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  1. #31

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I disagree.
    Why should any artist limit their options?
    Should`t the creative person decide for themselves if they like, or dislike any supplier?

    I have actually had good luck with perfumers world.
    And I think Stephan Dowthwaite has helped 10`s of thousands of people.
    Perfumers world software and accord making options are actually very helpful for new perfumers.

    This is not just my opinion.
    Artists know the value of experimentation, and they place great value on play, they record their thoughts and ideas about the world.
    And In their books, Arcadi Biox Camps, Mandy Aftel, Chandler Burr, Lucas Turin, Jean Claude Ellena and more.

    All these great artists place experimentation above all else.
    So, in the spirit of creativity I recommend all young perfumers try out as many suppliers as they like.




    Who in the world am I, or you to tell them what they should, or should not do?
    You keep talking about experimentation but then you make random posts about how the material from perfumers world is the same as something made by Firmenich. Have you tried the two materials? Have you bought jasmine fluorescence and Jasmine 231 and compared it?

    You keep making arbitrary statements and you state them as fact. Contrary to what you claim in other posts where you claim you are just a beginner and stating a beginners opinion like others on here. You have made a lot of far fetched claims, I remember a post of yours where you claimed a particular sandalwood from a supplier was great while claiming you have never smelt real sandalwood. How can you know what good smells like if you have never really smelt it? And you did the same else where claiming you can interchange two items because they had leather in their notes on TGSC. That is like claiming you can interchange IBQ with Cypriol in a formula because they both have leather in their notes. And you are doing the same thing here claiming a fluorescence (what ever that is) can be interchanged with Jasmine 231.

    When I started off I spent $1000s because of posts like yours I read online. Which caused me to end up buying crappy oils from some random MLM essential oil company or some other impure oil or not understand how much of a difference there is between say Vetiver Haiti and Vetiver Indonesia even though both were vetivers, it set me back years. It is unfortunate that beginners will read a post by you and leave with the wrong impression that you can replace X with Y for some totally wrong reason. And any time you are questioned you hide behind a statement that you are a beginner and your statement is just an opinion and in the very next post you go and make astounding claims like this post. And you state them as fact, telling everyone how supposedly "jasmine fluorescence" and "jasmine 231" are the same.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Uhmm....i do not know this company, but, if it is true that they encourage the use of "oil fragrances" or "fragrance" without other specifications, this isn't a real help for perfumery learning. This leaves you blind. I'm agree with Matt about freedom of artistic expression, But , in the field of learning, like us in this forum ,I prefer scientificity, reliability, experience, repeatability, precise knowledge. Only in this way can I grow with a "scientific" approach (with personal taste and aesthetics, certainly). Without taking anything away from the artists. But their role is different.in order to make an artistic picture freely, I need to know first how to use colors. Imho and my two cents

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by needaname View Post
    You keep talking about experimentation but then you make random posts about how the material from perfumers world is the same as something made by Firmenich. Have you tried the two materials? Have you bought jasmine fluorescence and Jasmine 231 and compared it?

    You keep making arbitrary statements and you state them as fact. Contrary to what you claim in other posts where you claim you are just a beginner and stating a beginners opinion like others on here. You have made a lot of far fetched claims, I remember a post of yours where you claimed a particular sandalwood from a supplier was great while claiming you have never smelt real sandalwood. How can you know what good smells like if you have never really smelt it? And you did the same else where claiming you can interchange two items because they had leather in their notes on TGSC. That is like claiming you can interchange IBQ with Cypriol in a formula because they both have leather in their notes. And you are doing the same thing here claiming a fluorescence (what ever that is) can be interchanged with Jasmine 231.

    When I started off I spent $1000s because of posts like yours I read online. Which caused me to end up buying crappy oils from some random MLM essential oil company or some other impure oil or not understand how much of a difference there is between say Vetiver Haiti and Vetiver Indonesia even though both were vetivers, it set me back years. It is unfortunate that beginners will read a post by you and leave with the wrong impression that you can replace X with Y for some totally wrong reason. And any time you are questioned you hide behind a statement that you are a beginner and your statement is just an opinion and in the very next post you go and make astounding claims like this post. And you state them as fact, telling everyone how supposedly "jasmine fluorescence" and "jasmine 231" are the same.


    My point is this;
    I don`t want to steer people away from experimenting for themselves.
    I don`t want to steer people away from asking questions for themselves.
    I don`t want to steer people away from contacting suppliers - for themselves.

    I want people to inquire, to experiment, to discover.
    This is the SPIRIT I promote. The attitude of creative inquire.

    Question
    Is there actual, hard evidence to suggest that Perfumersworld materials are bad quality?
    And... if there IS absolute, hard evidence to suggest that these materials are bad quality....
    Then one SHOULD follow their logic - and they should not purchase from them.

    Yet,
    I have not come across this evidence.
    I have only come across opinions.
    No evidence has been given to me to suggest their materials are very bad.
    No evidence has been given to me to suggest these "fluorescence," materials are not the same
    materials, listed under the same synonyms - on TGSC database.

    I applaud your skeptical mindset.
    Skepticism is as much a part of the process as creative play is.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I don`t want to steer people away from experimenting for themselves.
    The whole point of forums like this is so that people do not have to start from scratch and experiment with bad quality oils to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    No evidence has been given to me to suggest these "fluorescence," materials are not the same
    materials, listed under the same synonyms - on TGSC database.
    I do not trying to be dense or just trolling. but if you have ever smelt two thing you will know they are not the same thing. Why don't you follow your own suggestion and buy a fluorescence and something like gelsol or Jasmine 231 and compare the two and report back. You are supposedly all about "experimenting". But i guess that would be too much to ask.

    And by your logic why buy good grade perfumery material just go buy one of those cheap jasmine oil you can get for $10 per 100ml and "experiment".

    But then I guess you are not really trying to really help anyone out but rather just stir the pot or be the loudest voice in the room.

    Anyway I done with you,it is pointless you are not here to learn or contribute anything of value.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by needaname View Post
    You keep talking about experimentation but then you make random posts about how the material from perfumers world is the same as something made by Firmenich. Have you tried the two materials? Have you bought jasmine fluorescence and Jasmine 231 and compared it?

    You keep making arbitrary statements and you state them as fact. Contrary to what you claim in other posts where you claim you are just a beginner and stating a beginners opinion like others on here. You have made a lot of far fetched claims, I remember a post of yours where you claimed a particular sandalwood from a supplier was great while claiming you have never smelt real sandalwood. How can you know what good smells like if you have never really smelt it? And you did the same else where claiming you can interchange two items because they had leather in their notes on TGSC. That is like claiming you can interchange IBQ with Cypriol in a formula because they both have leather in their notes. And you are doing the same thing here claiming a fluorescence (what ever that is) can be interchanged with Jasmine 231.

    When I started off I spent $1000s because of posts like yours I read online. Which caused me to end up buying crappy oils from some random MLM essential oil company or some other impure oil or not understand how much of a difference there is between say Vetiver Haiti and Vetiver Indonesia even though both were vetivers, it set me back years. It is unfortunate that beginners will read a post by you and leave with the wrong impression that you can replace X with Y for some totally wrong reason. And any time you are questioned you hide behind a statement that you are a beginner and your statement is just an opinion and in the very next post you go and make astounding claims like this post. And you state them as fact, telling everyone how supposedly "jasmine fluorescence" and "jasmine 231" are the same.

    needaname, I agree, this is close to trolling.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Who in the world am I, or you to tell them what they should, or should not do?
    I am one who knows, You are one who does not.
    Nearly everything you've said about these Jasmine bases, is completely wrong.
    PW bases ARE very cheaply made, amateurish bases.
    I can't think of any serious perfumer that I know of that uses them.
    They are universally dismissed as nothings.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Glad to see you, Paul.

    To claim one product is actually a repackage of another or its professional equivalent, one at least ought to have smelled it. I have Jasmin 231. I am sure many here do.

    I feel bad for any individual who may take up the OP's web offer of 60 ml of custom perfume for $300, promised to be made with the finest materials. It takes experience and actual comparisons to be able to make judgments of value regarding materials.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I am one who knows, You are one who does not.
    Nearly everything you've said about these Jasmine bases, is completely wrong.
    PW bases ARE very cheaply made, amateurish bases.
    I can't think of any serious perfumer that I know of that uses them.
    They are universally dismissed as nothings.
    Ok Paul. I can see you want to be taken seriously here.
    I know that you have more experience than myself. Absolute 100% you have more experience.
    And you keep saying over and over again, "trust me Perfumersworld has bad materials."

    And you would like me, and everyone else to take your opinion as fact.
    And I WOULD like to take your opinion as fact.
    I would like to trust you.

    However, you have posted no scientific findings.
    You have posted nothing in the way of chemistry, or analysis of Perfumersworld`s materials.
    You have posted no hard evidence to support your thesis.


    OBVIOUSLY, Me, and even thinking member of this forum must ask themselves:
    Do you have evidence to suggest what you are saying is fact?

    Or is this simply your opinion?
    YES, you have experience....
    But still, it is ONE opinion amongst many.


    Since we are discussing something important here.
    The Quality of materials...
    *And I agree that we should all be trying to source quality materials

    I would like to exit the realm of subjectivity here, and look to facts.
    If you have OBJECTIVE FACTS (and not opinions) to support your idea: that Perfumersworld`s materials are not good.

    Then I would like to see this evidence for myself.
    Such that, I can make a decision for myself....wether or not to continue buying from them.

    Do you understand?
    I am not trying to undermine you.
    This is nothing person. I am thinking person, who takes nothing for granted.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Glad to see you, Paul.

    To claim one product is actually a repackage of another or its professional equivalent, one at least ought to have smelled it. I have Jasmin 231. I am sure many here do.

    I feel bad for any individual who may take up the OP's web offer of 60 ml of custom perfume for $300, promised to be made with the finest materials. It takes experience and actual comparisons to be able to make judgments of value regarding materials.
    When someone asks me to make (for example)
    very simple perfumes of; orris butter, osmanthus and jasmine absolute...
    And they paid me with their hard earned cash, I ALWAYS get all my naturals from Eden Botanicals.
    The reason I get my materials from Eden Botanicals is because they have a wonderful reputation.
    I am 100% transparent with my process.

    Still, I AM only going on reputation.
    And you DO raise a good point Bill.


    Short of having a GCS machine...
    How can a DIY perfumer GUARANTEE absolute 100% quality?
    I`m not talking about subjective things like "reputation."
    I`m talking about 100% objective fact.

    For example...
    How can the DIY perfumer be absolutely certain they are getting the purest 100% best synthetics straight from IFF, firmenchi or any other big house?

    Any ideas how we can bypass the subjective?

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    many different problems raised....uhmmm....let's try:

    OPINIONS/EXPERIENCE : it is true that every opinion is one and is subjective, But opinions are weighed. They have a different specific weight. In a professional context, the opinion of an expert craftsman is more important than that of an apprentice. It is true that even the most expert can make mistakes, but on average his opinion is more considered. it is not an infallible method,i'm agree. But it is the one normally used by everyone.

    MATERIALS QUALITY: Each of us wants to improve in our hobby and achieve better results. To do this, for years we have been doing tests and research on many materials that come from different sources. The result of this research is thousands of attempts, purchases, tests and comparisons on materials.research . se un determinato fornitore non è fra i primi preferiti da questa comunità, è perchè in questo processo non è emerso con qualità particolari.Even if we talk about art and not about work, in every discipline there is a community of experts. but, if you believe this to be wrong, it brings additional knowledge and judgment (gcms test, price / quantity ratio and comparison, particular olfactory qualities, etc.) and the community can retrace its steps. Otherwise, a community of experts will hold their own opinion.

    SUBJECTIVE/OBJECTIVE : For materials compositions (percent of molecules,etc) yes, there's a scientific method. Objective. but in the perfumes there is a subjective and qualitative component that cannot be eliminated. For example, in musical context, the community of experts has decided that the ninth symphony of Beerhoven deserves a place in the classics unlike Madonna's "True Blue". And that's not "scientific". If you think Madonna deserves a place in the classics, You have to convince the community of experts, arguing technically and aesthetically. Not arguing about why their opinion and its validity, but about the validity of your song. You have to describe it in depth, with its merits, which in your opinion make it a classic. Thus, they will eventually change their mind and choose your song.

    CERTAINTY: We CANNOT HAVE ANY CERTAINTY that the materials are always those declared. We have to trust the commercial system (trying out the various retailers, gcms, organoleptics, etc.). Who wants this absolute certainty should stop making perfumery. Because the only way would be to watch all the distillation processes of the oils
    * and buy on the spot taking the oil immediately from the straw of the distiller. And the only way to certainly have an ingredient Firmenich or Iff is to go to the factory and buy it as it leaves the machine. But not for this reason let's stop making perfumery.

    imho, bye

    I realize now that I've raised another thousand issues and the story could never end ;-)

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post

    How can the DIY perfumer be absolutely certain they are getting the purest 100% best synthetics straight from IFF, firmenchi or any other big house?
    As Geco said: ".....go to the factory and buy it as it leaves the machine."

    Other than that, it's all about TRUST.

    So you've answered your own question:

    When you buy a material from a particular seller (".....because they have a wonderful reputation" as you said = you trust them) confidence is high. Even more so when a particular material is advertised as being a Firmenich, Givaudan, IFF (etc.) product. One would think that 'passing off an inferior product as genuine' would not be in the best interest of any company that wants to stay in business and maintain their wonderful reputation.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    I have never bought their fleuressences because I need to know that I can source the bases from elsewhere if one supplier goes out of business. I therefore cannot comment on their quality.

    I have bought aroma compounds from them in the past and these were fine. The caps of their bottles are poorly designed, however.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I have never bought their fleuressences because I need to know that I can source the bases from elsewhere if one supplier goes out of business. I therefore cannot comment on their quality.

    I have bought aroma compounds from them in the past and these were fine. The caps of their bottles are poorly designed, however.
    Pears,
    I bought both their aroma compounds and their fluorescence products,
    I have compared perfumers worlds fluorescence products to my IFF and Firmenich
    accords and their fluorescence products are just fine.

    Anyone who tells me that their products are inferior will have to provide me
    hard, objective evidence for me to change my opinion of this.
    I can’t rule out a supplier just because of “opinions”

    Regarding the idea that “I don’t know what’s in the flouresence accords,
    **I also have no idea about the secret formula that makes up my Dorinia Accord either.
    I have no idea what’s in my Jasmine IFF accords.

    So I can’t dismiss Perfumersworld accords because I do t know what’s in them.
    If I dismiss Perfumersworlds accords because I don’t what’s in them - then
    BY the same measure, by the same logic, I should dismiss all other accords who’s formula I do not have.

    Again, I think it is important to separate opinion from facts.
    I feel it’s unfair to dismiss perfumersworld, or any other suppliers materials as “no good,”
    without providing hard evidence of this.

    In fact, suggesting a company sells inferior products without providing evidence,
    is considered an attack on their reputation. Perfumersworld is not located in the USA
    But if it were, those making such suggestions could open themselves up to all sorts of legal ramifications.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I have never bought their fleuressences because I need to know that I can source the bases from elsewhere if one supplier goes out of business. I therefore cannot comment on their quality.

    I have bought aroma compounds from them in the past and these were fine. The caps of their bottles are poorly designed, however.
    Yes on both.

    My one order from them, because the items in it were ones I could not purchase from a US retailer and I needed only very small amounts and so Pell Wall would have cost me a lot more (but looking back I regret my decision) certainly did not arrive in good shape.

    I can say quite truthfully that the package I received smelled like s***!!!

    The skatole metal bottle leaked slightly from its strange cap arrangement. NOT GOOD.

    Thank goodness it was only the 1% material.

    Another bottle leaked half its contents into the plastic bag it was wrapped in. Fortunately it was only a medium odor strength material and also It probably served to help somewhat improve the Mr Poopy Pants odor filling my mailbox.

    I was unimpressed with the professionalism involved.

    However, in my opinion this thread was only ever about raising controversy. It was a guaranteed hot button with the group's consensus already known and the claimed argument, that Firmenich Jasmin 231 was listed along with many other materials including different ones from PW, never making any sense except as a pretext to get reaction.

    I also don't buy that any person will genuinely think simultaneously that they should be believed when presenting as alleged fact that a PW fleuressence is actually Firmenich, using only the above pretext and no actual evidence of any kind, and that everyone else must provide scientific proof for what they share as expressed opinion. That kind of thing really screams (to me) of what's actually going on.

    I only came back to this thread due to seeing Paul, and now am again done with it. Never any legit merit to the claimed basis.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Pears,


    Anyone who tells me that their products are inferior will have to provide me
    hard, objective evidence for me to change my opinion of this.
    I can’t rule out a supplier just because of “opinions”

    In fact, suggesting a company sells inferior products without providing evidence,
    is considered an attack on their reputation.
    So....don't rule out a supplier! Buy from whatever company you like. Needing hard evidence about PW really isn't necessary is it? So what if others have a negative opinion about them -- you're not affiliated with the company and therefore don't have any reason to put yourself in the position of being the reputation police. Kind of a waste of time I think. Just enjoy your materials from wherever they come.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Pears,
    I bought both their aroma compounds and their fluorescence products,
    I have compared perfumers worlds fluorescence products to my IFF and Firmenich
    accords and their fluorescence products are just fine.
    No offense intended, but I wasn't really looking for assurances. You may be right, but given your level of experience I couldn't just take your word for it. For the reason given in my last post, I would never use their fleuressences anyhow.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    So....don't rule out a supplier! Buy from whatever company you like. Needing hard evidence about PW really isn't necessary is it? So what if others have a negative opinion about them -- you're not affiliated with the company and therefore don't have any reason to put yourself in the position of being the reputation police. Kind of a waste of time I think. Just enjoy your materials from wherever they come.
    My intentions were to separate “opinion,” from “fact.”
    I am satisfied with my efforts, and won’t post in this thread any longer.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    Well
    I have had good luck with all their materials

  19. #49
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    Default Re: Perfumers world "fluorescence," materials are actually professional grade materials!

    The thread has come in for landing, I think. I am closing it.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.




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