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Thread: Taking my leave

  1. #1
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    pkiler's Avatar
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    Default Taking my leave

    I relinquish all leadership and mentorship responsibilities.

    The forum will be what someone else wills it to be, than what I would wish it to be.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I have to say as for myself, what has been the case lately is not worth what it drains.

    I had planned to post nothing, for this reason, and did post yesterday only because of your return.

    There is no enjoyment in discussion when there is not sincerity and respect, and there is no or little value to those wanting to learn when things are posted purely for arguing whether believed or not or whether having experience to say or not.

    Very sad to see.

    I am undecided on what I do but believe at the least I will not post at all, no matter what, on the threads in question. The problem is, for those trying to learn, of which I am one, it won't be clear that from the lack of experienced correction that this is because of the situation or whether it's because whatever was posted was true. The quality level will go down drastically I fear. (Not so much from my absence from such topics of course as from now two professional perfumers, by which I mean those who have had professional success at it for years now or many years, who cannot take this, and perhaps more loss than this.)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    It's only one potential troll. Put him on ignore if you wish and continue contributing. Do it for those that genuinely need your help. A short break may do you some good though.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    It's only one potential troll. Put him on ignore if you wish and continue contributing. Do it for those that genuinely need your help.
    ^^^^^ exactly!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I do very much hope you will stay. Your contributions are very much appreciated by me, and I am sure I am not alone in feeling that way.
    I started learning about perfumery before online groups were available. I would like to think that many of our members appreciate the incredible value and gift of having access to a forum where beginners can mingle with those more experienced.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    As a sincere newer member, I hope you’ll stay but understand if it’s too draining.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I don`t want to see Paul leave.
    I actually have an incredible amount of respect for the man.
    I`ve smelled Paul`s creations, they are fantastic.
    It`s clear to me the man KNOWS how to make perfumes.
    He absolutely does!


    At the same time, and I mean this with the utmost respect.
    The internet, and internet forums are a place for the free exchange of ideas.
    As human beings, we can not always expect one another to have the same opinions.
    As CREATIVE persons, artistic people. We certainly can not expect to always agree.

    The above statements are NOT contradiction to one another.
    1). I know that Paul can create good perfumes.
    2). And I disagree with him about a couple of things.

    I am not "trolling." Disagreement is not trolling.
    Disagreement should be expected in places like internet forums = the exchange of ideas.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Paul I get your frustration. This kind of situation is never easy.
    Part of the problem is the back and forth nature of two opposing opinions on a public platform which can and usually does cascade into an argument. A few users have made my ‘Block List’ and its just better to use the functionality temporarily or in rare instances permanently where the user/s have a permanent axe to grind . We don’t interact with each other and I still enjoy the forum for the reasons I joined it.

    A quote comes to mind - Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
    ....or something like that.

    I very rarely visit the DIY forum, but its having perfumers with experience like yourself does benefit the wider forum membership.

    I’ve learned to resist the temptation to get into it with pigs too often but occasionally when the need arises I do indulge in carving a piece of bacon if necessary.
    Currently wearing: Jubilation XXV by Amouage

  9. #9

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I personally don't think that you're a troll Matt, but I know that some here do, which is why I used the word "potential". I think that you're a little too eager to prove yourself and that you've chosen to do this in the wrong way (by lecturing others). However, I don't think that you're a troll, or a bad person. We all make mistakes and I don't want to see everyone turning on you. My advise would be for you to just get your head down and continue learning for now.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I personally don't think that you're a troll Matt, but I know that some here do, which is why I used the word "potential". I think that you're a little too eager to prove yourself and that you've chosen to do this in the wrong way (by lecturing others). However, I don't think that you're a troll, or a bad person. We all make mistakes and I don't want to see everyone turning on you. My advise would be for you to just get your head down and continue learning for now.
    Thanks man.
    Always good advice from you Pears.
    Matt

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    It's disheartening to see valuable members leave a forum because of....well....

    .....suffice to say: 'train wreck' threads that are often impossible to look away from or comment on with the required decorum. It just gets to a point. I know.

    But I too sincerely hope you'll reconsider.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    I

    The internet, and internet forums are a place for the free exchange of ideas....

    I am not "trolling." Disagreement is not trolling.
    Disagreement should be expected in places like internet forums = the exchange of ideas.
    Already Paul's thread is turning on its axis to become about something/someone else.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    Already Paul's thread is turning on its axis to become about something/someone else.
    I wouldn’t want to see Paul quit the forum.
    But, as you have suggested...it is his choice.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    Already Paul's thread is turning on its axis to become about something/someone else.
    To be fair, this thread was clearly already about someone besides Paul. He did the right thing by making it clear that he didn't want Paul to leave. However, he should not return to say anything more on the matter. Paul should now be given the space that he deserves.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Your departure is a great loss to the forum, Paul. I am rather disappointed to discover this as I am only recently returning after some family stuff. I doubt I'll be as inspired to post as I was in the past. At least we can keep in touch privately.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Sad day indeed.

    I came here to learn from scratch. Not to watch someone push others away, and turn others against each other. That’s the last thing this forum should ever be about. Bickering. Showboating. Grandstanding. Blathering.

    Thank you, Paul, for always giving my silly uneducated questions your time, sincere attention, and insightful thought.

    This isn’t going to be the same.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Paul it's very sad to see you leave,I really hope you reconsider, you have been an inspiration for all this years, please PM me with your contact information.
    Currently wearing: Grey Vetiver by Tom Ford

  18. #18

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Thank you for all your insight and knowledge, Paul. Hope you stick around.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    We are literally watching the reformulation of basenotes into a shell of its former self.

    Congratulations to those involved in this course of events, bang up job you're doing!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Glad to have met you Paul on Basenotes DIY all those years ago. It has been interesting watching you develop into a perfumer. First being the one asking the questions to later answering other’s questions.
    There remain many talented experienced people on the forum to keep the learning moving forward. As the majority of the learning on the forum is entry level there is a sameness to the questions . Every now and then a gem pops it’s head up. Great to have Jamie and Bill back but I DO miss David, Chris, Mumsy(when are you returning?), etc.
    However, I feel I can connect with any of you privately if required. .. I assume that’s accurate.
    I wish you weren't going, but I understand that you feel your time here is done. Your Facebook forum is very useful and I visit it often. Thanks for all you insights and help.
    Onward!
    Last edited by julian35; 21st August 2019 at 02:22 AM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Thank you for answering my questions and doing so kindly. I would love to say I would even settle for Ruskin delivering a good ol' clubbin' of knowledge! You will be missed. Thanks for the help! PS. Im joking David!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I relinquish all leadership and mentorship responsibilities.

    The forum will be what someone else wills it to be, than what I would wish it to be.
    Jumping in on this one... Hope you consider spending more time on the fora, as i've picked up a lot directly or indirectly from posts between you and others.

    The perfumery is just like any other skill or craft. There are rules & techniques that needs to be learned and mastered, Some of these rules & techniques are plain math & physics and are absolute.

    Learning these basics from someone who really knows the craft instead of someone who think they knows is a world in difference.

    So, for the quality of the fora i hope that you'll stick around. I also hope for the moderators for figure out some guidelines to avoid this emotional drainage, as i see there has been a'lot of that the past months.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    The perfumery is just like any other skill or craft. There are rules & techniques that needs to be learned and mastered, Some of these rules & techniques are plain math & physics and are absolute.

    Learning these basics from someone who really knows the craft instead of someone who think they knows is a world in difference.

    So, for the quality of the fora i hope that you'll stick around. I also hope for the moderators for figure out some guidelines to avoid this emotional drainage, as i see there has been a'lot of that the past months.
    Agreed 100% on all points.

    Your point is also a general one that applies to fora everywhere Especially as I do not want to get banned again nor violate the rules, nearly all of my reply here, all of it up to the point of saying it is specific, is general to all fora and all sorts of persons and situations where such drainage and turmoil might occur, as you have raised exactly that question.

    I can appreciate it can be very difficult in a forum that has many subfora for anyone not particularly part of a given subforum to always see exactly what is going on the same way members will.

    An example is, an extreme form of trolling behavior causing all kinds of problems is when a person repeatedly posts outrageously false assertions that they cannot possibly believe themselves using completely sophomoric arguments to "support" them, and fight them to the end and never come to agreement no matter what is provided, as this creates a ton of turmoil, really irritates the mentors on a forum that's dedicated largely to learning, and is great fun for trolls. Even moreso when successfully collecting scalps that way. What a win! Many with the knowledge specific to the subforum will see this, while those with perhaps great general knowledge but not specific to the subforum will see it as probably legitimate discourse. So, what to do? Trust the experienced members of the subforum? Apply written rules to the letter and say no violation, despite (speaking generally as what happens at a percentage of websites) having a ban hammer that drops pretty fast on a single event which in writing is not necessarily a violation but is a judgment call? Lots of problems at lots of websites on this one.

    Secondly, what pattern is seen? Most people in most places, real world as well as web, don't want to cause problems in a group, and if they see that they did genuinely feel sorry about it and either express that or show it from their actions that they stop the obviously problem-causing behavior. Also, most people once it becomes shown to them that very many want them GONE have the sense of personal integrity to respect that and they go. When neither is the case, it's probably a troll and is it really worth a forum keeping them, when membership is a privilege not a right? Some forums will point to their rules and say yes, others may make it a matter of what's convenient or seems right to the mods, still others will say obvious problem, you're gone.

    Which is right? On any forum, the owners say.

    All the above was general, true across the Web as a matter of opinion.

    Specifically here, ton of turmoil and tons of draining, no doubt, and a certain posting style resumed instantly and with multiple threads immediately on Paul's "banned" listing disappearing and before Paul had even yet posted, despite reasonably good behavior in the 3 weeks prior, after lifting of previous ban for what was declared by a mod as trolling. Each may consider that coincidence or design at their own discretion. Who is to say for fact, each can evaluate according only to what seems most likely to them. Personally, I sympathize with Paul's feelings 100% and believe I would have made the same decision given the clear perpetuation of the situation.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I think this needs to be approached with a cup runneth over mindset, rather than the I need you to fill my cup mindset I see plaguing this thread. Many seem to be disheartened by PK expressing his leave of absence, because he is educated in perfumery and we weren't done yet taking from him. We weren't done yet taking his knowledge, taking his time, taking his expertise. Instead we should have our cup running over, and the best way I see to do this is to thank Paul for all he's provided thus far to the forum, and if he ever wants to come back welcome him with open arms. Life is a continuous ever changing play, and I hope if this is a turning point for you then it leads to betterment.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Paul unfortunately I noticed that You are not active on that forum... Is there any other place where we can find your precious advices?

  26. #26
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I think the point has been completely missed here, Matt continues to troll the actual perfumers then pull the innocent wide eye puppy face and appear shocked.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by CutSmut View Post
    I think this needs to be approached with a cup runneth over mindset, rather than the I need you to fill my cup mindset I see plaguing this thread. Many seem to be disheartened by PK expressing his leave of absence, because he is educated in perfumery and we weren't done yet taking from him. We weren't done yet taking his knowledge, taking his time, taking his expertise. Instead we should have our cup running over, and the best way I see to do this is to thank Paul for all he's provided thus far to the forum, and if he ever wants to come back welcome him with open arms. Life is a continuous ever changing play, and I hope if this is a turning point for you then it leads to betterment.
    That is a bit heartless in my opinion... Yes.. we are taking he's knowledge, he's time and he's expertice. Free of charge. At he's own will. And that is one part of the story. The other part of the story is that giving and sharing he's knowledge obviously has been something he has been doing with a sense of joy, satisfaction, meaning, what ever... it has made sense to do it. (Otherwise he simply would not do it)

    To take that joy, that meaning, sense of contribution from one single person just for the purpose of ego is evil.

    It is a matter that needs to be dealt with, quickly.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    I remember him sending me a box of 20 samples free of charge a few years ago. Some rare and expensive ones in there like 1930s sandalwood oil. He even asked if I needed anything more, but I didn't want to exploit his generous nature.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Taking my leave

    With a number posts directed at me, I am forced to respond.


    If this DIY forum were one of strict hierarchy...
    If, from the beginning, the forum rules clearly stated;

    1). junior members can not put questions to, or
    2). junior members shall not disagree with senior members.


    Then, I would have to agree with the sentiments directed at me in the above posts


    Still, as far as I am aware...
    This forum is a place for open discussion amongst artists of all levels.

    It`s also my opinion that;
    - as creative people we can expect sometimes unique, sometimes difficult questions from each other.
    - we can expect unique, creative ideas from each other
    - and as creative people we may not always agree

    It`s also my opinion that
    1). disagreement of opinion
    2). trolling

    Are 2, very different things.

    Bill, I can promise you. I am not trolling.
    My questions, though not always well organized, are absolutely sincere.


    I suppose I could also suggest this?
    If the founders of this forum want this forum to be a highly organized hierarchy.
    It is their decision to make? This is not a decision for me to make....

    Personally, I like the idea of open discussion.
    I sincerely believe that for artists asking questions is a good thing.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Taking my leave

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    With a number posts directed at me, I am forced to respond.

    1. This forum is a place for open discussion amongst artists.

    2. As creative people we can expect novel questions and novel idea from others

    3. As creative people we can not always expect to agree.

    4. Disagreement of opinion is not trolling.

    If one senior member decides to leave because a junior member disagrees with them
    about one single idea. This is his/her decision.

    I am sorry to see Paul leave, he is knowledgeable.

    But the greatest artists had their style, their “way,” which differed from others. Picasso and Michaelangelo were genius. Each had a very different vision of the world.

    I’m not suggesting that I am “great.”

    What I mean to say is this; what makes an artist unique is their unique, personal approach to their art. Each artist tries to construct a unique relationship with the universe. For this very reason, creative individuals can not always expect to have the same opinion.

    I would not leave the forum because someone with less experience disagreed with me. It’s very sad to see this reaction.

    I wish Paul would stay.
    This discussion is mostly nonsense. And the case is moot. Paul has his own reasons for his choices. If you feel targeted, rise above with your actions; those always speak louder than words, as we all know. Hopefully Paul can be inspired to return by the action he sees in the forum.

    Edit; I would just like to add that no idea, theory or person is ever beyond reproche. People do somewhat gang up on you Matt (rather uncharitably sometimes) but you would be wise and do well to consider why. That’s is how we better ourselves, our communication, and pursuance of this craft. Of course you will say you do so. But where corporation is required, you must also convince your interlocutors, not only yourself.
    Last edited by George Tedder; 21st August 2019 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Addition




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