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  1. #1
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    Default Copycats... Again >:(

    When will people ever learn that copying a currently existing perfume is 100% stealing someone else's artwork? If you do it for yourself on this forum/elsewhere using a gcms or other sources, whatever. You do you. I'm not going to try and talk you out of it.
    Just minutes ago, I screenshotted yet another bullshit perfume company via an Instagram ad. "Alt Fragrances" copies the work of many great perfumers, including Creed and other top of the line names, and sells them for cheaper. Sure, if they're being sold for cheaper, they won't be as nice (they likely aren't even Perfumers there) due to the lack of skill and lack of top notch ingredients. But that's away from the point. Copying someone else's work, someone else's art, and reselling it, is a crime!!! And it should be a crime for perfume, too!

    Rant over

    Here's a photo. The caption, as well as the comments, show that the company holds pride in copying others artwork.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
    Cheers, Happy Perfuming!
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Same garbage bottles as DUA, same claims of "high quality at fraction of price". They'll never learn so long as fools keep buying.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Yeh there’s a company called copycat fragrances who sell ‘inspired’ fragrances. Creed, Tom Ford, Chanel etc are all on there. They’re getting away with it because they’re saying inspired by. I think the days are over of having niche fragrances. Sooner or later everyone will have smelled these unknown scents.

    Where I’m from in the Uk nearly Everyman and his dog owns a fake or copy version of Aventus. It’s that bad now people who clearly don’t own Aventus smell like they do and claim they’re wearing it when it’s blatantly a copy.

    I’ve actually went off Aventus now. I was in a nightclub toilet and around 5 lads were gathered around the freshen up man, and one lad washing his hands next to me said ‘it’s fake that, I’m wearing the real creed’ so I said aah what one you got? He replied with ‘eeer.... that one...’ clearly thought Creed was the fragrance not the house and 99% wearing a fake.

    I’m glad I’ve found my layering scent now what no one will have smelled. But if you have them layer spice and wood with sublime Vanille, no one will have it and you smell like a trillion dollars

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    I agree with your rant. I am averse to buying anything counterfeit, whether it is clothing or fragrances, etc. I say: buy what you can afford!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMalteseTweed View Post
    Yeh there’s a company called copycat fragrances who sell ‘inspired’ fragrances. Creed, Tom Ford, Chanel etc are all on there. They’re getting away with it because they’re saying inspired by. I think the days are over of having niche fragrances. Sooner or later everyone will have smelled these unknown scents.

    Where I’m from in the Uk nearly Everyman and his dog owns a fake or copy version of Aventus. It’s that bad now people who clearly don’t own Aventus smell like they do and claim they’re wearing it when it’s blatantly a copy.

    I’ve actually went off Aventus now. I was in a nightclub toilet and around 5 lads were gathered around the freshen up man, and one lad washing his hands next to me said ‘it’s fake that, I’m wearing the real creed’ so I said aah what one you got? He replied with ‘eeer.... that one...’ clearly thought Creed was the fragrance not the house and 99% wearing a fake.

    I’m glad I’ve found my layering scent now what no one will have smelled. But if you have them layer spice and wood with sublime Vanille, no one will have it and you smell like a trillion dollars
    Aventus is not niche so no need to worry about everyone smelling "unknown scents". The entire purpose of niche is fragrances that *won't* appeal to everyone, whereas Aventus is a fragrance that tries to appeal to everyone.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by CutSmut View Post
    Aventus is not niche so no need to worry about everyone smelling "unknown scents". The entire purpose of niche is fragrances that *won't* appeal to everyone, whereas Aventus is a fragrance that tries to appeal to everyone.
    The point isn't about whether it's niche or not, or how appealing it is. The point is that you're stealing someone else's work. Whether they consider that perfume their artwork or not is up to them, but all of it is work nonetheless.

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    Will

  7. #7
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    A Chinese proverb says, "The biggest compliment one can make to a competitor is to copy his success." - And the bigger the profit margin, the more compliments it will get.

    It is the same problem about piracy as in other areas like music. Are there not any possibilities for encryption? F.e. materials with similar properties, which make gc/ms difficult.
    Last edited by Ivor Joedy; 7th August 2019 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #8
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    I found a nail salon that was selling copycat perfumes, £6 for 30 ml, £12.50 for 100ml; plus the cost of the bottle which they can refill for you.

    So I went in to see how it worked and the lady explained - she buys in bulk from eastern europe at 10kg per fragrance, then when she sells locally to customers in her nail shop, its a very nice display and she gives you a paper copy of the ingredients and other legals when you buy some and writes the name of the perfume on a sticky label and puts it onto the bottle.

    The fragrances smell very, very similar to their "inspirations" and I have no doubt its very easy to convince someone they are near perfect copies.. except for a noticeably high dose of iso-e in most of them and dhmc or ambermax/ambroxan types in the male colognes. So we bought 6 small bottles and after a week of testing its fair to say that they are long lasting and quite impressive.

    I do wonder though, if I didnt know they were fakes and did a blind test - would I know it was a fake ? If I didnt know the original perfume, there would be very little to suggest it was a copycat, the overdoses would just make me think it was a niche.

    If you know the original perfume, then you'll stop it as a fake on the sniff of the cap and definitely the first spray.

    In another indoor shopping mall, there was a concession stand selling copycats. You looked up a list, then the mixed bottle A with B, and a bit of C and hey presto, thats your perfume. Those copycats were complete rubbish and something like £50 for 10ml. The concession stand disappeared after a month.

    I despise the copycat industry, any sort of theft where people profit brazenly off the hard work of others - the irony of contributing £40 to it is not lost on me, but yes the copycats and people who profit of them should be stung with nettles and pissed on by jellyfish.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    I found a nail salon that was selling copycat perfumes, £6 for 30 ml, £12.50 for 100ml; plus the cost of the bottle which they can refill for you.

    So I went in to see how it worked and the lady explained - she buys in bulk from eastern europe at 10kg per fragrance, then when she sells locally to customers in her nail shop, its a very nice display and she gives you a paper copy of the ingredients and other legals when you buy some and writes the name of the perfume on a sticky label and puts it onto the bottle.

    The fragrances smell very, very similar to their "inspirations" and I have no doubt its very easy to convince someone they are near perfect copies.. except for a noticeably high dose of iso-e in most of them and dhmc or ambermax/ambroxan types in the male colognes. So we bought 6 small bottles and after a week of testing its fair to say that they are long lasting and quite impressive.
    This kind of suggests that there are a couple of bulk manufacturers who sell the 'inspired fragrances' as white label goods to any distributor that wants to sell them with their own branding.

    Copycat fragrances aren't unheard of in continental Europe and they're only starting to make a way into the UK from what I noticed. I have seen this sort of thing over 10 years ago in Eastern Europe and the Iberian Peninsula. I presume they must be quite popular in developing countries where the average income doesn't allow a person to buy the real thing without taking a big hit (we're talking about 20% of your monthly income for a bottle of mainstream designer perfume here).

    It's a bit disconcerting that they are getting more popular in the higher income countries though, where a bottle of an authentic, branded perfume isn't out of reach even if you're on minimum wage.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    It is theft in a way isn’t it. Musicians get stung these days for copying lyrics, notes etc from other songs without permission. Isn’t it about time this changed with fragrances?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Nastka View Post
    This kind of suggests that there are a couple of bulk manufacturers who sell the 'inspired fragrances' as white label goods to any distributor that wants to sell them with their own branding.
    There's a company based in NY that does exactly that ^^^. They will design custom bottles and labels for you -- your own brand -- they will fill the bottles in bulk with whatever 'inspired' scent you desire (from Chanel #5 to Fierce) and will deliver boxes of the stuff right to your door ready to be sold as your own private label -- comes complete with cardboard displays. Or they can design a custom fragrance for you -- or make one to your specs.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Didn't France's high court decide that you can't copyright a smell? I know that's just one country but, hell, this is arguably the perfume capital of the world...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Con-li you are absolutely correct. There was also a case with a Dutch court:

    https://www.patentbaristas.com/archi...ht-in-perfume/

    I understand where you guys are coming from. The genius shown in some of these perfumes and the hours of work that are put in can just be copied by someone. But in the same way a Michelin star chef who designs a whole new menu with a set of innovative dishes using innovative combinations of spices and ingredients - they cannot protect their creations.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Why are some of the ingredients kept secret (named under the banner of "parfum") but others explicitly named on the label?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Under ifra guidance and the EU cosmetics directive substances that are restricted in use or are irritants have to be explicitly named in the list of ingredients. Any other substances can be placed under the umbrella of "parfum"

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Are there not any possibilities for encryption?.
    yes, high impact materials in trace amounts and captives.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Even if the composition of the fragrance could be copyrighted, one could change it ever so slightly so that the replicated scent itself is indistinguishable.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by jsparla View Post
    yes, high impact materials in trace amounts and captives.
    Im assuming that using a lot of naturals will add to the "encryption" being less "pure" materials than synthetics?

  19. #19
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    Im assuming that using a lot of naturals will add to the "encryption" being less "pure" materials than synthetics?
    I am in doubt, I guess naturals can be easily identified.

    But even a photograph is copyrighted today. So there is no other way as to establish a body that decides whether a new perfume contains a reasonable amount of innovation and so is worth to be copyrighted for a certain number of years. This would allow companies to comply with consumer demand for disclosure of all components. And others producing something similar would have to pay some licenses.

    But I wonder what criteria: the materials and their proportions (and how exact) or the smell? What if someone produces the same smell with chemically different substances and proportions? or when somebody uses very similar materials but creates a different smell?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    I think it will be difficult to copyright a perfume... as you are saying with small adjustments in materials and proportions you have a different product. Might smell very similar but still different.

    In my opinion It will make more sense to tm & (c) a brand ... Looking to Andy Tauer (Witch i think might be close to a text book example of niche brand) it's the whole wrapping that makes the kicks. The packing, the personalized cards, the genuine personal touch of the whole thing together with the scent. Copying that for a copycat would be impossible to get away with.

    Pricing is also an issue i guess. It will make more sense to copy a high end label witch is highly priced with a large target group rather than a niche producer with a much smaller customer base.

    Very enthusiastic i once showed Byredos 1996 to a friend of mine ... To me that perfume is slightly raw, animalistic, erotic, summery and so on.... my buddy fringes, looks at me and claims it smells like his boat paint... That's how difficult i think it would be to copyright a perfume.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    I think it will be difficult to copyright a perfume... as you are saying with small adjustments in materials and proportions you have a different product. Might smell very similar but still different.

    In my opinion It will make more sense to tm & (c) a brand ... Looking to Andy Tauer (Witch i think might be close to a text book example of niche brand) it's the whole wrapping that makes the kicks. The packing, the personalized cards, the genuine personal touch of the whole thing together with the scent. Copying that for a copycat would be impossible to get away with.

    Pricing is also an issue i guess. It will make more sense to copy a high end label witch is highly priced with a large target group rather than a niche producer with a much smaller customer base.

    Very enthusiastic i once showed Byredos 1996 to a friend of mine ... To me that perfume is slightly raw, animalistic, erotic, summery and so on.... my buddy fringes, looks at me and claims it smells like his boat paint... That's how difficult i think it would be to copyright a perfume.
    I agree with this, you can't copy a fragrance 100% unless you have the exact same ingredients and exact same formula. I have yet to come across a clone that is 100% the same as the original, usually, they are of poor quality as well. I don't think that the analogy with photography and other products is the same here. Fragrance is more like cookery, take Beef Stroganoff, for example, there was someone who invented it but you will never get two that are exactly the same. Now, if someone was creating fake Creed bottles and filling them up with Poseidon's Elixir 11z or something and passing it off as Creed Aventus, that would be a huge problem.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    I do wonder though, if I didnt know they were fakes and did a blind test - would I know it was a fake ?
    Most likely you would have a suspicion, but it wouldn't be enough to know for certain, with most of them.

    It also really depends on the type of fragrance, which will affect how easy it is to copy.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Con-Li View Post
    Why are some of the ingredients kept secret (named under the banner of "parfum") but others explicitly named on the label?
    Because the listed ingredients are the standard blenders, solvents... What makes the scent (the oils) is all contained under the umbrella "parfum".

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post

    I do wonder though, if I didnt know they were fakes and did a blind test - would I know it was a fake ?
    One foot away, probably not. And even by sticking the nose on the skin, many buyers don;t even know they are wearing fake, because nowadays countefeiters tend to buy real empty bottles and boxes, and refill them with clones....

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by benjwi02 View Post
    When will people ever learn that copying a currently existing perfume is 100% stealing someone else's artwork?
    In order to steal an artwork, one must copy the design, logo, or the copyrighted artwork. Unfortunately, like for food recipes, fragrance formula are not legally defined as artwork and thus cannot be patented or protected by copyrights. There have been several legal cases already all over the world, and the plaintiffs always lost.
    That said, the logo of the perfume houses, as well as the bottle and package designs are patent protected.
    That's why, fragrance companies treat their formulas as trade secrets, and the big fragrance houses (Givaudan, IFF...) never reveal their formulas, not even to their customers. The formulas are owned by these companies, and the customers (perfume and designer houses) pay for the fragrance concentrates (master mix) that these companies produce.
    In some rare cases, the perfume houses directly produce their concentrates and own their formulas (Chanel, Creed, indie houses...).

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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    Im assuming that using a lot of naturals will add to the "encryption" being less "pure" materials than synthetics?
    On the contrary, running a GC/MS on the mixture will reveal all the individual aroma molecules. Doing a reversed lookup on the database from essential oil university, using a spreadsheet that takes in account the by them specified ratios of aroma chemicals that make up an essential oil, will give you the smoking guns. ;-)
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  27. #27

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Über Plagiate sollte man sich nicht ärgern. Sie sind wahrscheinlich die aufrichtigsten aller Komplimente. Theodor Fontane (1819-1898, dem würde auch Klaus-Theodor zu Guttenberg zustimmen. )

    „Erlaubt ist, was gefällt!“, ließ Goethe seinen Torquato Tasso sagen und die Prinzessin antwortete: „Erlaubt ist, was sich ziemt.“

    Vielleicht kann das jemand einwandfrei ins Englische übersetzen.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by giftmischer View Post
    Über Plagiate sollte man sich nicht ärgern. Sie sind wahrscheinlich die aufrichtigsten aller Komplimente. Theodor Fontane (1819-1898, dem würde auch Klaus-Theodor zu Guttenberg zustimmen. )

    „Erlaubt ist, was gefällt!“, ließ Goethe seinen Torquato Tasso sagen und die Prinzessin antwortete: „Erlaubt ist, was sich ziemt.“

    Vielleicht kann das jemand einwandfrei ins Englische übersetzen.
    You are welcome, :
    Plagiarism should not be annoying. It is probably the most sincere of all compliments. Theodor Fontane (1819-1898, Klaus-Theodor zu Guttenberg would agree with that)
    "Permission is what pleases!", Goethe had his Torquato Tasso say and the princess replied: "It is permissible, what befits."

    Personal note: i totally disagree. This is by example the Chinese kind of thinking regarding patents and counterfeiting.
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  29. #29

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Chinese kind of thinking with German label? https://eclat.de/

  30. #30

    Default Re: Copycats... Again >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by jsparla View Post
    On the contrary, running a GC/MS on the mixture will reveal all the individual aroma molecules. Doing a reversed lookup on the database from essential oil university, using a spreadsheet that takes in account the by them specified ratios of aroma chemicals that make up an essential oil, will give you the smoking guns. ;-)
    Yes absolutely, but my thinking was that it will be harder (More costly) to replicate a fragrance that is full of naturals since the naturals will be more "complex" materials compared to synthetic materials?

    It could maybe be compared to Chopin played on a keyboard vs Steinway... The keyboard will lack the depth, warmth, nuance and so on that the Steinway carries.

    Am i way off?
    Last edited by Aldara; 16th August 2019 at 08:28 PM. Reason: adding text




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