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  1. #1

    Default Milk Lactone Solubility

    I'm wondering if anyone has experience working with milk lactone. Vigon's data sheet say that milk lactone is insoluble in alcohol and PG, but that it is somewhat soluble in essential oils. Can anyone offer me firsthand experience of how you went about this (as in, did you use a carrier oil or an aromatic essential oil)? And did you ever dilute your finished blend with alcohol or PG?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    You've looked over the page on TGSC for this?
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1037801.html

    Says soluble in Alcohol.
    (Not that either TGSC or Vigon are right all the time).
    But I dont recall any solubility in alcohol issues. My stock came from Bedoukian.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Thanks for the reply, Paul! I really appreciate what you do for this group.

    Is it common for companies to manufacture the same aromachemical in a way that alters its solubility this drastically? I had not referenced the Good Scents page, bu this is the page I was referring to: https://www.vigon.com/milk-lactone/

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    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizwaald View Post
    Thanks for the reply, Paul! I really appreciate what you do for this group.

    Is it common for companies to manufacture the same aromachemical in a way that alters its solubility this drastically? I had not referenced the Good Scents page, bu this is the page I was referring to: https://www.vigon.com/milk-lactone/
    I've seen the same item come as either solid, or liquid, from different suppliers. That of course, is not really related to differing solubility, just to illustrate differences.

    I do not have any Vigon version sample to test solubility for you. If you plan to buy this from Vigon, I'd call and ask your question, or get a sample. But solubility, even with this, might be solved by solving thoroughly mixed into the concentrate oils, before alcohol dilution.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    I'm pretty sure it would be soluble in alcohol. Maybe not completely miscible, but at least a small amount of it should be able to dissolve. (For dilution purposes you might have to dilute it down to 10 to 30 percent)

    Milk lactone has a very similar molecular structure to decanoic acid (synonym capric acid), which numerous sources say is soluble in ethanol.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I've seen the same item come as either solid, or liquid, from different suppliers.
    In rare instances, that could have to do with impurities.
    The melting point for decanoic acid is only 31.6 C, and I would expect for milk lactone it would be even less (due to the unsaturated bond). When the melting point of a compound is only very slightly above room temperature, very small amounts of impurities could substantially lower the melting point, making it a liquid at room temperature.

    The melting point could also vary depending on the ratio of isomers, in this situation. That would not be unlikely.

    So in this situation, I don't think it's all that surprising it would be described as a solid from some suppliers and a liquid from others.

    Indeed, if anyone wants to test this, I suspect that if someone obtained the solid form and added just a tiny bit of acetone to it, it would be able to turn the whole thing into liquid. Especially if the room temperature was above 30 C.
    (You might have to leave it sitting for a while)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    I'm pretty sure it would be soluble in alcohol. Maybe not completely miscible, but at least a small amount of it should be able to dissolve. (For dilution purposes you might have to dilute it down to 10 to 30 percent)

    Milk lactone has a very similar molecular structure to decanoic acid (synonym capric acid), which numerous sources say is soluble in ethanol.
    Interesting. I'm ignorant to much of the chemistry, but I did dilute it to 10%. It was cloudy and a bit of the milk lactone had sunk to the bottom of the solution.

    I did successfully blend it with butter C02 at a 1:3 ratio. Haven't gone any further yet...

    Thanks for the ideas!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    I would not use CO2 products, as some of them already have alcohol and perfume concentrate solubility issues, depending upon the material.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizwaald View Post
    I'm ignorant to much of the chemistry, but I did dilute it to 10%. It was cloudy and a bit of the milk lactone had sunk to the bottom of the solution.
    That suggests it is only partially soluble. I would stir it some more and warm/heat it just a little bit (especially if the ambient temperature in the room is cold), and let it sit a day or two and see if it all dissolves. If not, I would try diluting it further, maybe down to 5%. If there is any solid at the bottom not dissolving (even after it is so diluted) that suggests to me there might be impurities in the product. You can try removing those solids and, in a separate tube, try dissolving them in ethanol again. If the solid doesn't disappear, that would seem to indicate what's in that residue is not milk lactone.

    It's common for some of these long chain fatty acids to remain cloudy in liquid form, so that doesn't mean it hasn't all dissolved.

    Also, make sure you scrape the solid residue that hasn't dissolved off the bottom of the container, and try to crush and break apart any clumps as best you can, while it's in the alcohol.


    Personally, I feel Milk lactone is probably not the best ingredient to use if you want a milky or buttery feeling, though I have personally never smelled it. These long chain fatty acids, of this type, tend to have slightly stinky smells. (Good Scents lists "cheese" among of the fragrance descriptors for milk lactone) There might be other better substitutes if you want milky or buttery.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    That suggests it is only partially soluble. I would stir it some more and warm/heat it just a little bit (especially if the ambient temperature in the room is cold), and let it sit a day or two and see if it all dissolves. If not, I would try diluting it further, maybe down to 5%. If there is any solid at the bottom not dissolving (even after it is so diluted) that suggests to me there might be impurities in the product. You can try removing those solids and, in a separate tube, try dissolving them in ethanol again. If the solid doesn't disappear, that would seem to indicate what's in that residue is not milk lactone.

    It's common for some of these long chain fatty acids to remain cloudy in liquid form, so that doesn't mean it hasn't all dissolved.

    Also, make sure you scrape the solid residue that hasn't dissolved off the bottom of the container, and try to crush and break apart any clumps as best you can, while it's in the alcohol.


    Personally, I feel Milk lactone is probably not the best ingredient to use if you want a milky or buttery feeling, though I have personally never smelled it. These long chain fatty acids, of this type, tend to have slightly stinky smells. (Good Scents lists "cheese" among of the fragrance descriptors for milk lactone) There might be other better substitutes if you want milky or buttery.
    Thanks a million! I will try this right now.

    As far as milk lactone goes, it is actually ideal for my purposes... solubility notwithstanding. I am looking to make a boiled raw milk (from a cow) accord, and it is creamy/fatty/lactic without being too sweet. Plus, it doesn't have the coconut undertones that a lot of milky scents do.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Omg... "I haven't smelled it but I recommend not using it because (chemically-talk)." I am paraphrasing but that's the situation.

    Not to mention the other nonsense.

    Can there be a greater example of giving advice as if expert when in fact not knowing?

    Is it a compulsion?

    (The ignore function does not work on quoted material, so I was not spared.)

    Grizwaald, in some instances where a material has very low solubility, but then again the finished product needs a very modest concentration as well that is below the material's solubility limit, the difficulty can be solved by first dissolving in another material in your formula and then into the overall concentrate before diluting with alcohol. For example, if a formula is using Hedione anyway in much greater amount t than musk ketone, dissolving musk ketone into Hedione first can be a practical method. (Or benzyl benzoate. )

    As Paul works undiluted generally, he would automatically get this benefit.

    Simpler than what I described above, but not simpler than Paul's, would be to try greater dilution. I expect this material won't be used at really high concentration so if you can get 1:100 that could be usable enough. Worth trying.

    My milk lactone is the Bedoukian, I don't recall issues but I have not used in quite some while and may have added neat to other AC's rather than diluted. But I much more commonly dilute.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 11th November 2019 at 03:34 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Have you purchased and diluted Butter CO2?

    https://www.edenbotanicals.com/butter-co2.html
    https://www.sunrosearomatics.com/pro...o2-se-extract/
    https://www.creatingperfume.com/butterco2extract.aspx

    I would buy some of that, too, first, instead, and see if a dilution works out well for your task, before trying to buy some 5,6-Decenoic acid.

    But honestly, a Milk accord is going to be more than just material, like 5,6-decenoic acid. You are going to want a broader spectrum accord / base to hold that odor profile.
    I have a couple of finished milk, milky creamy accords/bases, now. And I have the Bedoukian Milk Lactone Super, the Butter CO2, and another dozen materials, in my "Milk" basket in my laboratory. Like, Butyl Butyro lactate, nonanoic acid, Sulfurol (milky), etc...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Omg... "I haven't smelled it but I recommend not using it because (chemically-talk)." I am paraphrasing but that's the situation.

    Not to mention the other nonsense.

    Can there be a greater example of giving advice as if expert when in fact not knowing?

    Is it a compulsion?

    (The ignore function does not work on quoted material, so I was not spared.)

    Grizwaald, in some instances where a material has very low solubility, but then again the finished product needs a very modest concentration as well that is below the material's solubility limit, the difficulty can be solved by first dissolving in another material in your formula and then into the overall concentrate before diluting with alcohol. For example, if a formula is using Hedione anyway in much greater amount t than musk ketone, dissolving musk ketone into Hedione first can be a practical method. (Or benzyl benzoate. )

    As Paul works undiluted generally, he would automatically get this benefit.

    Simpler than what I described above, but not simpler than Paul's, would be to try greater dilution. I expect this material won't be used at really high concentration so if you can get 1:100 that could be usable enough. Worth trying.

    My milk lactone is the Bedoukian, I don't recall issues but I have not used in quite some while and may have added neat to other AC's rather than diluted. But I much more commonly dilute.
    Thanks Bill! It is certainly usable enough at 5% dilution. But it makes me wonder about what kind of expectations I can have with suppliers. I come from a visual art background, and if, say I bought high end oil paint that had color separation from the pigments not being thoroughly incorporated into the oil medium, I would send it back to the manufacturer. But that doesn't seem to translate to the olfactory dimension.

    BTW, I think Bedoukian discontinued it milk lactone. At least according to Perfumer Supply House.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Have you purchased and diluted Butter CO2?

    https://www.edenbotanicals.com/butter-co2.html
    https://www.sunrosearomatics.com/pro...o2-se-extract/
    https://www.creatingperfume.com/butterco2extract.aspx

    I would buy some of that, too, first, instead, and see if a dilution works out well for your task, before trying to buy some 5,6-Decenoic acid.

    But honestly, a Milk accord is going to be more than just material, like 5,6-decenoic acid. You are going to want a broader spectrum accord / base to hold that odor profile.
    I have a couple of finished milk, milky creamy accords/bases, now. And I have the Bedoukian Milk Lactone Super, the Butter CO2, and another dozen materials, in my "Milk" basket in my laboratory. Like, Butyl Butyro lactate, nonanoic acid, Sulfurol (milky), etc...
    Paul, I do (from Eden and Creating Perfume). From what I can tell, ML mixed well into the Butter I got from Creating Perfume. I still need to do some due diligence with it before I declare it a success, but wanted to mention it for other who, down the road, might have the same questions I do...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Milk Lactone Solubility

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizwaald View Post
    Thanks Bill! It is certainly usable enough at 5% dilution. But it makes me wonder about what kind of expectations I can have with suppliers. I come from a visual art background, and if, say I bought high end oil paint that had color separation from the pigments not being thoroughly incorporated into the oil medium, I would send it back to the manufacturer. But that doesn't seem to translate to the olfactory dimension.

    BTW, I think Bedoukian discontinued it milk lactone. At least according to Perfumer Supply House.
    Well, sadly, solubility is often poorly measured and poorly discussed. Certainly the word "insoluble" was incorrect in the writeup you found.

    I like to say that at least in the United States the following terms should be used with these meanings, in terms of parts of solute to parts of solvent, as they are as defined by the USP:

    Very soluble: < 1

    Freely soluble: 1 - 10

    Soluble: 10 - 30

    Sparingly soluble: 30 - 100

    Slightly soluble: 100 - 1000

    Very slightly soluble: 1000 - 10,000

    Practically insoluble: > 10,000


    So if the solubility is 5%, which is one part in 20, they should have called that "soluble."

    But it's a lost cause expecting accurate descriptions of solubility from varying sources, I believe...

    Thank you for letting me know that on the Milk Lactone. Always a poor idea to do development work with materials that one may have but which can't be replaced, and that could have happened had you not posted that information.




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