on the quince accord If You won't manage to arrange
    the fresh fruit till the autumn I will do my best to send You one ( its not season for it yet but it's starts around September )
    Did I inspire You a bit to work on it ?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    cashmeran, ethyl safranate...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Midden, is your interest in the quince also related to Van Gogh's painting, or do you just like the smell?

    I think that ethyl safranate would work well, Geco. Damascenone is structurally very similar and is reported to have a cooked quince-like aroma (Kotseridis et al., 1999).

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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Pears, honestly my interesy is more related to the amazing fragrance and above that my father in law made a liquor from quince. That was absolutely best one I've drunk in my life

  13. #13

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Ah, I see. I have a Japanese quince (Chaenomeles japonica) bush in my garden and the smell of the fruit is so captivating that I too was compelled to make a liqueur with them. Did your father-in-law use Japanese quince or true quince?

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    MiDDen, While I was in the Van Gogh Museum, Amsterdam, following receipt of my golden pear A+O Award, One subject i sought was to see if there was a third painting that might inspire a third perfume based on Van Gogh's works. The painting Quinces, lemons, pears and grapes, Vincent van Gogh September 1887 - October 1887, struck me as a perfect inspiration, and will be paired with another Van Gogh floral painting for the remainder of the perfume.

    There may have been some inspiration from requests for a Quince base, yes... ;-)
    Especially since it is yet an unconquered idea for me... But since I am rather unfamiliar with quince, I needed to really understand what makes Quince tick, especially if I am to combine lemon, pear, apple and quince together, since it seems that apple, pears and quince seem so close to each other olfactively. For instance, how do I pull them apart to delineate each of them? Is that possible?

    Van Gogh Lemon Quince pear apple.jpg

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    OKAY Quince experts!

    I have three headspace GC's to consult with for Quince:

    Chinese Quince, or Chaenomeles sinensis

    Japanese Quince, or Chaenomeles speciosa (sweet) Nakai

    and
    Quince, or Cydonia Oblonga Mill

    Anyone have a preference for me to aim at?

    Next, I put together my quince accord that I built for a client's perfume previously, and it smells beautiful, and a lot like a very ripe Feijoa, or as we called it growing up, pineapple guava fruit. Which is funny, because I already *have* a feijoa accord... the quince base doesn't really have any pineapple bits in it, at least that you think of as such. though...

    So, if anyone happens to know the scent of Feijoa AND Quince, maybe you can give some shape to my thoughts..

    Thanks!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    So, if anyone happens to know the scent of Feijoa AND Quince, maybe you can give some shape to my thoughts
    I know them both well (I LOVE feijoa). Never put the two together before in my mind even though at Latin markets the two are sold fresh and in sweetened paste form for eating with cheeses. (Feijoa isn't used as the standard guava for the paste however)

    The tropical fruity, pineappley bits of feijoa are more akin to the aroma of fresh quince, but not the sweaty b.o. part of the guava scent. Anyone that has had a bowl of fresh guavas sitting on the dining room table will know what I mean :-)
    The remainder of quince fragrance is like that of ripe apples -even Asian pear to some extent.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    I have used fresh quince (French and Swedish varieties) in cooking and the difference between quince and yellow apples is that quince have a more perfumed, flowery scent. The finer nuances disappear when cooking but it retains the sweet fruitiness. If you have a good yellow apple accord you could try to add some applelide and maybe some jasmine acs or mimosa abs perhaps. Maybe a very small amount of melonal.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    As one common variety is called 'Pineapple', it seems logical that some quinces might possess a note similar to pineapple guava. However, this might be less indicative of older varieties. Luther Burbank - the creator of 'Pineapple' - seems to suggest so:

    Indeed, the new fruit not only retains the indescribable but exquisite savor of its tribe, but has taken on quite pronouncedly the flavor of the pineapple, justifying its name in the estimate of most persons who have eaten it.
    https://archive.org/details/lutherbu...brich/page/212


    However, in order to select for this trait, the genes responsible must have been present in it's ancestors, so a less pronounced pineapple note may still be helpful.

    The marmelo lactones found in true quince are very difficult to source, so a suitable alternative would be helpful. Their olfactive descriptions are very vague ("fruity" and "floral"), so all that we can really do is go by their structures. Structurally they are very similar to cis-jasmone, cis-jasmone lactone and jasmin lactone. One of the main differences is that the marmleo lactones possess a branched chain. However, pentenyl cyclopentanone is branched in the same position and retains a jasmin-like odour. Obviously, the structure alone can only give a very rough indication, so you'll just have to play around with them to see what you can come up with.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by birdie View Post
    I have used fresh quince (French and Swedish varieties) in cooking and the difference between quince and yellow apples is that quince have a more perfumed, flowery scent.
    Agreed, both smell more floral than apples. For those that don't know, the French varieties are primarily Cydonia oblonga and the Swedish varieties are Chaenomeles japonica/speciosa.
    Last edited by Pears; 23rd June 2019 at 10:14 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Agreed, both smell more floral than apples. For those that don't know, the French varieties are primarily Cydonia oblonga and the Swedish varieties are Chaenomeles japonica/speciosa.
    Thanks, no I did not know that.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Btw, I'm at the French Riviera right now and some of the yellow apples here are just exquisite.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Paul,
    I grew up on an apple farm, we had several quince. Hard as stones! Cydonia oblonga
    Raw flesh is hardly fragrant, but it`s skin has a unique smell.

    The fuzzy dust surrounding fresh quince (quince on the tree) is what gives it this unique floral profile.
    The dusty skin, and perhaps the naval of the quince fruit carries;
    dusty, nearly patchouli aspects
    green grassy - woody beta ionone type fragrance
    slight apricot/osmanthus floral nuances - slightly lactonic, which is offset/counterbalanced by it`s dusty texture


    Uncooked Quince flesh has very little scent, it`s green - like unripened apples. Most bitter, tart green.
    But once it`s cooked it does take on;
    unripened bananas + tart apples (green)
    slightly apricots florals
    slight lemon profile too


    We had 57 varieties of apples, pears, apricots, cherries, quince etc on our fruit farm.
    Trust me, the tree dust (especially on apricots and peach) really contributes a unique scent that VERY FEW perfumers bother trying to replicate.
    Sure "pettigrain," exists....

    But the pettigrain, the smaller branches, the tree dust, the flowers, the resins from the peach and apricot trees is superior to that of the bitter orange tree.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Cydonia Oblonga I know well.
    It smell like a weak, powdery mimosa and osmanthus accord.
    complex, unfocused. Floral, yet dusty woody.
    beta ionone and clearwood (soft patchouli) base notes
    lemon and green banana top notes.

    Go with Cydonia Oblonga.
    A Cydonia Oblonga accord should smell as powdery as it is woody, as it is floral.
    very well balanced, very soft. Not overly fruity.


    The apple which smells closest to quince is an over ripe gingergold.
    Cross that with peach and apricot...
    Divide the intensity to .25% and add dusty woody notes...
    Add mimosa, and unfocused floral accords high in beta ionone...
    I`m talking dusty wild flowers of the prairies, sweet but also very dry-grass like.

    That is Cydonia Oblonga, the floral aspects float ABOVE the fruit within a cloud of woody particulates and dusty powder materials...

  24. #24

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Yes, quinces are often less fragrant when raw. There are a few varieties that are considerably more fragrant than others, such as 'Vranja'. Cloning is the best way to insure a consistently higher fragrance.

    As Matt pointed out, quinces often have a peach or apricot-like note. It's more the neutral aroma that they share in common, rather than the highly distinctive character in each. In that way, it is also similar to the mirabelle plum. It's worth mentioning that some of the compounds that I previously mentioned (related to the marmello lactones) also possess notes of peach and apricot. If you wanted to further enhance the effect then you could also add a little Veloutone.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    add a little Veloutone.
    I was just thinking of veloutone, but I am a little hesitant, until I can get the real fruit to smell.
    But I am curious, how much Rose is in there, Any thought for that?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Rose, in quince?
    Very little classic rose.

    *BUT, some roses DO smell waxy, slightly peach and apple like....
    This waxy, apple element is certainly within quince. But classic "rose," definitely not in quince.
    Quince certainly does not have a sharp lemon top note often found in some more intense rose flowers.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    i forgot...a little touch of davana, also...

  28. #28

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I was just thinking of veloutone, but I am a little hesitant, until I can get the real fruit to smell.
    But I am curious, how much Rose is in there, Any thought for that?
    There's a fair amount of rose ketones in quince, especially when cooked. However, as you know, most of these are only vaguely rose-like by themselves. B-damascone and b-ionone have been detected in appreciable amounts, as has 3,4-didehydro-b-ionol (0.9, 0.15 and 3.6% of volatiles, respectively). Damascenone recalls the aroma of cooked quince, so it may also be present. If not, then the megastigma-4,6,8-trien-3-one (4 stereoisomers, 2.9%) may be modifying the overall effect, as this also possesses a dry tobacco note.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Pears; 27th June 2019 at 12:10 AM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Quince accord question for you

    Hi Paul,

    When checking out the Bedoukian site I came across methyl amyl ketone and noticed it was recommended for quince fragrances.

    https://search.bedoukian.com/flavorf...hod=POP&id=600

    Hope this helps.

    Barry




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