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  1. #1

    Default Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    The title probably covers the general ask, and I might be too inexperienced to articulate it better with more words.

    I mention Cashmeran specifically, just because it's a common well-known one. So, research tells me 'Traces to 2%' is the maximum in fragrance concentration. This, taken in isolation, has made me pretty much unable to make anything 'Cashmeran-forward'. Does one need to pile on 98% of notes as transparently as possible? ( Mild sarcasm, there, I know one could find similar notes )

    I have a Mysore accord from creatingperfume that puts a max at 3%. At that concentration, I detect zero sandalwood in most blends.

    Oakmoss is probably another one, but there are probably a thousand threads talking about that whole debate.

    So, if you were going to be making a 'Molecule 01' style blend for Cashmeran, what would be the trick to staying within guidelines? Cashmeran + Kephalis maxed out come to 10%, now what?

    ( I mean, for personal use I'll load 'er up and decrease if there's skin irritation, but I'm talking about putting together something that is NOT for a careless person. )

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    If you want to stay within the ridiculous guidelines, then you have to find a way to make your accord compliant. Sometimes, you just can't do what you want to do.
    You must choose to compose something, that falls within those guidelines.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    If you want to stay within the ridiculous guidelines, then you have to find a way to make your accord compliant. Sometimes, you just can't do what you want to do.
    You must choose to compose something, that falls within those guidelines.
    I was concerned this might be one of the primary answers.

    On the plus side, Only I shall have access to my Oakmoss-Cashmeran Bomb, haha.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    One thing that makes the iso e super and similer mixes like ambroxan work is that they are really long lived notes. All of the ones you mentioned are pretty short lived. So one way to make it more forward would be to simply fill the formula with materials that will last longer. Yes you could do low odor things like salicylates, more woody things that match the kephalis, and more musky animalic things to match the cashmeran. You can also include iso e super and ambroxan and make something very personally you. As far as oakmoss goes you can supplement with evernyl and some ifra safe oakmoss abs.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Keep in mind that Cashmeran is in a closely related family, which also includes Kephalis, Safraleine, Iso E Super, and even Piconia (though that smells different, more arboreal). (Trimofix O also has a distant similarity in molecular structure as well)

    If you like the general sort of effects of Cashmeran, you may also like some of the others, even though their specific subtleties are very different.

    Also Nebulone is similar to Cashmeran, but much more on the musk side.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    Keep in mind that Cashmeran is in a closely related family, which also includes Kephalis, Safraleine, Iso E Super, and even Piconia (though that smells different, more arboreal). (Trimofix O also has a distant similarity in molecular structure as well)

    If you like the general sort of effects of Cashmeran, you may also like some of the others, even though their specific subtleties are very different.

    Also Nebulone is similar to Cashmeran, but much more on the musk side.
    I don't have Iso E, but I've been using a bunch of Timbersilk in that role, which I do like well enough -- Though more how it interacts with other things than standalone. I have Kephalis, though it's not quite as striking to my nose... From the descriptions, I wonder if there's a mild anosmia to it going on.

    Piconia keeps coming to my attention, guess I need to pick some up.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    It seems that there are many posts where there is confusion on how to interpret IFRA limits (for those choosing to do so.)

    Perfume to be applied to non-shaved skin falls under Category 4.

    (The 2% figure Travtex mentioned is only for Category 8, which is make-up removers other than face cleansers, non-spray hair styling aids, nail care, and all powders and talcs.)

    For Category 4 and Cashmeran, the limit for the finished product is 5.43%: https://ifrafragrance.org/standards/IFRA_STD48_0150.pdf

    Let's say your product is 20% concentrate and 80% perfumer's alcohol and any stabilizers etc.

    That means your concentrate is restricted to being "only" 27% Cashmeran.

    Which would be absurdly high. So in practice the restriction won't restrict any reasonable perfume formulation.

    This is quite different from thinking that the concentrate could be only 2%. It's true, someone might want to exceed that value. But that value is not the correct one for interpreting the restriction.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    It seems that there are many posts where there is confusion on how to interpret IFRA limits (for those choosing to do so.)

    Perfume to be applied to non-shaved skin falls under Category 4.

    (The 2% figure Travtex mentioned is only for Category 8, which is make-up removers other than face cleansers, non-spray hair styling aids, nail care, and all powders and talcs.)

    For Category 4 and Cashmeran, the limit for the finished product is 5.43%: https://ifrafragrance.org/standards/IFRA_STD48_0150.pdf

    Let's say your product is 20% concentrate and 80% perfumer's alcohol and any stabilizers etc.

    That means your concentrate is restricted to being "only" 27% Cashmeran.

    Which would be absurdly high. So in practice the restriction won't restrict any reasonable perfume formulation.

    This is quite different from thinking that the concentrate could be only 2%. It's true, someone might want to exceed that value. But that value is not the correct one for interpreting the restriction.

    (Where did the 2% come from, besides the possible confusion of thinking it applied to the concentrate rather than finished product? Perhaps from Category 8, which is the only category with that number. That category is for "Make-up removers of all types (not including face cleansers), hair styling aids non -spray of all types (mousse, gels, leave-in conditioners, etc), nail care, all powders and talcs including baby powders and talcs.")
    I think the Cashmeran example came from looking at PS and creating perfume's sites. Most of the time I'm looking for something explicit on TGSC's site. Cypress oil's entry, for instance, says, '2.0000 % in the fragrance concentrate.' Though it's listed as a Recommendation.

    And at the time I was having the general pondering, I was indeed thinking about 'in concentrate'.

    Now THAT one is a 'recommendation', of course, but it does bring about similar wonderings. Informative post, thanks!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Aside:

    That Category 3/4 bit reads sketchy, huh? Unshaved Skin versus Shaved Skin. "Hey, don't use this anywhere you've shaved."

  10. #10

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    I suppose there could be some ladies who shave their arms, let's say, yet like to apply some of their EdT there. But my guess is the manufacturers need not give the warning, only not sell it as an aftershave, etc.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by Travtex View Post
    I have Kephalis, though it's not quite as striking to my nose... From the descriptions, I wonder if there's a mild anosmia to it going on.
    Yes, very likely. This family has much stronger effects than their actual specific smells. I find that I develop anosmia quite quickly to several of them.
    Even a little faster than ionones, it seems in some cases.

    The first sniff, ideally in dilution, you'll smell something beautiful. The next sniff or two will be faint. After that you'll almost smell nothing at all. But if you pay attention very closely, you will feel something in your nose. A sort of "stuffiness", "musk", almost that's sort of blocking you from smelling things, yet greatly amplifying other types of things you might smell at the same time. It can take 3 to 15 minutes in fresh air before you are able to get a good smell of it again.
    Kephalis specifically is not even as bad as some of the others, in this respect. Cashmeran isn't too bad either.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    Yes, very likely. This family has much stronger effects than their actual specific smells. I find that I develop anosmia quite quickly to several of them.
    Even a little faster than ionones, it seems in some cases.

    The first sniff, ideally in dilution, you'll smell something beautiful. The next sniff or two will be faint. After that you'll almost smell nothing at all. But if you pay attention very closely, you will feel something in your nose. A sort of "stuffiness", "musk", almost that's sort of blocking you from smelling things, yet greatly amplifying other types of things you might smell at the same time. It can take 3 to 15 minutes in fresh air before you are able to get a good smell of it again.
    Kephalis specifically is not even as bad as some of the others, in this respect. Cashmeran isn't too bad either.
    I've got a few that are just hard to work with due to personal sensitivity/anosmia... I suppose everybody does.

    Animalis springs to mind. I love it, but just a touch and I can't seem to detect anything else in the blend.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    A question: Does anyone get a slight pencil shavings note from Cashmeran?

    If so, maybe Thymoquinone might be useful for extending that effect?
    (it's also found in Nigella sativa flower essence)

  14. #14

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by Travtex View Post
    Most of the time I'm looking for something explicit on TGSC's site. Cypress oil's entry, for instance, says, '2.0000 % in the fragrance concentrate.' Though it's listed as a Recommendation.
    TGSC is indispensable, but their information on IFRA restrictions is not always correct. I always just look it up directly here.

    When TGSC says 'recommended' that is not a safety guideline but only an aesthetic suggestion based on odour intensity.

    If you don't need to comply with IFRA but still want reasonable safety guidelines, Tisserand and Young's extensively-researched guide agrees with IFRA in some cases and suggests different limits in others. It covers both botanical ingredients and individual chemicals found in nature, but unfortunately not synthetics.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Boosting Cashmeran ( And other restricted notes )

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    TGSC is indispensable, but their information on IFRA restrictions is not always correct. I always just look it up directly here.

    When TGSC says 'recommended' that is not a safety guideline but only an aesthetic suggestion based on odour intensity.
    That last bit is intensely helpful to recognize, ha. I know my tastes lean more toward the 'splash around in the cade' side of aesthetic sensibility. I think I was conflating regulation and recommendation a bit in my brain.




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