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  1. #1

    Default Veratraldehyde color stability question

    Hello all. I have tried vanillin and there is an issue with color stability. Since veratraldehyde is methyl vanillin, can anyone give some advice as to their experience in color stability? If it turns darker over time, how many shades darker? Also, does veratraldehyde lose its smell over time, say in an enclosed container reconstituted in DPG, stored in 1 to 2 years? Your input is highly appreciated.

    Thank you so much.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    You may want to post this question in the DIY section. Those guys are pretty good with those types of questions.
    <div class="bnsotd"><b>Currently wearing:</b> <a href="ID26148387.html"><img src="http://www.basenotes.net/photos/products/33/26148387-7393.jpg"> Carven L'Eau Intense by Carven</a></div>

  3. #3

    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    Unfortunately methyl vanillin isn't really much better than vanillin when it comes to discoloration.

    If you want a chemical explanation, the problem is the oxygen on the meta (4-) position opposite the aldehyde group. That opens the molecule up to tautomerization, through which that aldehyde group can end up getting reduced as the ring condenses with another hydroxy group on another ring. Even in the case of methyl vanillin, an available hydroxy group will still be available through tautomerization. In that case, a hydrogen that used to be on the ring has ended up migrating to the carbon of the former aldehyde group. When two molecules become conjoined, that's when you get the color effect.

    To my knowledge, there is no substance who's primary fragrance note is vanilla which does not have discoloration issues.
    However, there are several other substances with a more minor vanillic note, besides their primary one.


    I'm not thinking very hard about this right now, but I would think if you wanted to try to minimize the discoloration, the two things to do would be to try to keep the concentration of vanillin very low (lower concentration means slower rate of reaction) and to avoid acidic ingredients (like citrus essential oils).
    Many other types of substances like evernyl, cresol, eugenol and some ketones and aldehydes might also have some interaction with vanillin.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    I've never had a discolouration problem with vanillin. I always add it to perfumes at 10% dpg. Could the dpg be the reason that discolouration doesnt occur? In some instances I've used vanillin at around 2% of the perfume

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    I've never had a discolouration problem with vanillin. I always add it to perfumes at 10% dpg. Could the dpg be the reason that discolouration doesnt occur?
    Maybe -- though I could be wrong -- but since the pH of DPG is about the same as vanillin (4-5 acidic), the DPG could be helping to stabilze the vanillin as it won't tend to discolor in similar pH's. However, in combo with alcohol which is more alkaline (around 7) the blend would lean more towards neutral = slower vanilla oxidation which then further depends on the pH of other materials in the blend. Soaps can quickly turn brown with the addition of vanillin because soaps are often way alkaline which vanillin doesn't like -- though the browning = only a color change not a smell change.

  6. #6
    Basenotes Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    The problem of vanillin is the pH, some time ago I made a vanila flavor, i add alcohol, water, vanillin (food grade) n few drops of vinegar, the 'liqueur' stayed clean in a pale yellow color for near 2 months, when i add a pinch of baking soda to neutralize the vinegar, in the follow weeks the liquid turn dark like coca-cola, with some dark blurs (like a coffee ground- the crystals) in the bottle.

    i know the light turn vanillin dark in short or long time. ethyl vanillin are the same situation , however you can use a dark bottle to put the perfume, and i have tested, low concentration of vanillin don't stain the clothes

    Observation: methyl vanillin n ethyl vanillin are not the same thing.
    Currently wearing: Tai Winds by Avon

  7. #7

    Default Re: Veratraldehyde color stability question

    Interesting explanation. Wasnt even aware that dpg was acidic. Thanks for your input.




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