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  1. #1

    Default idea for mock oud accord

    The fragrance of oud is often desired in fragrances, but natural oud itself can be very expensive, and cheaper substitutes have been sought.

    I was smelling Chinese aloeswood and trying to tease out all the subtle notes in there, comparing it to an olfactory library of other things to try to more precisely describe what the fragrance smells like. As many of you know, oud or aloeswood is a unique fragrance that is very hard to be able to describe.

    The below is an outline of a mock "oud" accord, with other lower price ingredients to try to mimic the combined notes in oud.


    Cypriol (Nagarmotha root, not the synthetic)

    in medium amounts:

    Virginiana cedar
    Atlas or Himalayan cedar
    synthetic sandalwood fragrance (polysantol, javanol, etc)
    Trimofix O (Fixamber), or if not available, Tabanone, or Symroxane
    synthetic grapefruit fragrance (methyl pamplemousse) or nootkatone

    in much smaller amounts:

    Bubblegum fragrance (cherry, banana, strawberry fragrance)
    coumarin
    very very small hint cloves
    honey fragrance (phenylacetaldehyde)
    very very small hint of raspberry ketone (optional)


    Cypriol EO really does have the same type of basic overall smell as aloeswood, except minus some of the distinct exquisite nuances found in oud, and there are a few minor differences. And of course cypriol is much cheaper in bulk than oud.

    Oud has some unique subtly sweet nuances, almost reminiscent of benzoin (with perhaps a tiny hint of coumarin), but also with a bit of a woody grapefruit that reminds me of nootkatone. It also has a woody pungent effect to it like sandalwood, and just a little balsamic like Atlas cedarwood.

  2. #2

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Piconia (isolongifolanone) may be another useful synthetic here.
    It is one of the fragrance compounds derived from longifolene, and supposedly has a cedar-patchouli-tobacco smell.
    It is also a ketone with a similar molecular structure to the chromones in oud.

  3. #3

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    You're actually pretty close on some of the ingredients Philip Kraft selected for his "Oudini" oud accord on the Scent and Chemistry FB page. Woody, fruity notes, etc. He also uses cashmeran/kephalis and a large amount of Civettone which I personally don't want to pay for lol. If you google/search for Oudini you should be able to find it. I'm curious if anyone has made it?


  4. #4

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    being curious if anyone made it, too. it contains frightening 3% evernyl. maybe the civettone is balancing this?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    ..a touch of kephalis, to my nose, are precious...and a very little touch of birch tar....

  6. #6

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Geco View Post
    ..a touch of kephalis, to my nose, are precious...
    I would have to agree. Kephalis reminds me of something exquisite, somehow reminiscent of an ornate Persian rug.
    It has a little bit of a spiciness though (maybe almost slightly peppery), I'm not sure how well that part would go with the oud accord.

    You could use it as a replacement for the [Fixamber, Tabanone, Symroxane] category that my idea called for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Geco View Post
    ...and a very little touch of birch tar....
    I'm not sure about that.
    That's some very potent stuff. I presume you're talking about wanting a little darkness and smokiness?
    I think the Cypriol (Nagarmotha) would help provide most of that effect, and maybe a touch of Myrrh might add some more darkness (though at the risk of sending the fragrance off in a slightly different direction, though still exquisite).

    If I were you, I would smell Cypriol before you talk about wanting to add birch tar (if you haven't already).
    It does have a facet to it that has a similar sort of feeling to pine tar, which in turn smells very very similar to birch tar.


    (Also just a quick note, we are talking about Cypriol root essential oil, not Cypriol the synthetic that is something totally different. Just needed to point that out to avoid any possible confusion)

  7. #7

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Also on the subject of coumarin, one possible replacement for that might be dihydro mint lactone (dihydromint lactone, koumalactone).
    It's supposed to have some fruity, tropical creamy nuances.

    Arcadi boix Camps had some good things to say about it.
    "How beautiful Natactone dextro is smelling Tonka.....the reason why this chemical is mostly used in flavors it is a mystery I do not understand since it is better than its racemic counterpart Koumalactone.... I am using it in perfumery and the natural Tonka, Flouve, Melilot effects imparted by it are unique! It is 10 times stronger than coumarin and by far, as I smell it, the best Tonka chemicals in the world...better than Tonkalactone. Accords of it with Spirolide are fantastic and Spirolide is much better than methyl laitone, Ethyl laitone and Laitone...much, much better creating wonders with Tuberolide, Aprifloren and Nectalactone with a twist of Quincester! How Lovely is our profession!"

    (In case anyone here is a bit confused, standard dihydro mint lactone just contains a mix of racemers, which includes Koumalactone as one of them)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    I'm using up to 5% of Piconia in my oud accords but I'm not quite convinced it's needed there.
    Same about Symroxane. To me it smells on its own very similar to low grade oud oils, peppery (with alpha - Damascone aspect and somehow in the direction of Cantharellus flavour) and faintly animalic fruity, but it's also very mild.
    I'd stick to either Cashmeran or Trimofix and tweak it with other woody ambers, like Kohinool, for desired effects. I attempted to combine the two but they didn't appear to synergise.
    Of the cedarwood materials Vertofix Cœur seems a great match.

  9. #9

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    You're actually pretty close on some of the ingredients Philip Kraft selected for his "Oudini" oud accord on the Scent and Chemistry FB page. Woody, fruity notes, etc. He also uses cashmeran/kephalis and a large amount of Civettone which I personally don't want to pay for lol.
    Very interesting, thank you!

    I was also glad to see someone using civetone in high quantity (7%.) Not because I want to pay for that much, but because I was wondering if I was "off" in feeling it could be run quite high just fine, when any demo formula I could find used amounts only such as 0.3%.

    That said, it's no pricier than various floral absolutes, or mediocre sandalwoods, and is cheaper than neroli so it's not really that bad.

  10. #10

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    Trimofix O (Fixamber), or if not available, Tabanone, or Symroxane
    Forgive me, but why? Tabanone is nothing like Trimofix, and nor is Symroxane? This is a bit like suggesting that I fill my car with olive oil if petrol isn't available. A better suggestion here might be Vertofix Coeur, Cedryl acetate, etc.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    """geco - ...and a very little touch of birch tar....
    parker25mv - I'm not sure about that.That's some very potent stuff. I presume you're talking about wanting a little darkness and smokiness?"""

    The best oud i've ever smelled, have a little touch of smoke, birch similar but more light...

    """""parker25mv - I think the Cypriol (Nagarmotha) would help provide most of that effect, and maybe a touch of Myrrh might add some more darkness (though at the risk of sending the fragrance off in a slightly different direction, though still exquisite).""""

    I'm agree with little touch of nagarmotha (have some molecules constituents of real oud...) and ,expecially, with myrrh, a wonderful ingredient for mystical deepness....

  12. #12

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    I've not tested 2,6 xylenol yet only smelt it from the bottle, but it smells like a smokier version of isobutyl quinolone. It may be useful in adding a hint of smokiness to the oud accord. I understand its a powerful material so I may have to dilute it first to understand it better but just thought I would share!

  13. #13

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by perfumum View Post
    Forgive me, but why? Tabanone is nothing like Trimofix, and nor is Symroxane? This is a bit like suggesting that I fill my car with olive oil if petrol isn't available.
    That's true of course, they smell very different, but they all have a very similar type of effect, in this category of materials.

    Quote Originally Posted by perfumum View Post
    A better suggestion here might be Vertofix Coeur, Cedryl acetate, etc.
    I don't think Cedryl acetate has the same effect. Though I do have to say, I suspect Cedramber might be in an ingredient in some fake oud fragrances from what I've smelled, or an oud enhancer; and Amboryl acetate is a wonderful material, in my opinion (sort of off-topic here).

    Vertofix Coeur may or may not be a good substitute, I don't know, I've never smelled it.
    The smell description on Good Scents mentions cistus, which is very intriguing.

  14. #14

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Very interesting suggestions. I would also try some tobacarol, isomohanol, olibanol and norlimbanol. For the fruitier ones like Burmese maybe something peachy? The Indian oud is a bit smoky, earthy and very animalic. Not sure what to use for the animalic notes, they are tricky. Lactoscatole? Some musk like globanone perhaps. A small amount of terrasol for earthiness.

  15. #15

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by birdie View Post
    Very interesting suggestions. I would also try some tobacarol, isomohanol, olibanol and norlimbanol. For the fruitier ones like Burmese maybe something peachy? The Indian oud is a bit smoky, earthy and very animalic. Not sure what to use for the animalic notes, they are tricky. Lactoscatole? Some musk like globanone perhaps. A small amount of terrasol for earthiness.
    Try Ambrarome or grisambrene for a more direct animalic note. Try something like Animalis for a more abstract animalic/dirty note.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    I've not tested 2,6 xylenol yet only smelt it from the bottle, but it smells like a smokier version of isobutyl quinolone. It may be useful in adding a hint of smokiness to the oud accord. I understand its a powerful material so I may have to dilute it first to understand it better but just thought I would share!
    2,6 - Xylenol with its medicinal quality is more suitable for simple oud accords than isobutyl quinoline whose herbal character is very hard to conceal. Though good castoreum replacers seem to conceal vegetable nuances in isobutyl quinoline just fine.

  17. #17

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    That's true of course, they smell very different, but they all have a very similar type of effect, in this category of materials.
    Sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Tabanon is an intensely powerful, almost caramelized acorn/nut tobacco note. Symroxane is a woody-herbal complex with vetiver and other nuances. They do not give similar effects at all. I know this is becoming a classic question asked of you, but have you smelled either or are you basing your opinions on TGSC descriptions they share?

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    I don't think Cedryl acetate has the same effect.
    Did you test it? I forgot about amboryl acetate, it would be a good alternative to trimofix, but trimofix really does have special effects on blends which have been verified experimentally (not by me) whereas who knows whether amboryl acetate does.

  18. #18

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    I've not tested 2,6 xylenol yet only smelt it from the bottle, but it smells like a smokier version of isobutyl quinolone. It may be useful in adding a hint of smokiness to the oud accord. I understand its a powerful material so I may have to dilute it first to understand it better but just thought I would share!
    I wouldn't say smoky at all, nor like Isobutyl Quinoline. The Xylenols are most typically described as "phenolic" and "medicinal". That said, 2,6 and/or 2,4 xylenol (and 2,5 if you want bacon) tend to feature in a realistic oud accord.

  19. #19

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Quote Originally Posted by perfumum View Post
    I wouldn't say smoky at all, nor like Isobutyl Quinoline. The Xylenols are most typically described as "phenolic" and "medicinal". That said, 2,6 and/or 2,4 xylenol (and 2,5 if you want bacon) tend to feature in a realistic oud accord.
    Thanks for the correction. I havent yet used this material. Theres also not much information available on it. Do you have any idea about its substantivity? And whether it appears in the top notes or does it mostly affect the dry down?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    2,6 - Xylenol makes itself apparent instantly.
    So far I always used it together with Safranal; my last oud accord attempt had
    0,007% Safranal and 0,024% 2,6 - xylenol which felt overdosed and quite lasting.
    I've just put 2,6-X on a blotter at 1% and will tell you how long it lasts.

    Update: after 4 hours strong, after 8 hours faint, after 16 hours virtually gone. This suggests very low detection threshold but fairly high volatility. Safranal might last a little longer and addition of Suederal LT will likely fix 2,6-X in a blend.
    Last edited by xii; 9th October 2019 at 08:35 AM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Thank you for your valuable input Xii. That's very useful information. Much appreciated. I have cuir base (firmenich) I'm guessing that will fix it too?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: idea for mock oud accord

    Suederal LT, though a complex mixture, is a raw material for perfumery rather than a carefully composed base. It provides an excellent background for other leather materials. Leather bases tend to have a floral nuance (like Violettyne) which might be difficult to incorporate in an oud accord.

    By the way, has anyone tried Jatamansi in oud accords?




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