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  1. #1
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    Default Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    I really like Lyral, and have some formulas that need large doses that I want to work on.

    George Tedder makes a fair statement that he sees a lack, in those replacers out there, that they only take into account the odor profile, and not the performance, necessarily.
    So I thought that we could all discuss what we might have been doing that has failed or has had success...

    In another thread, several years ago, I Posted this formula sheet from IFF.
    I will post again, a slightly more readable version that I cleaned up in Photoshop:
    Lilia and Lyral Replacer Formulas ver 2.jpg

    Recently, I bought a Chanel No. 19 formula, and found it needed 10% of Lyral in the formula. I made a 10g formula trial sample, without the Lyral, and then split that into two 5g halves, and made one with 10% of the 5g with Lyral, and in the other, I tried an impromptu Lyral replacement. The Difference is clear, and the Lyral version is a lot better.
    I had forgotten my earlier work at making a lyral replacer formula, and so, didn't use it. I'll likely redo it, when we've had a bit more discussion here. I'm just not in a hurry to waste real Rose Abs, Otto, Jasmine Abs, and Neroli in a nothing experiment again until I have a better approach for Lyral.

    To discuss the IFF sheet, I never made those formulas. I did review them, and look for ideas, though.
    But my thoughts were that the materials chosen were very expensive and some difficult to obtain. And then, Other materials became available, like Lilyflore, Starfleur, and Hivernal Neo. I called Givaudan, and we are not likely to have Mahonial, in the forseeable future, so we can dismiss it.

    I've not yet worked much with Hivernal Neo, and my opinion about Starfleur is that it works better for Lilial, than it does Lyral. Go ahead and disagree, if you want to discuss it. So, I started to work mostly with lilyflore.

    Lyral Replacer 1 Formula pic.jpg

    This is my first serious trial.
    I have Lyral and the replacer on strips, pure, since last night.
    They are really close olfactively. They have tracked together pretty/really well, during the last 12 hours of development dryout.
    I would say that the replacer is a (little) weaker now, and maybe some alcohol needs to be removed, to be purely a replacer. As I remember, the alcohol was in there to bring the intensity down, and to allow the Lilyflore to dissolve, for this trial #1. Overall, not too bad of a first trial, I think. George Tedder remarked that he thought that Lilyflore was flat, in comparison to Lyral, and I think that was in reference to a straight up equivocation. I agree that they are different, hence the blending of materials to approximate Lyral altogether. I think that the last time I ran this comparison, as they aged, the replacer moved away from Lyral, and more towards Lilial/muguet. But I might be remembering poorly.

    Most of the time, I want to choose to use materials, for what they are, and not for what they are not. So, I use materials for their strengths, not for their weaknesses.
    But in some cases, I want to emulate virtues of materials that are not available or usable too, this is one of those cases.

    To get back to my Chanel No. 19 substitution trial, this is what I used, to make up that 10% of Lyral replacement. So this would be 2 parts + 4 parts + 4 parts, of that 10% amount.
    Florhydral 2.0
    Hydroxycitronellal Dimethyl Acetal 4.0
    Lilyflore 4.0

    - Not SO dissimilar to my replacer trial #1, but different indeed.

    There you have my thoughts and formulas... What do YOU think!?

    - PK

    PS, if anyone wants any PK Perfumes products, for the next 10 days til Dec 7th, pkcyber30 gets you 30% off.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Oh, and has anyone tried Chris Bartlett's replacer?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    A material that in some blends might reproduce some of the Lyral's radiancy is Floral Super. If used sparingly with other muguet/citrus aldehydes it seems to do the job just fine. The exercise here would be to reproduce Eau du Soir by Sisley using traces of Floral Super with sketchy amber, aldehydes and radiant musks.
    In general, replacing Lyral in existing formulas appears to depend quite a lot on what other ingredients are used.
    All sorts of replacers should work where its generic muguet-like floralcy is required. The real problem is to replace Lyral's unmatched radiancy in some aromatic fougeres and chypres.
    The workaround I used in one of my blends was to replace Lyral-patchouly-Okoumal combination by Lilyflore-patchouly/clearwood-Ambermax/Okoumal combination. I also increased the amount of peach molecules in the blend.
    In another blend, one having quite some coumarin in it, adding other muguet materials together with extra green/aquatic notes not present before, seems to have worked.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    A material that in some blends might reproduce some of the Lyral's radiancy is Floral Super.
    Interesting... I don't think I have Floral Super yet...
    But it seems to have a shorter lifespan, though.
    Have you noticed this?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    For the floral citronella/Lily of the Valley feel, a little bit of Rhodinol 70 can help extend things.
    anisaldehyde can give some nebulous feeling of lilac, though it's also a bit of anise as well.
    I'm not saying these are replacers but they might be able to help extend the effect of Lyral.

    There's also cyclomethylene citronellol (citrus propanol).
    Last edited by parker25mv; 30th November 2019 at 06:00 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    What do you think of Majantol? I think of it as more lily than muguet.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Do you guys still recommend using Lyral in personal blends or should one begin finding sustainable alternatives?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by SharpLess View Post
    Do you guys still recommend using Lyral in personal blends or should one begin finding sustainable alternatives?
    I think that you only need to worry about Lyral if you show allergic dermal reactions. Only a small number of people are allergic.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    What do you think of Majantol? I think of it as more lily than muguet.
    Yes, I agree, more lily than Lyral. Lilial is easier to replace than Lyral.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I think that you only need to worry about Lyral if you show allergic dermal reactions. Only a small number of people are allergic.
    I'm pretty sensitive. My skin even breaks out in itchy bumps if I use completely natural laundry detergent that has added lavender oil for fragrance. (Although I'm okay with some others that only have lavender as a very minor ingredient in the fragrance)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Floral Super lasts nowhere near as long as Lyral. It is also much louder than most muguet materials so it can't be used frivolously. Then again, it adds plenty of radiance to aromatic spicy/ambery middle notes. I adore Lyral's relentlessness; it lingers like, pardon the expression, a memory of something joyful. But this effect can be achieved with other long lasting muguet materials.

    As for Majantol, I used it at 0,8% together with Veloutone at 0,4% to replace Lyral at 0,1% in a linden blossom fragrance containing also Meijiff, cyclamen aldehyde and Florhydral. Not really the same odour but the idea was to recreate the somewhat nostalgic mood. for which I initially used the lingering quality of Lyral. The composition improved actually.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Paul,

    Do you know how old the No.19 formula is? It’s interesting you mention lyral — because I’ve heard of that being used along with massive quantities of Egyptian jasmine. But I’ve never gotten my hands in a vintage. I only know the modern one (which I adore), which is surly still an expensive fragrance, and which contains no lyral (it’s missing from the EU label).

    I agree lyral is harder to get than lilial. I would base my personal replacer off floriffol, cyclamal, and maybe a touch of liliiflore, maybe cuminaldehyde and nonadienol. Cyclamax is interesting but I hate it. Musks could be useful. The tenacity is particularly hard to match. I have smelled some of the IFF replacers. And they are ok; but, in laundry wash for example, they just don’t perform. There is nothing else which matches it’s current tenacity. Save maybe some captives unavailable to the public.

    I would try to simply approximate the odor as close as possible. In FF you can get fixative qualities from other materials. Replacing lyral for No.19 in this instance would be less difficult than in a tide formula, for example (at lest I imagine so).

  13. #13

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    I'm pretty sensitive. My skin even breaks out in itchy bumps if I use completely natural laundry detergent that has added lavender oil for fragrance. (Although I'm okay with some others that only have lavender as a very minor ingredient in the fragrance)
    Honestly lavender doesn’t last last past wet in a wash. So I don’t know what you’re reacting to — but it isn’t lavender oil (or a synthetic recreation thereof).

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    The most similar ( but not the same) is mixture: hedione/hedioneHC+myrac aldehyde+majantol.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    very interesting talk going on here!
    so far, i didnt explicitly work on a lyral replacer, but while playing with biocyclamol to acquaint myself with its properties and potentials, i found that it shows a lot of potential to approach lyral in combination with silvanone supra. this accord would of course need quite some more additional items for replacing lyral, but it did seem very promising to me.

    in general, I <3 biocylamol! what an outstanding ingredient! wohoo!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by George Tedder View Post
    Paul, Do you know how old the No.19 formula is? with massive quantities of Egyptian jasmine.
    The formula is likely a bit newer, likely from the 70's - 90's I would guess. Looking at this version, I can see that the original Jasmine absolute content was likely about 4.5 - 5%.
    Now in this formula, The real Jasmine Abs is at 0.1%, Jasmine Absolute replacer is at 2.9%, and Benzyl Acetate is at 1.5%.

    I had never seen a No. 19 formula, and couldn't find a free one easily, so I bought one. I've lately been working on several green type scents, and wondered what Chanel No. 19 was like.

    What is also impressive is that the formula also contains another 2.75% of real rose extraction. (plus another 10% of rose molecules...)
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    ah lyral, very very good, without substitutes, like many other (musk ketone , etc.) ... years ago I tried to replace it,...many attempts, but I was only gone close, not easy, then I left ... I used approximately same ingredients of paul, apart from the simple hydroxycitronellal and a small touch of cyclamin aldheide and a drop of florosa.. ..but I'm going from memory....

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    The formula is likely a bit newer, likely from the 70's - 90's I would guess. Looking at this version, I can see that the original Jasmine absolute content was likely about 4.5 - 5%.
    Now in this formula, The real Jasmine Abs is at 0.1%, Jasmine Absolute replacer is at 2.9%, and Benzyl Acetate is at 1.5%.

    I had never seen a No. 19 formula, and couldn't find a free one easily, so I bought one. I've lately been working on several green type scents, and wondered what Chanel No. 19 was like.

    What is also impressive is that the formula also contains another 2.75% of real rose extraction. (plus another 10% of rose molecules...)
    Thanks for the insights. This fragrance is really gorgeous. Haven't tried recreating it myself, but I think it is worth a shot. Really beautiful.

    Back to the substitutes for lyral, I assume hydroxycitronellal is what was used to make the modern one (as this is what one reads on the box). So I think what you have said is quite appropriate for this fragrance. MOC as well -- could be there to support the violet leaf, or as part of a replacement as well. Interesting to look at. Maybe even some HCA for the tenacity.

    Let us know how the results go!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    This is very difficult to replace. For me lyral has long lasting diffusive characteric ,,luminous" note similar to hedione for me. This is jasminey character, slighty waxy but, very luminous, fresh and characteric ,,dense" and ,,artificial" like cartoon. Dior Hypnotic Poison contain lyral. I wonder what can be replaced there. I think about this mixture of hedione HC+majantol+myrac aldehyde, but hydroxycitronellal is the most similar single molecule to lyral for me. Maybe hedione HC+hydroxycitronellal+majantol+myrac aldehyde is good?
    Lyral is very important also Joop Homme and Joop Femme, this perfumes appear to impossible to lyral replacing. Drydown smell very pronounced the most characteric effect of lyral- luminous ,,jasminey" notes, especially with anthranilates, lyral produce very diffusive jasmine sillage.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    perhaps, even a trace of splendione can help?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Now at about 40 hours of dryout, testing my two blotters of Lyral and replacer, the replacer and the lyral still have very very close odor profiles. The replacer is a little more voluminous/loud.
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Yet another Lyral's quality. No matter how "demeter" the blend is, adding Lyral to it somehow transforms it into a fragrance. And that to a degree of vulgarity of a laundry product. Which I find adorable. This function of Lyral in fruity blends can be achieved by enhancing a Lyral replacer with heliotropyl acetate.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by pavomi View Post
    in general, I <3 biocylamol! what an outstanding ingredient! wohoo!
    What is your experience for longevity?
    TGSC says 24 hours. Takasago says 5 weeks.
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    I have not tried this but given what the product sheet has to say I'm betting 2 weeks on the strip minimum.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    What is your experience for longevity?
    TGSC says 24 hours. Takasago says 5 weeks.
    undiluted on blotter way longer than a month.
    and honestly, it took me some time to grasp its aroma. it appears rather mild, but has very noticeable impact even at low levels around 2%.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    IFF came out with a new molecule called Aquaflora. looks interesting
    https://www.iff.com/~/media/Files/I/.../aquaflora.pdf

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    Aquaflora is nice and powerful but I doubt it could help replace Lyral. Both are floral but whereas Aquaflor is intensely organic, Lyral is kevlar-fibre synthetic. Aquaflor could easily replace cucumber aldehyde in linden blossom or some such.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Lyral Replacer formula - Let's talk about our choices and formulas

    I think this thread is a good place to ask:

    if i'am using substitutes (compounded or same a base) and dilutes in trace amounts, does not risk to lose their effect ?
    'Freshness' is the word, nothing more --- be cool
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