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  1. #1

    Default have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    hi guys. so I know you might think that my post doesn't belong here, yet! yesterday I have been smelling around the Armani shop , the new collection ( those with the gold caps or the other marble colored like caps) Any way, been going back and forth over there just smelling those perfumes, for some reason they are very different than many other perfumes, second they feel to me like there is an ingridients inside that we ( I...) dont know and have no access to? is that possible? any know the AC that give that disticnt extra life for the scent?
    I remember the post a few days back about Edenolide. never smelled it, but I figure the industry has many AC that we can't put our hands on. am I right?
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  2. #2
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    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Yes.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3
    Basenotes Junkie Dmitriy's Avatar
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    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    hi guys. so I know you might think that my post doesn't belong here, yet! yesterday I have been smelling around the Armani shop , the new collection ( those with the gold caps or the other marble colored like caps) Any way, been going back and forth over there just smelling those perfumes, for some reason they are very different than many other perfumes, second they feel to me like there is an ingridients inside that we ( I...) dont know and have no access to? is that possible? any know the AC that give that disticnt extra life for the scent?
    I remember the post a few days back about Edenolide. never smelled it, but I figure the industry has many AC that we can't put our hands on. am I right?
    Probably you mean the exclusive perfume line "Armani Prive". Perfumery lines like this belong to a rather expensive price category and are created using more expensive (often natural) raw materials,more expensive rare synthetics and, accordingly, have compositions that are qualitatively different from the mass market products. And also, as Paul already said, of course, all perfume companies have a whole range of ingredients (captives) available for work only for the perfumers of this company.

  4. #4

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    do they have access to materials we don't have?
    My general opinion of these type of questions is it's not a clear simple yes or no answer, more like 80% no, 20% yes.

    These companies do have access to captives, and often times the fragrance is centered around one or two of those captives, but still, 75 to 95 percent of the ingredients in that fragrance are ones all perfumers have access to. The great smell is mainly a result of good perfuming, not as much access to captives.

    In many cases these captives are not really so different from other alternatives ordinary perfumers have access to, or not really that much better.
    In many cases a captive may just be a better way to replicate the smell of a natural but do so in a far more economical way. In that case, the captive may be important for them to mass produce a fragrance and keep costs down to a practical level, but not really necessary for an individual perfumer making their own fragrance.

    Sometimes there are exceptions and a fragrance cannot truly be exactly replicated without a specific captive. Knock offs that come quite close to the real thing can be made, but they will never smell quite as good as the original.


    I would say in general, about 85% of these captives are not really that novel, and are incremental improvements on something else.

  5. #5

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    wonder what Ruskin would have said about this. thanks for the answers
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  6. #6
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    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post
    And also, as Paul already said, of course, all perfume companies have a whole range of ingredients (captives) available for work only for the perfumers of this company.
    If even (One Man Company) PK Perfumes, with it's dedicated staff of one chemist, has captives reserved for use by the Perfumer/Chief Chemist/Beaker Washer/Trash removal Expert/Janitor, then every other big company has captives used for their perfumes, as employed by their Perfumers.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    If even (One Man Company) PK Perfumes, with it's dedicated staff of one chemist, has captives reserved for use by the Perfumer/Chief Chemist/Beaker Washer/Trash removal Expert/Janitor, then every other big company has captives used for their perfumes, as employed by their Perfumers.
    want to share anything about your captives Paul? do you mean bases , or you actually experimenting with the chemical proccess? I did distill my own oils at times, and made even a Jasmine absolute ( that didn't come out that well) but captives?
    hahah..."dedicated staff"
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  8. #8

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    For example:

    Armani Privé - Musc Shamal Giorgio Armani (2019) - with noreenal from V.Mane Fils (odor description: Aldehydic, mandarine, very powerful).
    Synthesis with a Rhodium catalyst and Xanthphos ligand from 5,7-dimethylocta-1,6-diene and syngas CO/H2 .
    [Plessis, Caroline. „The search for innovative fragrant molecules.“ Chemistry & biodiversity 5.6 (2008): 1083-1098]

    V. Mane Fils patent (2009) https://patents.google.com/patent/US7501536B2/en:
    „The invention also relates to the process of synthesis and to the use of this compound (1) as odorous agent by virtue of its fresh, orange peel and herbaceous notes with coriander leaf accents. Among the enantiomers of the compound (1), which are all targeted by the present invention, a particularly preferred compound is 6(R),8-dimethylnon-7-enal. The compound of formula (1) is prepared, according to the invention, by hydroformylation of 5,7-dimethylocta-1,6-diene…“

    Another captive from Mane is e.g. orcanox (an ambrox; in Sě Passione 2018).

  9. #9
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    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    want to share anything about your captives Paul? do you mean bases , or you actually experimenting with the chemical proccess? I did distill my own oils at times, and made even a Jasmine absolute ( that didn't come out that well) but captives?
    hahah..."dedicated staff"
    I am making single molecules, often quite large, through a Schiff Base making process. I'll be scheduling a class here this winter if you'd like to come for the weekend. It will be a start to finish Master class on the topic.

    Also,and interestingly, I am taking a little weekend class at the Art and Oflaction shop in Los Angeles, Biohacking Smells: Engineering Microbes to Create Synthetic Scents

    I'm hoping to learn some new tricks and technology to continue to make more captives for my own use.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Sounds amazing and fascinating. I m too far for show up just for a weekend. But when ill be back in california one day, ill give you a visit if i m invited :-) but please update us about this.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  11. #11

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I am making single molecules, often quite large, through a Schiff Base making process.
    One of the most common Schiff base synthetics is Aurantiol, commonly added in neroli/orange blossom accords.

    I think usually when combining two fragrance molecules through a Schiff base process, it creates a very characteristic and predictable type of transformation (in terms of odor profile), but in some cases there could be surprises.
    Also sometimes I think these Schiff bases can be created inadvertently when aldehydes are combined together with the ingredient methyl anthranilate in the fragrance. Many perfumers might not realize there is a chemical interaction there.

    The Good Scents page even quotes Arctander as saying: "It should therefore be kept in mind that when Methyl anthranilate is used in compositions with one or more of the named (or other) aldehydes and ketones, there is a good chance of chemical processes taking place in the perfume oil."
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1008211.html

  12. #12

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    So basicly you saying. Dont use methyl anthranilate with aldehydes and ketones?
    How does methyl anthanilate turns into auriantol? What triggers the schiff base?does it happen in more chemicals?

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    Last edited by refael_sakura; 9th November 2019 at 01:27 AM.
    Currently wearing: Y by Yves Saint Laurent

  13. #13
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    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    So basicly you saying. Dont used methyl anthranilate with aldehydes and ketones?
    How does methyl anthanilate turns into auriantol? What triggers the schiff base?does it happen in more chemicals?

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    Methyl Anthranilate, specifically, and any aldehyde will react, cold, in solution, by themselves, after blending, to make a new molecule, plus a water molecule.
    Sometimes also will react with Ketones, but much less takes place, and will likely react better/first, with an aldehyde.

    Just look up Aurantiol on TGSC to learn more.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by refael_sakura View Post
    So basicly you saying. Dont used methyl anthranilate with aldehydes and ketones?
    They can be used together, but it's complicated and beyond the scope of the discussion in this thread, unfortunately. (There are several things that should be considered, if combining them) In general it might be best to avoid combining purple grape notes or honeysuckle accord with aldehydes (including many other things like vanilla/cinnamon) if one is not familiar with the issue.
    There are several other threads in here that discuss the formation of Schiff bases.

  15. #15

    Default Re: have you smelled the new Armani perfumes? do they have access to materials we don't have?

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    They can be used together, but it's complicated and beyond the scope of the discussion in this thread, unfortunately. (There are several things that should be considered, if combining them) In general it might be best to avoid combining purple grape notes or honeysuckle accord with aldehydes (including many other things like vanilla/cinnamon) if one is not familiar with the issue.
    There are several other threads in here that discuss the formation of Schiff bases.
    Also, if you dilute the concentrate quickly, or you compound fragrances which are already diluted in ethanol -- this is unlikely to happen. The reaction proceeds very slowly in the presence of water if it happens to a significant degree at all.




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