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  1. #1

    Default Ethyl phenylacetate / patchoulyl acetate / Aftel ????

    Yesterday I happened to post an anecdote of remembering painfully overpaying for linalool ex ho wood from Aftel. Having come back to my mind after a very long time of not checking, and after checking some of my usual sources I decided to tour that site anyway today to see what was presently being offered.

    I didn't go there looking for something to complain about (which one might think due to the stimulus being the memory of overpaying, and then posting doubts about what they're doing now) but in thoughts of possibly finding something interesting and having looked at all my usual suppliers recently and still having the urge to hunt. However, things didn't go as expected.

    I see ethyl phenylacetate, which I can't recall ever seeing discussed or listed in a formula (doesn't mean it hasn't been) and it sounded interesting and something I might want. But it claimed to be ex neroli, which seemed darned peculiar.

    The EOUdb shows it in few things and doesn't include neroli. It does show it in sweet orange and mandarin leaf, but at only about 0.1% or less.

    Similarly for TGSC, which for the only related thing at all shows it in mandarin petitgrain at 0.06%.

    My credulity was also strained by patchoulyl acetate being sold as "natural isolate." Not merely "natural," of which some are rather loose on the meaning, but "natural isolate." So far as I know all patchoulyl acetate is a synthetically acetylated and was not present in the plant or oil. I have never seen it in a GC/MS of patchouli nor does TGSC or EOUdb show it. Indeed, TGSC says "not found in nature."

    Am I missing something?

    On the first, one possibility could be (maybe) that someone is fractionally distilling a citrus leaf for another reason and is generating ethyl phenylacetate in tiny quantities in a fraction not used in their product, which a specialist supplier could pick up. Maybe. And then on top of this the name of the source is being mis-stated but at least within the same species maybe. But I find this pretty implausible compared to just selling widely-available "natural" ethyl phenylacetate which I have no reason to think comes from any citrus.

    But on the second I can't even conceive of an explanation besides misrepresentation.

    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 30th October 2019 at 07:25 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ethyl phenylacetate / patchoulyl acetate / Aftel ????

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    My credulity was also strained by patchoulyl acetate being sold as "natural isolate." Not merely "natural," of which some are rather loose on the meaning, but "natural isolate."
    Then we get into the blurry line of what exactly constitutes "natural".

    This source here claims that "Ethyl Phenylacetate a natural isolate from the USA, is isolated from neroli."

    I would presume that would make it very expensive.

    For me there's no way I'm paying x10 more money for a fragrance chem just because it happens to be derived from natural sources.

  3. #3
    Basenotes Plus
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    Default Re: Ethyl phenylacetate / patchoulyl acetate / Aftel ????

    I can't speak to how Ethyl Phenyl Acetate is produced as a natural, but there's an awful lot of suppliers on TGSC of Ethyl Phenyl Acetate natural.
    PellWall sells natural acetylated Patchoulyl acetate.

    Acetylation can be done on a benchtop, at room temp.

    As for what defines "Natural", well of course that's up for debate, and is defined by the person using the term.
    I think that Mandy's definition of what she will accept and use as "Natural" is quite looser than as the NPG defines it.
    NPG won't define bacteria made molecules as Natural, while I am pretty sure that it is in fact sold as a Natural.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ethyl phenylacetate / patchoulyl acetate / Aftel ????

    On the patchoulyl acetate, I don't doubt that there are suppliers calling it natural to acetylate patchouli e.o.

    I don't know what specific standards if any are used in the fragrance materials business. In cosmetics I do it very simply: if a material meets Ecocert or COSMOS standards for natural and a client wanted all-natural, I use it. If not I don't or I let them know the exact situation. In general, esterifying a natural product with another natural product using green chemistry (there is a definition for this, more or less) Is considered natural even if the resulting ester is not found in nature. So patchoulyl acetate could be called natural depending on how it's produced.

    It's the claim of being a "natural isolate." Since it's not in patchouli to be isolated that term seems not true. Call that one a technical point though.

    The bigger one is the ethyl phenylacetate.

    I wasn't in doubt whether the ethyl phenylacetate met requirements of natural as commonly used in the industry. As you said there are many suppliers. It's whether what they are selling "is isolated from neroli." as claimed.

    While sounding just wonderful if not knowing or considering facts, when considering the facts mentioned it appears completely made up.

    I could ask but in a way I am reluctant to: it's hard to believe the answer would be anything good, if I got an answer at all. Or if there is a legit explanation then I expect I'll learn my error by asking here. That was my hope in posting. If I do write them, I feel the chances are poor that anything will happen other than I'll never want to do business with them again, which doesn't help me. (This happened with a supplier I wrote very politely who had a cheap-synthetics "Sacred Jasmine Absolute" sold as being authentic complete with story of the poor villagers depending on it for their incomes whereas if I had never written them most likely I'd still be willing to do business with them, just being sure to be very aware, whereas now I simply won't even if I "need" something only they have.)
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 31st October 2019 at 07:52 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ethyl phenylacetate / patchoulyl acetate / Aftel ????

    As no one had a reason why I might be wrong on the ethyl phenylacetate, I did decide to write the Aftel people.

    The first reply I received was just a statement that this is what their supplier has said, but on my carefully and respectfully giving the reasons why it appeared an extraordinary claim, they replied with "Thank you so much for all this information. We will inquire further and share this with the person from whom we got our information."

    That is as good as can be hoped for for a prompt reply: obviously a company will want time to research for themselves.

    So we'll see what happens. So far so good, unlike the unnamed supplier above, who totally blew me off and kept on keeping on with their fake.

    EDIT: Wow, very fast. Their supplier replied, saying this:

    This is a reaction product that conforms to the US Natural flavor regulation. The source material for the starting ingredients used to make the finished good may be neroli oil or cane sugar.
    So, as neroli is far too expensive to be a source material, and the claim is "or sugar" this is actually a reaction product from sugar.

    Not "isolated from neroli" as claimed.

    Aftel's representative added "So we will add cane sugar to our stated source material on our website."

    So very good customer service in terms of reply. I will be interested to see if the website will be updated to be accurate. (I did not ask them to do so, not my business.)

    I won't be surprised if the claim Is changed to "isolated from neroli or sugar" which still won't be accurate if so, "reaction product of" is quite different from "isolated from," but oh well. At least it won't be wildly crazy as the neroli claim was.


    Wow. They got back to me and said:

    We agree with you about the neroli and have clarified the listing for it on our website as
    “derived from cane sugar”

    Thanks again very much!
    So, I am completely satisfied and very happy with the integrity they have showed and will be more than happy to buy from them in the future should the product and price match my needs.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 4th November 2019 at 08:11 PM.

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