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Thread: Lemon Accord

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  1. #1

    Default Lemon Accord

    Creating realistic accords for sour citrus, like lemon, is not easy. And one may wonder why not just use the real thing. But there are several practical advantages to synthetic citrus accords rather than the actual real citrus oil itself.

    Actually putting together an accord that captures the beauty and realism of the citrus it's trying to copy can be very challenging, and a bit complex.

    Here's a rough outline for some of the ingredients in a lemon accord:

    Citral (or lemon myrtle, practically the same thing in this situation)
    Linalool (or lavender EO, practically the same thing in this situation)
    Geraniol
    some Ionones
    limonene (or orange EO, practically the same thing in this situation)
    a little bit of Methyl Laitone may be helpful to round it out

    acetaldehyde citronellyl methyl acetal (might be a more stable fruitier version of citronellal, I would guess from the molecular structure)

    (Another, more stable lemon molecule is Acitral. Normally citral (important lemon fragrance chemical) fades within a month when put in an acidic solution. The citral molecule has a double bond in its tail, which when it comes into contact with acid, forms a circular structure. Once citral gets into this circular form, it loses its lemony scent and starts to stink. According to the researchers at the fragrance company Flexitral, based in Chantilly, Virginia, Acitral does not have a double bond in its tail and so lasts longer.)

    Litsea cubeba is another alternative to citral.

    Citronella (or lemon grass EO ) can also help accent a lemon accord.

    There is also isoamyl geranate, as another alternative similar to geraniol.

    Also there are two different enantiomers of limonene, R Limonene and S Limonene. R Limonene is the one found in oranges and S Limonene is the one found in lemons.
    (source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/limonene )
    It's not absolutely critical but if you really want the most accurate smell from lemons from this specific chemical, it will specifically need the S Limonene variety.

    S Limonene can be pretty hard to source though. I'm not aware of any perfumery companies who offer it.

    Leffingwell lists S-limonene as "harsh, turpentine-like, lemon note"
    http://www.leffingwell.com/chirality/limonene.htm

    Another source describes S-limonene as having a pine smell (probably more in a Lemon Pine-Sol direction I would guess).

    I have R limonene (it's only commercial grade) and it smells like tangy oranges.

    (off-topic, but just for the full picture here there is also L Limonene which supposedly smells "terpene pine herbal peppery" )

    Keep in mind there are many other terpenes that sort of smell reminiscent to lemon. I found Elemol to be very reminiscent to thyme, rosinous, scratchy, lemony dill pickles. And I even find Sandaxol to have some lemony facet as well, smelling reminiscent of Tea Tree oil or Lemon Pine-Sol in addition to its reminiscence to sandalwood.
    The point is, if you are really concerned about the exact difference between the two varieties of Limonene but can't obtain the S variety, I would not be too disappointed, there are other alternatives out there that would probably take you in a similar sort of direction.

    Also you could easily use Elemi EO instead of Elemol if you wanted to, since Elemol is one of the key constituents in Elemi. Elemi has plenty of citral as well.

    Citronellal is has a similar molecular structure to citral, minus one double bond, so they are probably in the same fragrance family. Citronellal is found in lemon grass EO.

    Additionally, 3-hexenyl hexanoate may be useful to add a fruitiness to a lemon accord. (It is one of the naturals found in lemon)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    S-limonene is in perfumery generally called L-limonene and is as easy to get as falling off of a chair.

    When actually making citrus accords it will be clear that having the correct limonene isomer isn't simply a matter of being more accurate but is vital.

    I would recommend smelling the material over assuming the Leffingwell description really represents it.

    As to substituting lavender eo for linalool, etc, I can't even comment except to say, No.

    I now, especially with your other recent citrus post replying to me, which is now looking really ironic, I have absolutely no idea why I took off the useful feature the forum has for screening such things. It will be back on immediately after this post and I won't be making that mistake again.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 28th October 2019 at 03:26 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    S-limonene is in perfumery generally called L-limonene
    I'm not sure that L-limonene is the same as S-limonene.

    I seem to have trouble bringing up any clear and unambiguous sources on this.

    Maybe you are right, I found this:

    "Thus the two isomers of limonene can be named 4(R)-limonene and 4(S)-limonene. Alternative prefixes to label optical isomers include d and l and more commonly the symbols + and - are used.

    (+)-Limonene is the isomer that is found in oranges. And unsurprisingly it smells of oranges! The smell of (-)-limonene is similar to turpentine, although some people suggest it has a lemon like aroma."

    http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/limonene/limoneneh.htm

    "Orange contains D-limonene ((+)-limonene), which is the (R)-enantiomer while lemon contains L-limonene ((−)-limonene), which is the (S)-enantiomer."

    Therapeutic Use of Medicinal Plants and their Extracts: Volume 2, by A.N.M. Alamgir, p 171.

  4. #4
    Basenotes Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    well, lemonile smell lemony, powerful, sligthly metallic.

    others like : some lime varietes , citron (cédrat in french or citrus medica) have a very lemon scent, but is more sharp and a little bitter, verbena (aloysia c.) like the cédrat having a bit 'crispy' touch.
    lemon balm (melissa o.) and lemon grass are pratically identical scent, but lemon grass is a little more rustic, both have a green lemon scent. citronella oil don't remember very well lemon, but can be fine in a good worked lemon accord.

    DHM n c-12 lauric is more a to a lemon perfume, they are good into this type of fragrance or in low quant. in a lemon accord.

    Lime leaves have a brilliant lemon odour, green, fresh, bit waxy, slightly dark, can be a place in a different lemon accord.
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Here I read and I wonder how you are going to make a lemon accord without pinene and gamma-terpinene. www.thegoodscentscompany.com/gca/gc1014872.html

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    If you want to add "lemon" to bergamot, I guess bergamot has enough alpha pinene, beta pinene, and gamma-terpinene already that you may not need to add more.

    If you want pure "natural" lemon by itself, then I think you need at least beta-pinene and gamma-terpinene. And it would be good to have alpha-pinene.

    All these are sold at the perfume supply retailers.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Since Parker is on my ignore list, his post was brought to my attention.
    I can only say that there is good reason for Parker's posts to be on ignore.
    Incorrect information is not helpful to anyone.
    Paul Kiler
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    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Why are you guys hyperfocused on correctness... opinions are subjective especially where creativity is desired.
    Can both of you stop pointing out who should be ignored, give us credit for being adults... able to take every post for what it is worth to us?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    If you really want to get fired up just read my post to Rhino on tincture thread, omg you will have a field day of complaints there...
    And worse even Parker ignored my response to his formula, I get ignored a lot too

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Since Parker is on my ignore list, his post was brought to my attention.
    I can only say that there is good reason for Parker's posts to be on ignore.
    Incorrect information is not helpful to anyone.
    Indeed.

    When people post incorrect information as part of overall perfuming efforts, as an element in a good discussion, that's one thing and discussion can help everyone. But when it's presented as being expert whether directly with that word, as in a recent other citrus post specifically claiming expertise, or with a style that could give impression of expertise but it's just laden down with error, far more wrong than right, not everyone who understands the errors has the time or desire to keep dealing with that. For myself, I'm here for learning and enjoyment.

    Worse yet, many don't have the experience to spot the errors and will then suffer from things such as thinking it optional to have the correct limonene for a purpose, if they did want it then thinking it can't be obtained, get the wrong belief on what to call it in perfumery and therefore have a hard time ever finding it, waste time and materials on things such as having been told they can substitute lavender eo for linalool, etc. Not spread out over a month or anything like that, but in a single top-of-thread post!

    Not good.

    Nothing for it to be done in some instances except avert the eyes. I foolishly for some reason decided to look again, and see what happened. The button is there for a reason.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    waste time and materials on things such as having been told they can substitute lavender eo for linalool, etc.
    It's your claim that lavender eo will somehow make a big difference from using linalool in this lemon accord??
    Even though linalool will probably be a trace ingredient, or used in small quantity, anyway?

    No, I'm trying to save amateurs from having to go out and buy some new ingredient they do not really need.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Finelikeanoyster View Post
    DHM n c-12 lauric is more a to a lemon perfume, they are good into this type of fragrance or in low quant. in a lemon accord.
    I have C-9 aldehyde. It's sometimes described as "rose" or "lemon" but doesn't really smell that way to me. It smells rather maybe like just the very waxy aspect in rose petals, sort of soapy a bit, and with citrus juiciness.

    Maybe Orinox would sort of give a similar effect to that (in this situation) in extreme dilution.
    C-9 appears to be in a little more of a tangerine-mandarin direction though (in my personal opinion, just comparing the effect between the two).

    I could see Orinox being used to add accent effects to a lemon accord, but only in extreme traces as just a minor part contributing to the background.
    (The effect of Orinox seems to become more piercing and obnoxious at higher concentrations, maybe I would say even slightly stomach churning, at least to me)

    Maybe use a tiny bit of Orinox and C-9 to fill in the rest, something like 4 parts C-9 aldehyde for every trace part Orinox that is used. Both combined together, we're talking less than 4% of this accord.

    (Orinox is faint piercing orange/ soft citrus, dusty/powdery, stuffy cloying, has effects that aren't overtly recognizable. Not personally a smell I enjoy, but I recognize it could have valuable effects in the right situations)

    (And disclaimer here, I don't really know what I'm talking about, these are just loose organized thoughts)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    I'm not sure that L-limonene is the same as S-limonene.

    I seem to have trouble bringing up any clear and unambiguous sources on this.

    Maybe you are right, I found this:

    "Thus the two isomers of limonene can be named 4(R)-limonene and 4(S)-limonene. Alternative prefixes to label optical isomers include d and l and more commonly the symbols + and - are used.

    (+)-Limonene is the isomer that is found in oranges. And unsurprisingly it smells of oranges! The smell of (-)-limonene is similar to turpentine, although some people suggest it has a lemon like aroma."

    http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/limonene/limoneneh.htm

    "Orange contains D-limonene ((+)-limonene), which is the (R)-enantiomer while lemon contains L-limonene ((−)-limonene), which is the (S)-enantiomer."

    Therapeutic Use of Medicinal Plants and their Extracts: Volume 2, by A.N.M. Alamgir, p 171.
    Parker, L-Limonene is likely a name used for another reason besides the chemical name. But as a chemist, the two stereoisomers of a molecule are only ever labeled "R" or "S".
    L-Limonene is likely a name that is for marketing or otherwise. It's extremely likely that L-Limonene has nothing to do with the actual chemical name though. Marketing with chemicals is seen through name changes, especially in the world of perfumery where each of the molecule developing companies might have the same chemical with different names. Like methyl 3-oxo-2-pentylcyclopentaneacetate, or as a Perfumer knows it, Hedione.

    I understand you're trying to bring something good to the forum and that you're genuinely curious, but when there is someone on this forum who has a reputation for knowing a ton, I would recommend to listen to them. I have gained leaps and bounds from this forum, and I've seen them chew out people for false information many times. It isn't an attack on you as much as it is them defending something they are trying to teach, something they've loved and have pursued far more than you. They have years of knowledge and people like PK and Bill make/have made their living off this stuff.

    So just show some respect to these guys. If they correct you, just take it and learn from it. They aren't going to give any false information-- if they don't know the answer and aren't confident, they will say so, or not even post at all.

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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    It's your claim that lavender eo will somehow make a big difference from using linalool in this lemon accord??
    Even though linalool will probably be a trace ingredient, or used in small quantity, anyway?

    No, I'm trying to save amateurs from having to go out and buy some new ingredient they do not really need.
    As for lemon accords, beginners don't just go and do that. Think about it. When you were a beginner, I'm sure you just used lemon oil. As a beginner you don't need to learn accord making, you need to learn to blend, and you need to learn as many different smells as you can so you can get to know the "colors" you're working with.

    Next time, I would suggest asking the forum if your own lemon accord looks okay. They can give great advice. But beginners arent making lemon accords man.

    And in a lemon accord, don't use lavender lmao. Why, you might ask?
    1) smell linalool. Let your nose clear. Smell lavender. They smell far different. There's so much more in lavender that makes it lavender, so don't use that kind of substitution in an accord unless the natural you're using has a high percentage of chemicals in it that are also found the smell you are trying to recreate.
    2) Dude linalool is so so cheap, some beginners, given they are actually making a lemon accord, can afford a $5 half ounce. A half ounce will be plenty for beginner uses. Even an OUNCE. An ounce on creatingperfume is $8.30. If you can't afford that, drop making perfume until you can.


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  15. #15

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by benjwi02 View Post
    L-Limonene is likely a name that is for marketing or otherwise. It's extremely likely that L-Limonene has nothing to do with the actual chemical name though.
    Historically, the first thing that was known was whether a solution of a molecule rotated light left (laevo) or right (dextro.) Accordingly, stereoisomers were originally learned this way.

    Later, absolute configurations could be determined and then with naming rules, we have R and S.

    I don't know for a fact, but likely perfumery nomenclature predates knowledge of the absolute configurations.

    It's not marketing, it's quite correct and legitimate and in fact is what's used in this field for many compounds.

    E.g., we buy or use L-muscone. Whether it is R or S, I would bet most perfumers don't know nor is there any reason for them to, because when going to Vigon or any supplier, the L or D nomenclature is used for such compounds.

    I do need to clear up one point though: thank you indeed for your kind words, but I have only had two perfume formulations go into commercial products (cosmetics) and have made my living from medicinal chemistry applied to nutraceuticals and occasionally formulating cosmetics rather than from perfumery, and certainly lack the knowledge and experience of a real Perfumer and am here to learn. If I have something I try to share it but far more than once someone wiser / more experienced has shown me my error or lack!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Historically, the first thing that was known was whether a solution of a molecule rotated light left (laevo) or right (dextro.) Accordingly, stereoisomers were originally learned this way.

    Later, absolute configurations could be determined and then with naming rules, we have R and S.

    I don't know for a fact, but likely perfumery nomenclature predates knowledge of the absolute configurations.

    It's not marketing, it's quite correct and legitimate and in fact is what's used in this field for many compounds.

    E.g., we buy or use L-muscone. Whether it is R or S, I would bet most perfumers don't know nor is there any reason for them to, because when going to Vigon or any supplier, the L or D nomenclature is used for such compounds.
    Thanks for the response, Bill. That makes a lot more sense now. This is why people don't make claims they don't fully know .

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  17. #17
    Basenotes Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    I have C-9 aldehyde. It's sometimes described as "rose" or "lemon" but doesn't really smell that way to me. It smells rather maybe like just the very waxy aspect in rose petals, sort of soapy a bit, and with citrus juiciness.

    Maybe Orinox would sort of give a similar effect to that (in this situation) in extreme dilution.
    C-9 appears to be in a little more of a tangerine-mandarin direction though (in my personal opinion, just comparing the effect between the two).

    I could see Orinox being used to add accent effects to a lemon accord, but only in extreme traces as just a minor part contributing to the background.
    (The effect of Orinox seems to become more piercing and obnoxious at higher concentrations, maybe I would say even slightly stomach churning, at least to me)

    Maybe use a tiny bit of Orinox and C-9 to fill in the rest, something like 4 parts C-9 aldehyde for every trace part Orinox that is used. Both combined together, we're talking less than 4% of this accord.

    (Orinox is faint piercing orange/ soft citrus, dusty/powdery, stuffy cloying, has effects that aren't overtly recognizable. Not personally a smell I enjoy, but I recognize it could have valuable effects in the right situations)

    (And disclaimer here, I don't really know what I'm talking about, these are just loose organized thoughts)
    I tought in c-9 too, but this more to orange (old, dried peel, waxy, peppery),
    that true aldehyde can be strange in a lemon accord I think

    I don't know orinox, but looking in descripitions, probably i had smelled this in the drydown
    of a florestal themed perfumes (different of dryed pinenes) if i'm correct, this can be fine into lemon drydown.

    By a strange reason I think the mint oil or l-carvone, can be good into lemon accord in small amounts.
    Hedione too, confer an aqueous character, but no much, can be nauseous and strange.
    A pinch of eucaliptus, could give naturalness into a very synthetic lemon accord.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    An educated analysis of Lavender EO, based on a very common standard and available material, Lavender 40/42, Linalool content goes between 30-35%, for the two GC tests I reviewed. Linalyl Acetate content is an even higher percentage material.

    It is patently obvious, that you cannot state that Lavender EO with 30% linalool, is equal to pure linalool.

    Much more knowledge is necessary here, as this statement was made without such.

    Next, Linalool is quite possibly one of the top three most common molecules in the plant and flower world. (going out on a limb, because I could not find any study quickly to validate said opinion, but it should be rather close to being correct...) Wherever Linalool finds itself in order of occurrence, every Perfumer needs Linalool in their workspace.
    Last edited by pkiler; 29th October 2019 at 08:43 PM.
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    I'd also venture to say that even at an early stage one should have both the linalool ordinarily sold, which is racemic (both L and D) and have L-linalool, as there really is a substantial difference. (EDIT: Or have a good source of L-linalool. Ho wood is about 98% L-linalool and in a perfume formula I doubt I could tell the difference. And if the accord is going into a perfume anyway then rosewood leaf is often nice and is nearly 90% L-linalool. The effect of the remainder might be a benefit as well. I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy L-linalool if having these. Btw, L-linalool used to be sourced from rosewood -- sold as linalool ex bois de rose, which is hard to find now -- and I think now is sourced from ho wood or basil.)

    I have never owned D-linalool. By using regular linalool you get 50% anyway and that seems enough for practical purposes. (Maybe not for trying to clone some essential oils by reconstitution rather than simply buying them.) But if you wanted a more coriander aspect you'd want the D.

    For example for a lemon accord the racemic is the thing, while if you are going for a neroli or bergamot or rosewood, or want a more lavender-ish sort of linalool for whatever reason (but no one would ever think it was lavender, or vice-versa) then the L is needed.

    It is not that hard to find but I have painful memory of being a complete dumb-nuts and thinking I couldn't find it otherwise or maybe questioned other sources and blew my money getting some from Aftel. At of course probably 5 times the price I should have paid. It was perfectly good quality but there was absolutely no reason to overpay so drastically.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 29th October 2019 at 08:36 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    I still don't have linalool, because I am creeped out with lavender that is not in soap. These comments makes I see I need, at least to compare, going to the top of the list, lol.
    Yet I can't help but to wonder if the pinenes and linalool could be sourced with the addition of bergamotene. I saw the gc on tgsc for france limon oil had 30 percent, is that even real?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    I got a sample of L-limonene and can describe it:
    lemon terpene smell, in a simple sort of sour way. kind of a sharp lemon edge, or the woodiness in lemon. similar to a Pine-Sol feeling but much sharper and more abrupt note. There's no sweetness or fruitiness here. smells somewhat reminiscent of lemon but not citrus. refreshing, very clean. more of a faint smell with a strong edge. kind of astringent, very slight tang in a distinctly lemon sort of way. the burning sort of oils in lemon peel.

    The smell is much weaker than D-limonene.


    [also keep in mind that a bit of anti-oxidants should be added to any fragrance with limonene, because over time it can react with air and create skin sensitizers, also a good idea to keep it away from exposure to direct light]


    "geraniol can be found in lemons and tobacco"

    Fenchol might also go well in a lemon accord.

    para-cymene - sweet, soft, fresh, lemon, bergamot
    and no double bonds, so it's not a sensitizer
    Last edited by parker25mv; 17th November 2019 at 10:23 AM.

  22. #22
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    I had a stab at making a mix to give that a sense of 'someones just squeezed citrus fruit and dug their nails into the peel infront of my face', just over a year ago. Eventually I was quite happy with it at 3%, but at anything more than 5% it would edge on overbearing. I will revisit this formula one day, but right now, I'm not sure what I would change other than getting rid of the litsea cubea and replacing lemon EO with d-bergamot and possibly playing about with a bit of extra, short lived top note greenness.

    Citral PQ 134
    Hedione 179
    c12 mna 9
    c12 lauric 18
    c11 1% 18
    methyl pamplemousse 71
    stemone 71
    2 tridecenal 1% ethanol 27
    Decanal 4 Trans trace
    Lemon EO 304
    Litsea Cubea EO 36
    D-limonene 134

  23. #23

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Since Parker is on my ignore list, his post was brought to my attention.
    I can only say that there is good reason for Parker's posts to be on ignore.
    Incorrect information is not helpful to anyone.
    I cant see the forum without you. You make me laugh.

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  24. #24

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Historically, the first thing that was known was whether a solution of a molecule rotated light left (laevo) or right (dextro.) Accordingly, stereoisomers were originally learned this way.

    Later, absolute configurations could be determined and then with naming rules, we have R and S.

    I don't know for a fact, but likely perfumery nomenclature predates knowledge of the absolute configurations.

    It's not marketing, it's quite correct and legitimate and in fact is what's used in this field for many compounds.

    E.g., we buy or use L-muscone. Whether it is R or S, I would bet most perfumers don't know nor is there any reason for them to, because when going to Vigon or any supplier, the L or D nomenclature is used for such compounds.

    I do need to clear up one point though: thank you indeed for your kind words, but I have only had two perfume formulations go into commercial products (cosmetics) and have made my living from medicinal chemistry applied to nutraceuticals and occasionally formulating cosmetics rather than from perfumery, and certainly lack the knowledge and experience of a real Perfumer and am here to learn. If I have something I try to share it but far more than once someone wiser / more experienced has shown me my error or lack!
    Impressive resume imho.

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  25. #25

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Well thank you, but in perfumery it really isn't, perfumery really requires tremendous amounts of time doing (and of course making the time productive) and while I had a stretch that was pretty good for being able to put the work in, sometimes I've been able to do nothing, and many have more of their homework done than me, for sure. Especially the professionals, by far. As well as those who have the fantastic opportunity to be getting professionally trained.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Lemon Accord

    Rhodinol 70 may be useful. It's sort of a very dry lemon edge, sharp, rose geranium, lily of the valley direction.
    Adding some C-9 aldehyde might help add some juiciness to it.

    (Rhodinol 70 is a specific enantiomer of citronellol, derived from natural sources, smells cleaner, more perfumed/beautiful)

    Citral Dimethyl Acetal - Citrus, verbena note. Has a much milder but more natural lemon odor than citral. probably more stable than citral
    Last edited by parker25mv; 28th November 2019 at 11:12 PM.




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  5. Do you like the lemon-basil accord in Eau du Sud?
    By sabatar in forum Ancient Stuff
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 24th December 2004, 11:47 AM

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Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000