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  1. #1
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    Default Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    I'm working on a fragrance for a friend who wants an amber incense feel with bergamot opening. I achieved that, and then thought Aldehyde C-12 MNA (from PA) would be a good addition -- used trace amount at 10% dilution.

    Fragrance has been maturing for over a week and I'm getting an unpleasant 'old bar of soap' waxy nuance that's been present since adding the C-12 mna.

    I know aldehydes take time to settle in, but I'm wondering if the soapy waxy smell is normal -- and/or is an overwhelming characteristic of C-12 mna, one that will continue to overshadow the dry, amber nuance it's supposed to evoke?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    How much did you use in the final concentrate? I have never gone above .04% of C-12 in the final concentrate. It would be easier to work with C-12 and most aldehydes if you diluted to 1%.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    concentrates with aldehydes need way more time than one week for maturation. i recommend at least one month before evaluating. for final maturation 2-3 months, depending on your other ingredients.

    if its still overpowering after that time, i usually do a reformulation. if you wanna 'fix' the initial blend (in case you don't want to wast materials or other reasons...), i recommend adding benzyl salicylate or benzyl benzoate.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Can you just remix without it? If trace is bothering you in there, it may not belong at all. Then put some ratio of the first mix in with some part of second mix in a third container and let all 3 age.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Agree w the 1% dilution (for all aldehydes, in ethyl alcohol so they will already "mature") and yes, 0.04% in concentrate is enough to get a noticeable effect. I've used it at 0.02% for just a touch of sparkle. C12MNA is very powerful. You probably dosed along 0.1%. I'd start over.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm going to start over; remix one without the c-12 -- another with trace at 1% dilution -- and will let the current one sit for a few months and see how it smells then.

  7. #7
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    If you have an amine in the formula, then the C12 will be making a schiffs base and that takes time - the smell you smell right now is not the smell you'll smell once its complete!!

    I made my own neroli about a year ago and after the usual 2 weeks wait, it smelled like I should give up and find a new hobby. A year later (I've been busy and forgot to keep checking this one after I hid it in a pile of shitty smelling mixes) I had a sniff and it's absolutely amazing, I'd go as far as to say its as good as the commercial neroli synthetics I've since sniffed. It certainly won't take a year, it just happens that in this case I had a year in between sniffs.

    Anyway, c12 is quite a long lasting chemical, definitely not a top, so if you're dose is a few % then it may just be far too much for the veracity of other components if they are not strong enough to compete.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    ..... after the usual 2 weeks wait, it smelled like I should give up and find a new hobby.
    I feel like that most of the time. Lol!

    But this morning I gave the original a sniff -- and the soapy/waxy smell is greatly diminished. There is hope. Smells pretty great actually. Will be interesting to see what happens as time marches on.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    I feel like that most of the time. Lol!

    But this morning I gave the original a sniff -- and the soapy/waxy smell is greatly diminished. There is hope. Smells pretty great actually. Will be interesting to see what happens as time marches on.
    Waiting a few months is a little overkill to me. It sort of like the law of diminishing returns... the greatest change is going to occur over 24-72 hours. The rest is just fine smoothing IMO. There are certain things like Cedar Atlas and other woods that will creep in and out over time though. Sneaky. One week its barely there and then BAM its back.

    Like I said earlier about diluting aldehydes; put them in ethanol. Eventually they will already be oxidized/acetalized (and stabilized) and you won't have to wait long for them to settle in your blend.
    Last edited by editorinscent; 1st August 2019 at 03:10 PM.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    Waiting a few months is a little overkill to me. It sort of like the law of diminishing returns... the greatest change is going to occur over 24-72 hours. The rest is just fine smoothing IMO. There are certain things like Cedar Atlas and other woods that will creep in and out over time though. Sneaky. One week its barely there and then BAM its back.

    Like I said earlier about diluting aldehydes; put them in ethanol. Eventually they will already be oxidized (and stabilized) and you won't have to wait long for them to settle in your blend.
    Thank you for ^^^^

    I now have 1% dilutions of all aldehydes and will let them mature for a while.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    Thank you for ^^^^

    I now have 1% dilutions of all aldehydes and will let them mature for a while.
    No problem! Just make sure they're in tightly closed containers, otherwise the alcohol will evaporate over time.


  12. #12

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by runstile View Post
    Agree w the 1% dilution (for all aldehydes, in ethyl alcohol so they will already "mature") and yes, 0.04% in concentrate is enough to get a noticeable effect. I've used it at 0.02% for just a touch of sparkle. C12MNA is very powerful. You probably dosed along 0.1%. I'd start over.
    The original Chanel No.5 had some 1% of total aldehyes, with Laruic, being considered generally the most soapy, dosed the highest. MNA was somewhere close to 0.2%, and neither of them stick out. It depends what other materials were used.
    Last edited by George Tedder; 3rd August 2019 at 12:36 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by pavomi View Post
    concentrates with aldehydes need way more time than one week for maturation. i recommend at least one month before evaluating. for final maturation 2-3 months, depending on your other ingredients.

    if its still overpowering after that time, i usually do a reformulation. if you wanna 'fix' the initial blend (in case you don't want to wast materials or other reasons...), i recommend adding benzyl salicylate or benzyl benzoate.
    Why? What would that do?

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  14. #14

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    Why? What would that do?

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

    those materials can help taming aldehydes, to a certain degree...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    Why? What would that do?

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    SO many people on here advocate for letting the perfume sit for months before evaluation. I have always found this silly. With extremely powerful materials (think sulfur chemicals) sometimes a few days can help. But really not more than this is needed. One month is really just superfluous.

    In the industry, generally it is one day. Sometimes a weekend. Oftentimes samples are requested one morning to be evaluated the very same afternoon. No large house has time to wait one month -- and I would guess there are diminishing returns with each extra day.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Hi, had THE SAME problem with C12 MNA, as described here http://www.basenotes.net/threads/467...-to-the-rescue
    Adding a tiny drop of BB, as pavomi said, solved it quickly (24 hours). Check this, but be careful. Overdosing BB can kill anything. ;-)

  17. #17

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by George Tedder View Post
    SO many people on here advocate for letting the perfume sit for months before evaluation. I have always found this silly. With extremely powerful materials (think sulfur chemicals) sometimes a few days can help. But really not more than this is needed. One month is really just superfluous.

    In the industry, generally it is one day. Sometimes a weekend. Oftentimes samples are requested one morning to be evaluated the very same afternoon. No large house has time to wait one month -- and I would guess there are diminishing returns with each extra day.
    I have a very different opinion. I have many examples of blends that matured from being to harsh into nice, smooth ones. And frankly I think all blends benefit from maturation. Ellena matured his one week before addition of alcohol and at least six weeks after. Couldn't care less what the big houses do - they're mostly about making profit.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by birdie View Post
    I have a very different opinion. I have many examples of blends that matured from being to harsh into nice, smooth ones. And frankly I think all blends benefit from maturation. Ellena matured his one week before addition of alcohol and at least six weeks after. Couldn't care less what the big houses do - they're mostly about making profit.
    I have quite the opposite opinion. Feel it hardly makes a difference. One day, or two; max. Don’t notice much after that.

    It has nothing to do with profits. I am simply saying it’s not what most professionals do. If it made a substantial difference; they would do it. People may “feel” it makes a difference. But that isn’t data. As I said, after a few days, there will be diminishing returns.

    Perhaps I’m wrong, but the claim one month makes a substantial difference compared with one weekend is rather bold. It would require more than a feeling to demonstrate its validity.

  19. #19
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Its fairly reasonable to say that the process of solvation is dependant upon time, energy input and the intermolecular forces. The length of time will obviously vary depending upon the proportions and specific chemicals used (different levels of polarity etc). A fully homogeneous solution ( = every "drop" of the final solution is the same) will eventually be reached once an equilibrium state is achieved.

    I don't agree with the diminishing returns statement from a perfumery perspective (but in terms of rate or mass/vol etc I've no doubt you are correct for a constant external energy condition) - some of the more complex chains will take greater amounts of energy and time to form the homogeneous solution.

    Ignoring lab testing, smell it regularly, when the smell stops changing or the duration of scent is consistent from drop to drop is a pretty good indicator. I am so appalling bad at keeping sniff records of things I've made over time, I can't provide much quantification - but to assume one rule fits all is wrong.

    I've never tried a mixer and the dogs tails are too inconsistent as a mixing device - anyone got some info on with/without a steady mixer ?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    Its fairly reasonable to say that the process of solvation is dependant upon time, energy input and the intermolecular forces. The length of time will obviously vary depending upon the proportions and specific chemicals used (different levels of polarity etc).
    Of course. In commercial labs things are mixed very, very thoroughly. But people here are talking about waiting literally months before evaluation. And this is what I am saying is really never done.

    I have heard of, during commercial production, certain ingredients being aged (citrus in particular), to assure consistent quality standards from batch to batch. But you have to remember we are making perfume. Really the whole goal is for the things we add into the bottle to not react. Otherwise the products that we have will smell different and, unless we have a very through understanding of how these reactions are taking place, the product is not reproducible. This is why BHT and UV filters are so commonly added to fragrances.

    Basically make a trial. Mix or shake thoroughly. Let sit a day or two. Maybe a weekend. This is sufficient time, then, to conduct a proper evaluation.

  21. #21
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    and someone else has just wisely bumped this old thread, which goes into far much more detail on the type of reactions that can take place.

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/431...ing-maceration
    As soon as you have your mix together and let it sit, chemical reactions start going on. These are mostly reversible equilibrium reactions ⇌, which are concentration dependent. Depending on your mix, you can get the following type of reactions:

    Transesterifications:
    Ester_11 + Water ⇌ Alcohol_1 + Acid_1
    Ester_22 + Water ⇌ Alcohol_2 + Acid_2
    Alcohol_1 + Acid_2 ⇌ Ester_12 + Water
    Alcohol_2 + Acid_1 ⇌ Ester_21 + Water
    but also:
    Ethanol + Acid_1 ⇌ Ester_e1 + Water
    Ethanol + Acid_2 ⇌ Ester_e2 + Water
    So your esters will mix up chemically eventually. I've always been guessing that this is part of the process that makes a scent "rounder", as they say.

    There are also (hemi-)acetalisations:
    Aldehyde + Ethanol ⇌ Hemiacetal
    Ketone + Ethanol ⇌ Hemiacetal
    and subsequently
    Hemiacetal + Ethanol ⇌ Acetal + Water
    or sometimes intramolecularly:
    Hemiacetal ⇌ Acetal + Water
    Now hemiacetals will decay to ethanol and aldehyde or ketone on skin, whereas the process with the acetals is much slower. This is why some aldehydes are available as acetals. They smell often very similar to the aldehyde, but a bit sharper (to my nose at least).

    As a third important example, there is the formation of imines, aka Schiff Bases or Schiff's Bases:
    Aldehyde + Amine ⇌ Imine + Water
    could also work for ketones
    Aldehyde + Ketone ⇌ Imine + Water
    Typically, the amine is methyl anthranilate (if there is some in the mix at all), it is one of the very few compounds that have contain -NH₂ group. The Imines also decay on skin. But the process is slow, so your evaporation rate is slowed down. And as always: imines of methyl anthranilate are very often strongly coloured, so if a perfume goes dark during maceration, it is because of the formation of those imines.

    These processes go on, until "equilibrium is reached", i.e. the concentrations of all the reaction participants corresponds to how fast the corresponding reactions are. But attention: at equilibrium, the proportions will stay the same, but the reactions will still be going on! For the transesterification I made a calculated estimation once that the equilibrium should be reached in about three months.
    Still, it is not a linear process, rather an exponential one: after one month, equilibrium could be reached at an extent of 66% (rather than 33%).

    So the truth is, that whether you use naturals or synthetics, the constituents of a perfume actually are reactive and there will be chemical reactions going on. Well within the perfume, but also outside the bottle, also on and with skin. (The question is h
    ow much this affects the individual.)

  22. #22

    Default Re: Problem with aldehyde C-12 MNA

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    and someone else has just wisely bumped this old thread, which goes into far much more detail on the type of reactions that can take place.

    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/431...ing-maceration
    As soon as you have your mix together and let it sit, chemical reactions start going on. These are mostly reversible equilibrium reactions ⇌, which are concentration dependent. Depending on your mix, you can get the following type of reactions:

    Transesterifications:
    Ester_11 + Water ⇌ Alcohol_1 + Acid_1
    Ester_22 + Water ⇌ Alcohol_2 + Acid_2
    Alcohol_1 + Acid_2 ⇌ Ester_12 + Water
    Alcohol_2 + Acid_1 ⇌ Ester_21 + Water
    but also:
    Ethanol + Acid_1 ⇌ Ester_e1 + Water
    Ethanol + Acid_2 ⇌ Ester_e2 + Water
    So your esters will mix up chemically eventually. I've always been guessing that this is part of the process that makes a scent "rounder", as they say.

    There are also (hemi-)acetalisations:
    Aldehyde + Ethanol ⇌ Hemiacetal
    Ketone + Ethanol ⇌ Hemiacetal
    and subsequently
    Hemiacetal + Ethanol ⇌ Acetal + Water
    or sometimes intramolecularly:
    Hemiacetal ⇌ Acetal + Water
    Now hemiacetals will decay to ethanol and aldehyde or ketone on skin, whereas the process with the acetals is much slower. This is why some aldehydes are available as acetals. They smell often very similar to the aldehyde, but a bit sharper (to my nose at least).

    As a third important example, there is the formation of imines, aka Schiff Bases or Schiff's Bases:
    Aldehyde + Amine ⇌ Imine + Water
    could also work for ketones
    Aldehyde + Ketone ⇌ Imine + Water
    Typically, the amine is methyl anthranilate (if there is some in the mix at all), it is one of the very few compounds that have contain -NH₂ group. The Imines also decay on skin. But the process is slow, so your evaporation rate is slowed down. And as always: imines of methyl anthranilate are very often strongly coloured, so if a perfume goes dark during maceration, it is because of the formation of those imines.

    These processes go on, until "equilibrium is reached", i.e. the concentrations of all the reaction participants corresponds to how fast the corresponding reactions are. But attention: at equilibrium, the proportions will stay the same, but the reactions will still be going on! For the transesterification I made a calculated estimation once that the equilibrium should be reached in about three months.
    Still, it is not a linear process, rather an exponential one: after one month, equilibrium could be reached at an extent of 66% (rather than 33%).

    So the truth is, that whether you use naturals or synthetics, the constituents of a perfume actually are reactive and there will be chemical reactions going on. Well within the perfume, but also outside the bottle, also on and with skin. (The question is h
    ow much this affects the individual.)
    This is all true; for the most part. For me the acétals often smell less strong. Or rather I’m basing that off the few I’ve smelled. But again, this is exactly what one doesn’t want to have happen with a perfume. And much care is taken in professional perfumery to minimize these happenings.




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