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  1. #31

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Would say only in part and much less if the price-quality ration, the notes/ingredients and/or the company values and history do somehow, at least in part, compensate for their often expensive and thus less/little affordable asking price
    Currently wearing: Ambré Noble by Zara

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Prince View Post
    Have to disagree on at least a few from that list. I haven't come across anything that I've purchased that I personally consider to be a scam.
    Not saying these houses produce crap. Just that the majority of their frags are stuff already seen before, not very interesting, mostly 5, 6 and 7/10 to my nose, and only a few are 8 and 9/10, but none have blown me away as masterpieces, like some frags from real creative houses did (some frags from the houses I listed at the end*) . And how these have been founded and managed (trying to copy existing concepts and just adding a twist, like PdM or By Kilian - or - create new fragrances that are very mass appealing, with little to norisk in terms of scents, basically designer structure, like MFK, Ex-Nihilo and AdP) is clearly showing their goal to create their customer bases asap, in order to increase their value quickly and be acquired quickly.

    With a few exceptions in my list: Fragrance du Bois, SHL, Creed, and De Nicolai. Despite I think these are really top notch quality, I think their price tag is really inflated, targeting the kind of customers who think that "since it's more expensive, it's probably unique". Some of their frags may have been indeed unique 10 years ago, but not anymore, thus prices should reflect that (excpet maybe for a couple of SHL and FdB frags, but when I say a couple, I mean : 1 or 2).


    This list is opposed to real unique indie houses that imo had a different way of thinking, and aside of making money, also have a creativity goal, and a love for the perfumery as an art. I'm thinking at *Etat Libre d'O., Orto Parisi/Nasomatto, Pierre Guillaume, Jovoy, Tauer, Beaufort, Rania J and such. I doubt Rania J or ELdO will ever foster the interest of big corps, because they are not mainstream, offer really unique scents (for a good half of their stuff).

    To me, quality of ingredients is not enough to deserve a high price tag: creativity and unicity is what deserves it. Not because I like to smell different compared to my neighbor, no. Just because there is something that scares me more than death: being bored. And so does my nose.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    With all due respect, most of the comments above deal with quality vs price gripes, or deceptive marketing and overselling, which - let's be honest - is an everyday occurrence, resumes and dating included.

    Scam or fraud is quite different.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by maksidrom View Post
    With all due respect, most of the comments above deal with quality vs price gripes, or deceptive marketing and overselling, which - let's be honest - is an everyday occurrence, resumes and dating included.

    Scam or fraud is quite different.
    Indeed I said a few posts earlier that "scam" was not the proper legal term to define it. But in popular language, scams refers to deceptive marketing or disappointment factoring in the price.
    Anyways, the meaning of this thread seems pretty clear to understand, let's not start a semantics debate.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    Indeed I said a few posts earlier that "scam" was not the proper legal term to define it. But in popular language, scams refers to deceptive marketing or disappointment factoring in the price.
    Anyways, the meaning of this thread seems pretty clear to understand, let's not start a semantics debate.
    The OP is exactly about the proper legal definition, as far as I can tell.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    And if you don't know, feel free to guess, in terms of unrealistic aspects to the company. Now what I mean is that it looks like some "entrepreneur" was able to convince a few gullible investors that the fragrance industry was booming, so that all they would have to do is to go to a major fragrance-making company to create some niche-like fragrances, put them in fancy bottles, give the line a "high class" name, and sell them for a couple hundred dollars per 50 ml bottle.
    Actually you pretty much summarized the process. These entrepreneurs are not interested by the final products, but just to found a cash-machine that would generate high returns in a short amount of time and resell it for big bucks a few years later. What is currently happening in the cosmetics industry which is booming. No "scam" here, just a lot of poor products flooding the market, that some average joe see as masterpieces.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    For me Maison Margelia is a tough one. I really like quite a few fragrances in ther Replica series. In fact, a few a love. The problem is that they’re expensive (IMO), and I never see them for less than full retail. At $130 price point, I can order something from Mancera, Montale, Tom Ford, Knize, Tauer, etc.

    While I don’t consider them a scam in any way, I simply don’t see them as a good value. Even with all of that said, I still want to get a few bottles from the line.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by maksidrom View Post
    The OP is exactly about the proper legal definition, as far as I can tell.
    The word "scam" only appears in the title, and he never mentionned "legal definition" as far as Ive read. What the OP seems to be angry at and describes in his first post is deceptive marketing because of greed (what many would commonly call "scam")that, despite having always existed, has really increased in the last 20 years of investor behavior, and is becoming shockingly obvious in the cosmetics field with the many new or young houses that are basically bottling stuff that is very average in terms of quality, but most of all, in terms of novelty/creativity in the blends.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    If you’re talking about Bogart OMS, that’s awesome! I don’t have that one yet, but OMS Oud Edition is my favorite of the three I own from the house.

    Is PdM really that bad?

    They seem to be disliked by some on the forum here, but I’ve also heard good things about this house. Especially Layton and Layton Exclusive. I’ve considered blind buying these myself.
    The original Bogart One Man Show is a certified monster. Love it.

    And yes, Parfums de Marly is basically a stronger, more synthetic and overpriced Paco Rabanne (excluding classics by the latter).
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    While I don’t consider them a scam in any way, I simply don’t see them as a good value. Even with all of that said, I still want to get a few bottles from the line.
    Totally my thoughts. MMM (like many others) is pretty good, just way overpriced. Like others, the impression and marketing image is niche, while being at designer level imo. (Or just a small step up in terms of quality). The main problem, is that mainstream designer frags should be listed at $30/60 for 100ml, and not $80/140 like nowadays.
    Also, at a few exceptions, MMM is really the perfect example of a brand that retailors classic concepts to modern tastes, with a twist, and that's it. Basically: pure copycats aimed at pleasing masses and create their customer base as quick as possible (with a few exceptions).

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    To me, quality of ingredients is not enough to deserve a high price tag: creativity and unicity is what deserves it. Not because I like to smell different compared to my neighbor, no. Just because there is something that scares me more than death: being bored. And so does my nose.
    I like this.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    When it comes to scammy companies I would name just about any company claiming to be all natural. An example being Heretic perfumes. Any person with at least some basic knowledge of fragrance formulation will be able to tell that it's not all natural in the slightest. Not that it matters how much naturals you have in your formula! But false advertising is false advertising.

    Also, Phlur, not niche but their social media advertising campaign was just ugly, also claiming to be "all natural, clean, yada yada" and actually shaming companies that use synthetic molecules calling them "harmful".
    I really wish certain companies in the industry would cut the bullcrap and stop promoting this awful harmful idea that natural perfumes are "cleaner, safer that these horrible chemicals". But also wish the consumers would be less gullible and be willing to educate themselves.

    Other scammy behaviour to me includes houses where the founder claims to be the perfumer whereas in fact, they've never sat behind a scale in their life.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by painted_klown View Post
    For me Maison Margelia is a tough one. I really like quite a few fragrances in ther Replica series. In fact, a few a love. The problem is that they’re expensive (IMO), and I never see them for less than full retail. At $130 price point, I can order something from Mancera, Montale, Tom Ford, Knize, Tauer, etc.

    While I don’t consider them a scam in any way, I simply don’t see them as a good value. Even with all of that said, I still want to get a few bottles from the line.
    You can get them discounted here: https://www.parfumdreams.co.uk/Maison-Martin-Margiela

  14. #44

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Did anyone see the recent article on Celine in the WSJ called, Scents of Occasion? There will be 11 new scents launched.

    Many fashion design houses are launching their own lines of fragrance "exclusives" to varying levels of artistry and success.

    I usually end up buying one or two of a line.

    I love it when a line is successful, but sad when the offerings tend to be lukewarm.

    Hedi Slimane, now at Celine, was behind many of the Dior exclusives that I love so much such as Bois d'Argent.

    A cursory glance also mentions a Nightclubbing, Black Tie and Bois Dormant. (Nightclubbing mentions a leather note!)

    https://fashionmagazine.com/beauty/h...ine-fragrance/
    "That lover which is like fragrance
    Whose voice is as beautiful as Urdu.

    She who hides in the flowers
    you can only find her from her fragrance."

    "Chaiyya Chaiyya," from the film, "Dil Se."
    <div class="bnsotd"><b>Currently wearing:</b> <a href="ID26125293.html"><img src="http://www.basenotes.net/photos/products/33/26125293.jpg"> Hypnôse by Lancôme</a></div>

  15. #45

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    every industry thats commercialized in a capitalistic system seem to have a scam like practice if you dissect into it....

    for instance - lets say im a knife expert working in the industry. i'll know that most companies making knives are using subpar material with ridiculous markup and budget heavily into advertising and not product. as a knife expert, i can find the specific company or person to make the perfect knife for me. however less then a handful of people in the whole world can understand why that knife is perfect for someone specific as me. it will not have a mass appeal for the company to stay afloat and expand. even that specific knife maker that had the perfect knife for me will eventually have to cater to the mass to keep his shareholders happy once his business becomes successful. replace knife with fragrance or anything else in the world.

    at the end of the day business will do what businesses have always done and have to do.

    even if creed or byredo has a stupid markup which seems obviously scammy to many fragrance enthusiasts, there are many casual fragrance consumers that fully enjoy the scent, bottle design, backstory, or whatever the company is trying to sell. if that idea of creed scent being worn by kings hundreds of years ago is worth $400 and makes the consumer feel like it has the value and makes them happy - theres nothing wrong with that practice. most of us are using iphones or clothes which is arguably much worse "scam" to many people.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    None

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by djkoo View Post

    even if creed or byredo has a stupid markup which seems obviously scammy to many fragrance enthusiasts, there are many casual fragrance consumers that fully enjoy the scent, bottle design, backstory, or whatever the company is trying to sell. if that idea of creed scent being worn by kings hundreds of years ago is worth $400 and makes the consumer feel like it has the value and makes them happy.
    I m ready to bet that if we take a panel of 100 average persons with tastes culturally defined as masculine, and tell them to test the $300 a pop whole line-up of Byredo, PdM and Creed, there may be a debate for Creed, a small majority would agree that PdM is not worth the price, and there would be a consensus at 90% that Byredo is very overpriced for what it is.
    That may be different for a panel of persons with tastes culturally defined as feminine, since Byredo is a brand clearly targeting the feminine side of the market.

    Not saying Byredo is bad. I admit that I even thought about buying Pulp, but changed my mind when I saw the price tag. Indeed, it's a "nice" scent, but kind of an 8/10 for me, and the whole line of Byredo has really poor performance. And for that, I m not willing to spend more than $50 a pop for an 8/10.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Their enduring nature makes the use of the term "scam" sound like so much sour grapes. I'm content to conclude that I am simply not the intended target audience. My view is at that price tier, there's simply no way it is going to have value to me for the reasons I wear fragrances. Some people highly value the buying experience, some value ownership of the product outside of wearing it, some value things that cannot be measured but rather perceived at the person's discretion. And they have the resources to buy accordingly. Good for them. It's not for me though.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    I m ready to bet that if we take a panel of 100 average persons with tastes culturally defined as masculine, and tell them to test the $300 a pop whole line-up of Byredo, PdM and Creed, there may be a debate for Creed, a small majority would agree that PdM is not worth the price, and there would be a consensus at 90% that Byredo is very overpriced for what it is.
    That may be different for a panel of persons with tastes culturally defined as feminine, since Byredo is a brand clearly targeting the feminine side of the market.

    Not saying Byredo is bad. I admit that I even thought about buying Pulp, but changed my mind when I saw the price tag. Indeed, it's a "nice" scent, but kind of an 8/10 for me, and the whole line of Byredo has really poor performance. And for that, I m not willing to spend more than $50 a pop for an 8/10.


    lets just say you're correct in your hypothetical situation (which i tend to agree with to some extent).

    the point of my post that wasnt explicitly said is that these business operate this way because these consumers are generally accepting of the product. if byredo's products were genuinely bad to the general population (not just in terms of scent but also in product design advertising etc) they would inevitably go out of business. thats just the system that every company works under. if products are a "scam" as we tend to think and 90% general population agrees - their business couldnt stay afloat.

    who knows tho, maybe niche products are so overpriced that 90% of people hating it can still keep them in business.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Can you elaborate on why you feel de Nicolai (this is Nicolai parfums right?) is a cash grab?

    I'm curious, any thoughts on Xerjoff then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy the frenchy View Post
    Fully agreed.I'd add
    Bond n.9
    Jo Malone
    Maison Margiela
    AdP
    The Different Company
    Atelier Cologne
    Jusbox
    Mizensir
    By Kilian
    Tom Ford (except for a few exceptions)
    MFK (with some exceptions)
    Creed (with some exceptions)
    Ex Nihilo
    House of Oud
    Fragrance du Bois (yes, them also, a house created to jump on the oud train)
    SHL
    Olfactive Studios
    De Nicolai (an historical house, but their price tag is simply ridiculous for what it is)
    Swiss Arabian
    Clive Christian
    A loooot of high end designer lines like the high end lines of YSL, Bvlgari, Givenchy, Gucci (as well as regular lines, obviously, too many to list here)

    But the kings are really Byredo and PdM in this category

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    I think it is an interesting question initially. But a lot of those mentioned I just look at as overpriced or something. I was thinking like some little known brand, almost more like the Dua model, except if they were not doing clones. Just making cheap juice and putting it in nicer bottles than Dua and charging hundreds, hoping that people could not tell the difference at all.
    It’s tragic to think that heroic man’s great destiny is to become economic man, that men will be reduced to craven creatures who crawl across the globe competing for money, who spend their nights dreaming up new ways to swindle each other.

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zealot Crusader View Post
    The original Bogart One Man Show is a certified monster. Love it.

    And yes, Parfums de Marly is basically a stronger, more synthetic and overpriced Paco Rabanne (excluding classics by the latter).
    I definitely have OMS on my to buy list. With the low cost of their bottles, I plan to slowly buy the entire like. LOL! RE: PdM. Yeah, I have heard that they are essentially designer fragrances in a nice bottle, and yet I keep hearing the opposite as well. The house is divisive, I suppose. Thank you for your input. I trust your judgement on fragrances.
    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    Thanks for the link, but I am in the USA. I looked around their site, but they do not seem to ship here, unless I am missing something.
    Quote Originally Posted by notspendingamillion View Post
    I think it is an interesting question initially. But a lot of those mentioned I just look at as overpriced or something. I was thinking like some little known brand, almost more like the Dua model, except if they were not doing clones. Just making cheap juice and putting it in nicer bottles than Dua and charging hundreds, hoping that people could not tell the difference at all.
    Now this would have been some interesting information, to be sure. This thread didn't really go in that direction, but I too would like to know the houses with cheap juice inside expensive looking bottles. It would certainly be helpful when scoping out new fragrances to try.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    No matter how expensive the bottles can be, they shouldnt cost mor ethan $10 , exluded here those with diamonds or handblown galss (labor expensive) . The juice ... some use real essential oils, I dont recall the perfume or the designer , but this perfume would use oil from 50000 rose petals that had to be collected within 2 hours of sunrise. No matter how many bottles you sell, there is no discount on wholesale oil. Labor is too expensive.
    Some niche house, especially those from expensive deisgners, take advantage of their name, after all why not. 300 doll for a creed or a tom ford or a bond ? Not all of them use esential oils, but hey .. there is this saying roughly translated in english ... stretch your feet for as far as you have the blanket .

    About the small niche houses, where the perfumer works in there, I think their charge is fair. They dont have that many sales, and from the few sales they may have, they need to pay rent, their taxes etc etc.
    www.impressiveBliss.com Uncut, strong and rich body oils and perfumes. Great impressions of fine fragrances.

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zealot Crusader View Post
    One Man Show is the entire Missing In Action movie franchise in a bottle. Perfect for waging vigilante warfare against asthma-inducing aromchems sold as pedigreed natural scent essences. This must be the work of Cobra Commander.

    (Seriously, Parfums de Marly is bad)
    I have only tried one from PD Marley but I like it and gets many compliments. I sold one to my buddy at work and he loves it and claims to draw attention when he wears it in a positive way. It is Nisean by PD Marley. I have given samples away and had one person say it is too synthetic smelling for their taste. This Cristobal that I am wearing is probably the most synthetic smelling perfume I've worn in a while. I personally kinda feel the same way about Bond no9 that you do of PD Marley lol they have some good ones but I don't really see any works of art. I do especially enjoy Scent of Peace for him though. I agree with Hednic tbh Niche or designer...Bond no9 really grabbed my attention when I first tried niche houses. Chanel and Giorgio Armani are the two designers that sucked me in and I haven't looked back.
    Creeds are the best though lol hahahehe
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  25. #55

    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impressive Bliss View Post
    No matter how expensive the bottles can be, they shouldnt cost mor ethan $10 , exluded here those with diamonds or handblown galss (labor expensive) . The juice ... some use real essential oils, I dont recall the perfume or the designer , but this perfume would use oil from 50000 rose petals that had to be collected within 2 hours of sunrise. No matter how many bottles you sell, there is no discount on wholesale oil. Labor is too expensive.
    Some niche house, especially those from expensive deisgners, take advantage of their name, after all why not. 300 doll for a creed or a tom ford or a bond ? Not all of them use esential oils, but hey .. there is this saying roughly translated in english ... stretch your feet for as far as you have the blanket .

    About the small niche houses, where the perfumer works in there, I think their charge is fair. They dont have that many sales, and from the few sales they may have, they need to pay rent, their taxes etc etc.
    That's akin to saying a painting should never be valued at more than the sum of the supplies (paint, canvas, and wood).

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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by CutSmut View Post
    That's akin to saying a painting should never be valued at more than the sum of the supplies (paint, canvas, and wood).
    This person you quoted is also selling clone fragrances (as body oils) with a link in their signature to their personal online store, which represents a conflict of interest when discussing the value of niche. Just my 2 cents. *whistles*
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zealot Crusader View Post
    This person you quoted is also selling clone fragrances (as body oils) with a link in their signature to their personal online store, which represents a conflict of interest when discussing the value of niche. Just my 2 cents. *whistles*
    Maybe the non value as perceived by said poster is what prompted them to open a store of their own?
    "Ducks eat for free at Subway."
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Mitchell View Post
    Maybe the non value as perceived by said poster is what prompted them to open a store of their own?
    That's too generous IMO but I like the optimism!
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    And regarding the thread, I'm no anti-capitalist but yet I'm very anti-corporate. I would say it's all a scam. They're making profits far and above their pennies on the dollar spending costs.
    "Ducks eat for free at Subway."
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    Default Re: Are any niche companies basically a scam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Mitchell View Post
    And regarding the thread, I'm no anti-capitalist but yet I'm very anti-corporate. I would say it's all a scam. They're making profits far and above their pennies on the dollar spending costs.
    If this were true everyone would pile into perfume businesses and make fortunes. It is not true.

    Gross margins are very high but so are operating costs and promotional costs. Perfume businesses are profitable but aren’t money trees.

    And if you want you can buy artisanal perfumes from Areej le Dore, Bortnikoff, Sultan Pasha, Bogue, even Tauer, and not take part in the often high margin mediocre designer world.




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