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  1. #1

    Default Looking for Oud like sweetness

    I am working on a incense scent at the moment and I really like the sweetness Oud has especially the Cambodian/Thai varieties. But oud is a little too expensive to use in a perfume and I do not have enough to experiment with. All the commercial oud bases I have tried do not really have any sweetness to them at all. So I am looking for alternatives. Something that has a resinous sweetness.

    I am already using Labdanum and Benzoin in my scent. But the sweetness is not there yet and it is not the resinous sweetness I get from oud in the dry down. Vanilla, Maltol and the ilk do not work well for what I am trying to build.

    Are there any alternative you would suggest for a resinous sweetness?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Have you tried Isomohanol yet?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    I like to use bisabolene and elemnol. And really it's years later and I'm still impressed with the Black Agar base. Just used .5% in perfume and it was just right. Certainly changed and added that sweet woody oud character.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Raspberry ketone is used often in sweet oud fragrance, other is piperonyl acetate and dulcinyl but raspberry ketone is the best in this theme.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    for sweetness in Oud I would suggest Benzyl acetone, which not only occurs naturally in Oud, but is also very cheap. Although I have to add that the commercial qualities offered have an impurity which I don't like, so I re-distill it myself again.
    if you want sweetness mostly in the dry down it's probably not what you are looking for.
    It might sound too obvious, but many musks can of course give a type of sweetness as well and you certainly find plenty of synthetic musk in most Oud fragrances out there

  6. #6

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    Raspberry ketone is used often in sweet oud fragrance, other is piperonyl acetate and dulcinyl but raspberry ketone is the best in this theme.
    I agree. Actually Raspberry Ketone Methyl ether is found in natural Oud as well (= p-Methoxy Benzyl Acetone)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    Have you tried Isomohanol yet?
    Thanks for that, but unfortunately I am anosmic to most sandalwood aroma chems. I had the same problem with Isomohanol when I tried it initially. I will give it another try and see if I can smell it better now and I will try it in small amounts in an experiment and see how it turns out.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    I like to use bisabolene and elemnol. And really it's years later and I'm still impressed with the Black Agar base. Just used .5% in perfume and it was just right. Certainly changed and added that sweet woody oud character.
    I have the black agar base at around .2% in the perfume right now. I am using it more for shading and adding depth and modifying the oud I currently have in the scent. I checked elemnol but could not find it with any of the traditional suppliers, where did you get yours?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    Raspberry ketone is used often in sweet oud fragrance, other is piperonyl acetate and dulcinyl but raspberry ketone is the best in this theme.
    Thanks I did not think of Raspberry Ketone, let me give it a try and see how it goes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Timon View Post
    for sweetness in Oud I would suggest Benzyl acetone, which not only occurs naturally in Oud, but is also very cheap. Although I have to add that the commercial qualities offered have an impurity which I don't like, so I re-distill it myself again.
    if you want sweetness mostly in the dry down it's probably not what you are looking for.
    It might sound too obvious, but many musks can of course give a type of sweetness as well and you certainly find plenty of synthetic musk in most Oud fragrances out there
    Thanks for that, I noticed only Pell Wall seems to stock Benzyl acetone in small quanitites unfortunately their shipping is way too expensive, I will have to see if I can find it at an alternate source and give it a try. It does sound very interesting.

    I have a touch of Ambrettolide in the base along with more dirty musks like Muscenone and Civettone. But it still does not have the resinous sweetness in natural oud. I was just smelling Areej Le Dores Oud Picante and it has that nice resinous sweetness from natural oud and it is mixed in with musks and works really well, I am trying to recreate something like that. I have the musk part to my liking but I am not able to get the right kind of sweetness which is there in natural oud.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Benzoin?

    I order things from CC, consolidated chemicals in their website and Amazon.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    How about poplar bud absolute, Labdanum, Nagarmotha, spikenard, benzoin (Siam type)

    I don’t think any chemical concoction is going to do even a mediocre job hitting the sweetness of natural oud

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Simply by looking over GC results from Oudwood testing results, two that stick out for me as sweet are Benzaldehyde, and 4-Methoxybenzaldehyde.
    There are likely others there, but so many of the molecules in Oudwood are unfamiliar.

    Since this is not my project, and was a simple curiosity for me, I am going to stop doing your research for you...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Just a little bit of Cedryl methyl ether can add a little facet of "cotton candy" incense-like sweetness feeling, in addition to being ambery and having an edge of cedar dryness.

    You might also want to add very tiny slight hints of benzaldehyde (cherry accord) and vanillin, just to add a benzoin-like nuance.

    I personally find some oud to have a "bubblegum" like nuance to it.

    The components of "bubblegum" I looked up are mainly cherry, banana, and strawberry notes mixed together.

    And certainly some raspberry ketone should be used to add nuance to oud as well. I definitely seem to detect a tiny hint of that in sweet oud.

    Consider a hint of coumarin.

    Real oud also seems to have a very subtle almost grapefruit note, in my opinion. (I don't know how you could copy this, maybe methyl pamplemousse with vetikone might give some approximation)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    Benzoin?

    I order things from CC, consolidated chemicals in their website and Amazon.
    Thanks for that, I will check CC out hopefully the can deliver to me.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    How about poplar bud absolute, Labdanum, Nagarmotha, spikenard, benzoin (Siam type)

    I don’t think any chemical concoction is going to do even a mediocre job hitting the sweetness of natural oud
    Thanks for that, I do not have poplar bud absolute but it sounds interesting. Nagarmotha and spikenard are the wrong notes, they do not really have the sweetness I am looking for.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Simply by looking over GC results from Oudwood testing results, two that stick out for me as sweet are Benzaldehyde, and 4-Methoxybenzaldehyde.
    There are likely others there, but so many of the molecules in Oudwood are unfamiliar.

    Since this is not my project, and was a simple curiosity for me, I am going to stop doing your research for you...
    Thanks for looking that up. I checked a GCMS a while back but I do not have the vast majority of chems on hand and when I checked locally the people I contacted had very high minimum order quantities. Like I wanted Benzaldehyde for another project and they wanted me to order a minimum of 25kg, I could not finish that much in a life time.

    I know you probably buy aroma chems in much larger quantities but I was wondering where do you usually buy things like Benzaldehyde from? And do they sell in smaller quantities? (10-100gms max)

  18. #18

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    Just a little bit of Cedryl methyl ether can add a little facet of "cotton candy" incense-like sweetness feeling, in addition to being ambery and having an edge of cedar dryness.

    You might also want to add very tiny slight hints of benzaldehyde (cherry accord) and vanillin, just to add a benzoin-like nuance.

    I personally find some oud to have a "bubblegum" like nuance to it.

    The components of "bubblegum" I looked up are mainly cherry, banana, and strawberry notes mixed together.

    And certainly some raspberry ketone should be used to add nuance to oud as well. I definitely seem to detect a tiny hint of that in sweet oud.

    Consider a hint of coumarin.

    Real oud also seems to have a very subtle almost grapefruit note, in my opinion. (I don't know how you could copy this, maybe methyl pamplemousse with vetikone might give some approximation)
    I already have some cedramber in my scent, but that is more to support the cedar note I have going in the scent. I cannot say I have ever noticed a cotton candy note in cedramber.

    Curious I have never smelled a bubblegum note in Oud, But then there are so many types of Oud maybe there is a type with that note, with that said, I am not really looking for that note.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    To me there is almost a toffee caramel type note when Cambodian oud dries down. Have you considered caramel furfural or maple furanone? I have only just started using the latter and havent used maple furanone yet but it seems like they would be suitable for your requirement. Perhaps also a touch of isobutavan?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by needaname View Post
    I wanted Benzaldehyde
    Benzaldehyde is restricted, due to being a drug precursor.
    I have a supplier who knows and trusts me, so I filed DEA paperwork with them and they sent it out.
    I don't know of anyone who will sell you in small qty, because of the Federal DEA paperwork required.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Cherry fragrance accord is mostly benzaldehyde in scent.


    Quote Originally Posted by needaname View Post
    I already have some cedramber in my scent, but that is more to support the cedar note I have going in the scent. I cannot say I have ever noticed a cotton candy note in cedramber.

    Curious I have never smelled a bubblegum note in Oud,
    It's very subtle, and everyone uses different words in an attempt to describe specific aspects of smells. You may likely be smelling the same thing I am but you just do not perceive to be the same, in terms of how you cognitively classify it. I'm just saying there's a very slight "sweet" edge to it ("sweet" without being sugary sweet), a little "fruity" or "ethereal" (for lack of better descriptors), which for me is in the same sort of way as cotton candy or bubblegum.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    there are many many molecular differences in oud natural oils......but, best oud oil i've ever smelled (only 3 experience with different natural oud oils, too much money...;-), it had a raspberry-like sweetness scent...here, i described completely his scent profile ( italian langue) ..

    http://oliessenzialinaturali.blogspo...aquilaria.html
    Last edited by Geco; 15th November 2019 at 12:03 AM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Order bitter almond EO from Eden botanicals... take a look at the SDS and you'll see ~99% Benzaldehyde


  24. #24

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by amateurperfumer View Post
    To me there is almost a toffee caramel type note when Cambodian oud dries down. Have you considered caramel furfural or maple furanone? I have only just started using the latter and havent used maple furanone yet but it seems like they would be suitable for your requirement. Perhaps also a touch of isobutavan?
    Ya I also perceive that in some ouds especially the Cambodian like you said although I perceive it as slightly chocolatey. I have a touch of chocovan in the scent along with trace amounts of Strawberry Furanone. I unfortunately do not have caramel furfural or maple furanone.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Benzaldehyde is restricted, due to being a drug precursor.
    I have a supplier who knows and trusts me, so I filed DEA paperwork with them and they sent it out.
    I don't know of anyone who will sell you in small qty, because of the Federal DEA paperwork required.
    Thanks for that, that is interesting to know. No wonder it is so hard to find on American vendor sites.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by Geco View Post
    there are many many molecular differences in oud natural oils......but, best oud oil i've ever smelled (only 3 experience with different natural oud oils...;-), it had a raspberry-like sweetness scent...here, i described completely his scent profile ( italian langue) ..

    http://oliessenzialinaturali.blogspo...aquilaria.html
    Thanks that was an interesting read. I have not perceived a raspberry note till now in the Ouds I have smelled, but I have only smelled 4. But based on inputs from others I am trying Raspberry ketone in the scent to see how it works out.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    Order bitter almond EO from Eden botanicals... take a look at the SDS and you'll see ~99% Benzaldehyde
    Thanks I did not know that. I am adding bitter almond to my next order from Eden Botanicals.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by needaname View Post
    Thanks that was an interesting read. I have not perceived a raspberry note till now in the Ouds I have smelled, but I have only smelled 4. But based on inputs from others I am trying Raspberry ketone in the scent to see how it works out.
    Thank you. Yes, he had a part of that kind of sweetness, but its best part was wood / forest / bark, incredibly good, magic...

  29. #29

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    How about other balsams? such as peru balsam, styrax?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Looking for Oud like sweetness

    Quote Originally Posted by MezNez View Post
    How about other balsams? such as peru balsam, styrax?
    Star anise (molecule anethole) has some similarity to styrax (molecule styrene) but sweeter.

    Clove (molecule eugenol) is also a little bit towards this direction as well. A very tiny hint may help add a nuance to oud. (Though it might not be the specific type of sweetness you desire)

    Many of the balsams may complement oud quite nicely, but I don't think they can at all substitute for it. (I'm not an expert on balsams, however)




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