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  1. #1

    Default Oud reconstitution

    I am a huge fan of black agar givco 215 and oud synthetic by firmenich. They do however cost quite a lot.

    I was wondering if anyone here has any idea of the constituents of these two oud bases. I am guessing they have captives and therefore can't be made by someone buying materials from suppliers?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    I don't know about those specific synthetics but as for the natural, Arcadi boix Camp has said.

    Naturally I do not know the total answer although I know more and more everyday and I believe the miracle is mainly made by,

    (+)-(4αS,5R)- Dihydrokaranone.
    One of the best chemicals I have smelled in my life, being powerfully woody, resinous, timbered extraordinarily diffusive and not easy to forget once known and smelled. This is on of the best woody chemicals in the world!

    (-)-Guaia-1(10),11-dien-15, 2 olide.
    Its smell is very strong, as the previous one extremely long lasting, with orris sub notes, clean, radiant, diffusive, bright, woody ambery, smelling a bit of Ambrocenide, Ambrostar, dextro Nor Limbanol, Ambermax, Cachalox, Z-11 and Limbanol whose greatness is to make us feel harmony in our souls and as a perfumer I believe its smell it is like these kind of spiritual emotions so difficult to describe.

    Jinkohol (2-epiprezizaan-7β-ol)
    Again a storm of the noblest woods we can imagine, again a moving smell, again something that touches our subjective world, again something sensitive, receptive, insightful that you cannot describe but providing an extremely rich creativity to every good and skilled perfumer.

    Softer than Jinkohol of Dihydrokaranone but imparting a special sweetness which combines extremely well with those described before and especially mixed with (-)-Guaia-1(10),11-dien-15-al. The accords of these 5 chemicals bring to you the smell of the mysterious woodiness of agarwood oils and here I say oils since all of the, bring the same results regardless of the different top note.

    Again it is extremely woody but with very important amber gris notes as important as the woody ones. Karanone would mix extraordinarily well with pure amber chemicals such as Ambrox classique (the original one containing ambrols) and by far the best, α-Ambrinol, Limbanol, Ambrostar, Laevo Cetalox, Super Ambrox, Amber Xtreme, Ambrocenide, Cachalox, Ambrinoloxide, Dehydro ambrox, Dihydro-γ-ionone, (much better than its homologues α and β and that so many people ignore in spite of its extraordinary and unparalleled softness), Timbersilk, Dextro Nor Limbanol, Trisamber, etc., etc.

    Jinkohol II.
    Again very woody and smelling of agarwood smoke something quite strange because when we distill the oils we do not get the more than 35 chromones being present in the woods and the presence of chromones is what makes the smell of the smoke richer, exalted, splendid, high, lofty and I would term as glorious… the chromones do not come on the distilled products and only on the extracted ones by Acetone, Benzene, supercritic CO2, etc. being the most important ingredients for the smoke of agarwood, amongst them 2-(2-Phenylethyl) chromones, the 2-(2-Phenylethyl)-tetrahydro chromones more mysterious that the other ones mentioned before and others. And when talking about the “wood” one of our top business, the amount of chromones is what will make you successful with your customers most of them Royals since it does not burn the same a wood with 65% of chromones or a wood with only 10% of them. Again, nothing to do with the oils but the burning of these high noble ingredients I am describing with the chromones, produce spiritual peace and I have felt this and seen it many times in my life. Luckily, I have in my houses more than 50 kilos of the best agarwood woods, those called “kanankoh”, from India, from Laos, from Vietnam, from Cambodia, from Indonesia, from Malaysia, from Bhutan, from Irian Jaya and Papua New Guinea and I wish to burn them very often to feel I am in the “Platonic pink Cloud” as described many times in my books. These chromones when burning provide an angelic olfactory harmony!

    A very unstable chemical and very difficult to detect through GC/MS since most of it, on the injection conditions of the GC injector it decomposes and forms more Dihydrokaranone. However, by itself it is a lovely smell and we should not forget that in agarwood, the ketones are the noblest ingredients as happen in vetyver too where the best smell is given by α-Vetivone, Dihydro-β-vetivone, Didehydro-β-vetivone, Didehydro-α-vetivone, Dihydro-α-vetivone, Khusimone, β-Vetivone, etc…. so both oils are what I define as noble “ketone” oils.

    This mixes very well with the described “epoxieremohilladiene” and has a beautiful note of β-Damascenone which is very rare on these chemical structures but also an orrisy-diffussive and radiant smell with reminiscences of Irones and Dihydroirone. Its woodiness it is extremely soft, almost of having soul and spirit…
    And based on other statements by him and others, also (-)-rotundone. That maybe is commercially available to big enough players, perhaps by isolation from cypriol oil, basing that on the theory that it's been listed as GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) which would not likely be done if there were no market for it. However, while important, maybe he doesn't consider it characteristic of oud. It is present in other things, even wine.

    I don't think we plebes can acquire any of these...

  3. #3
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    pkiler's Avatar
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    Dec 2007
    Southern California

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I don't think we plebes can acquire any of these...
    I believe that you are correct there.

    While I've had a customer furnish me with an oud formula base to replicate, and it uses a slew of naturals that I have and can buy, it still is a shadow of what actual oud smells like. The oud bases, even for their failures, smell closer to real oud than what can be made with publicly available materials. I think the trick is not to rely on one single oud base to represent your oud profile. Dior's Oud scent from a few years ago, uses only one of the bases, and it is thin, and immediately recognizable.

    There are enough oud bases that are affordable out there, (VS real oud prices), that we can blend our own version that is different from someone else's base.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    Bill I really appreciate the information. Thank you. I think you've demonstrated that these oud bases cant be made by someone with limited access to materials.

    Paul I definitely agree. I usually use a mix of both the bases I mentioned. I also have pretty oud by firmenich and oud maleki and oud samarat. I use ambrarome, cedramber, kephalis, kohinool, olibanum and vertofix to change the character of the ouds. I've been working on a clone of oud wood and it contains a fair bit of black agar givco so was just seeing if it was possible to make it myself to bring the cost down. Appreciate your expertise Paul and Bill

  5. #5

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    It is possible to make a fake oud accord, but it's not going to smell exactly like or anywhere near as good as the real thing.
    So if you wanted to use a fake oud note, you'd really have to be cheap.

    You might also see this thread: idea for mock oud accord

  6. #6

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    He talks about more woods and we talk about adding depth. So mine used amyris and buddhawood naturals as well as turmeric.
    I'm sure buddhawood smells wonderful, and maybe even could be construed to smell a little oud-like, but I don't think it's any cheaper than oud (price of low to medium grade oud) and therefore I don't really see why you'd want to use it in a reconstruction.
    Otherwise let me know where I can buy buddhawood EO for a good price.

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    If something is timbered then why not bisabolene, elemnol, and norlimbanol.
    I have [synthetic] elemol and I don't think you'd want to use very much of it, and not sure if it would have much to any value here.
    The smell is very resinous/terpenic, maybe more like violin rosin, and it smells most reminiscent of lemony dill pickles or thyme.

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    Lots of places talk about sweetness. So I used just the tiniest bit of maltol.
    I'm thinking maltol may be the wrong type of sweetness.

    Cedramber may be useful here. In Cedramber I pick up a bit of a "cotton candy" facet, a pleasant subtle sweetness.
    The sweet facet in oud is a bit more "bubblegum" like, however the two are not extremely that different, they seem to have a very similar sort of feel/effect to me.

    I think the vanilla/cherry aspects (another part of the "sweetness" ) comes from hydroxy derivatives of the chromone in oud. Those should be able to be easily simulated, with a little hint of vanillin, for example. Of course, I think this is optional. That may or may not be a facet in the overall fragrance profile of oud someone wants to capture.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    Hmm. I dont have maltol but I have ethyl maltol. I'm guessing they're fairly similar? Cotton candy fruity type sweetness? For general sweetness I usually use isobutavan it works really well. I've just received maple and caramel furanone. The caramel furanone is like a burnt sugar type of sweet and the maple furanone smells to me more like a caramel toffee type sweetness. When ouds dry down (some of the ones in my collection) and the barnyard type note disappears they have a very sweet toffee almost caramel character which I think maple furanone would be perfect for.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oud reconstitution

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    Cotton candy fruity type sweetness?
    It's more subtle and subdued, in a refined sort of way. I don't want to give the wrong message, Cedramber is not anywhere near the same league as maltol or those other gourmand fragrance notes.

    I'd be highly reluctant to add any other gourmand notes, otherwise your fragrance is going to smell like some sort of edible oud.

    The sweetness in natural oud is more of a benzoin type of incense sweetness (or at least that type of quality).
    Last edited by parker25mv; 6th October 2019 at 10:19 PM.

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