Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 20 of 20
o
  1. #1

    Default What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Hello,

    I have a blend which contains ~46% of naturals, and after the first month of maceration, I noticed a harsh note, quite medicinal but something really smelling bad... like a blend between medication and dust... So I fall in the beginner's loop by adding some compound everytime in a hope to "mask" this bad smell... but no... after a few weeks of maceration this dusty medicinal smell emerges from the abyss to say hello again...

    I noticed that after a few hours this note is almost gone, but I can smell traces of it on the smell strip after few days...

    Is it what we call "MUD" smell? as a beginner, I wonder what is the bad "MUD" smell is like? how can I differentiate it from the "medicinal" vibes a perfume can have from using some naturals?

    Thank in advance for any help

  2. #2

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Please take this only for what it's worth, it's personal opinion only:

    I have come to believe that when the nose does not know what to make of the things it is taking in, then it makes a "guess" for you of some sort.

    And for some reason, two common guesses that the nose comes to when it can't make out a mess of things are "mud" and "soap."

    Early on in my perfuming it was amazing how many completely different mixtures smelled exactly the same: "soap" in most cases where synthetics were involved, "mud" in most cases with essential oils.

    As one becomes more experienced the nose can make out more and more things within these poor and confusing mixtures so they may not smell to oneself like mud or soap anymore, but they might to the average person.

    To summarize, my belief is that these "mud" or "soap" characterizations are not anything real within the mixture but are a result of the nose or brain being confused by the inharmonious mess.

    So it is not that there is anything in particular that you have to take out. Rather, you need a better balance.

    Commonly, because beginners (usually) have relatively few materials and (usually) are trying to keep their efforts simple, their formulas may have only say 5 or 10 ingredients, if that.

    Inevitably, that means that the ingredients will then average 20% (if 5 of them) or 10% (if 10 of them) of the formula.

    For many materials that is WAY too much. To seem like a perfume, very many and probably most materials cannot stand being more than perhaps 5% of a formula and often should be only 1% or even less.

    That's not to say that nice-smelling simple mixtures cannot be made. But it is saying that it is very easy for them to be relatively too heavy in some ingredients and the nose does not know what to make of the mess.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Please take this only for what it's worth, it's personal opinion only:

    I have come to believe that when the nose does not know what to make of the things it is taking in, then it makes a "guess" for you of some sort.

    And for some reason, two common guesses that the nose comes to when it can't make out a mess of things are "mud" and "soap."

    Early on in my perfuming it was amazing how many completely different mixtures smelled exactly the same: "soap" in most cases where synthetics were involved, "mud" in most cases with essential oils.

    As one becomes more experienced the nose can make out more and more things within these poor and confusing mixtures so they may not smell to oneself like mud or soap anymore, but they might to the average person.

    To summarize, my belief is that these "mud" or "soap" characterizations are not anything real within the mixture but are a result of the nose or brain being confused by the inharmonious mess.

    So it is not that there is anything in particular that you have to take out. Rather, you need a better balance.

    Commonly, because beginners (usually) have relatively few materials and (usually) are trying to keep their efforts simple, their formulas may have only say 5 or 10 ingredients, if that.

    Inevitably, that means that the ingredients will then average 20% (if 5 of them) or 10% (if 10 of them) of the formula.

    For many materials that is WAY too much. To seem like a perfume, very many and probably most materials cannot stand being more than perhaps 5% of a formula and often should be only 1% or even less.

    That's not to say that nice-smelling simple mixtures cannot be made. But it is saying that it is very easy for them to be relatively too heavy in some ingredients and the nose does not know what to make of the mess.
    Very very interessting, thank you !
    Actualy I noticed that my blend can smell very differente in the same day (fresh sample for every sniff), and I was wondering if my nose is playing games with me...
    Well my blend is not balanced for sure, as I noticed "holes" in the composition late in the maceration process... I need more knowledge and training for sure...
    For information, I used actualy over 53 compounds (bases included), it's quite a chypra fruity/floral with a base of musky ambery incence and oud with a hint of yuzu and grapefruit boosted by oranger flower absolute which will last till end
    I used a lot of synthetics musks actualy

  4. #4

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Buy some things like salicylates, benzyl benzoate, helional. Low odor items that give "space" in a composition. It will make efforts go better!

    So with mix smelling different It's true the nose can get fatigued and then smell something different. You can play with this on purpose to do scent matching etc. Noses also work better in the morning so as the day goes on it's normal for it to smell different. It's even normal for your nose to work different or be fatigued from one day to the next.

    It's why I say to make only small changes to a formula every day. 2% and make them the best effort you can. That means that on average it will take you a month and a half to make a perfume and really that is the minimum. Professionals can work on something for a year!

    Juggling multiple compounds takes a lot of experience and also a lot of dilution or a really good scale. Make sure that every ingredient is in there in the appropriate amount down to 1/10th of a gram at least. I recommend blending practice with a smaller number of ingredients. 5 or 9 etc. It's amazing what can be created when you really understand your materials and they are well balanced. Work on making accords or concepts as building blocks that are able to keep being used.

    Also, it's quite important to have a really solid concept in mind to keep it from meandering. For myself, I find the concept stated here too complicated and hard to imagine and in some ways opposed to each other. Chypre fruity floral musky amber incense oud yuzu grapefruit orange flower. Try making a really solid yuzu, grapefruit, orange flower. Or a solid oud incense. Or fruity amber, or floral musk. Or a solid chypre all by itself which is complicated enough.

    I'm glad for the use of musks but also beware that professionals have used musks to illustrate the concepts of emptiness, white, noise, and opacity. So even then you have to learn them and use them in appropriate amounts.

    Change the workflow so that dusty smells aren't a surprise. Combine base notes or all middle notes to see where the problem comes in. Dilute top notes to 10% and try various mixes where one thing is left out. Or making accords of 3 items and then mixing the accords. It will be illuminating what is learned from various approaches!

  5. #5

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Great advices, thank you very much!!
    I agree, the idea of this blend is nomore clear in my mind because of the "improvisation" I have done trying to mask the "mud" smell... so I completly lost the main idea i had which was prety simple in the beginning.
    Well, I will put this juice in a 1L bottle which will be the container of may be the 1000 fleurs
    I will start working on a base accord, a dark ambery woody base accord, what comes in my mind is:

    norlimbanol
    ambreine
    ambranum
    labdanum
    olibanum coeur
    cedarwood EO
    vetiver EO or Vetiverol
    patchouli EO or CO2
    vanillin
    ethyl vanillin
    Propenyl Guaethol
    vanilla absolute
    Safraleine
    touch of hyraceum
    and may be a touch of an oud base (firmenich..)

    I often tend to complicate myself, can you tell me if this compounds sounds good for a "simple" base accord?

    Thank you

  6. #6
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,816

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    "mud", vs. the smell of mud, is a term that I might have coined, but maybe I didn't. Hard to remember that far back.

    What "I" mean by it is that it is very easy to do with all natural perfumes, when you put in too many materials, and the aggregate smell is way too much, and it comes out with a particular smell. I do smell it often, from young all natural perfumers, when they send me samples to smell. It just comes from too many things in the soup.

    For all natural fragrances, try to think about making your fragrances have at least 5% of each material, certainly more is fine too.
    But because naturals already have a boatload of molecules in them, using tiny amounts of a lot of natural materials is too much. Try to use larger percentages, and balance better, as Bill mentions.

    Yes, it's ok, for a few materials to use in smaller doses. But if the majority of your fragrances use the naturals between 5-20% of your formula, then you won't turn your all natural scents into mud quite so easily.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    "mud", vs. the smell of mud, is a term that I might have coined, but maybe I didn't. Hard to remember that far back.

    What "I" mean by it is that it is very easy to do with all natural perfumes, when you put in too many materials, and the aggregate smell is way too much, and it comes out with a particular smell. I do smell it often, from young all natural perfumers, when they send me samples to smell. It just comes from too many things in the soup.

    For all natural fragrances, try to think about making your fragrances have at least 5% of each material, certainly more is fine too.
    But because naturals already have a boatload of molecules in them, using tiny amounts of a lot of natural materials is too much. Try to use larger percentages, and balance better, as Bill mentions.

    Yes, it's ok, for a few materials to use in smaller doses. But if the majority of your fragrances use the naturals between 5-20% of your formula, then you won't turn your all natural scents into mud quite so easily.
    Great, I have learned a lot today, thank you very much!
    That is the case in my blend, a lot of naturals, but in small amounts... actually I was "trying" to use the theory of "impact" and "power" I have seen in the perfumersworlds videos, but now I knew that there are far more parameters to take in, and I'm still in the beginning...
    what a great community, all love and respect!!! thanks

  8. #8
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,816

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Perfumersworld videos. Take them cum grano solis.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Mud is something every perfumer must walk through miles of before approaching anything resembling a pleasant 3 dimensional fragrance. I'm still trouncing through mud but progress is being made!

  10. #10
    Basenotes Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    In a imaginative idyllic place
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    availing the question, what is custard note/scent ? that appears to be bad smell, tgsc make reference to this, recommending heliotropin and anisyl alcohol to remove that note. I think i made this recently, a terrible scent thats made my teeth hurt because much sweetness
    'Freshness' is the word, nothing more --- be cool
    Currently wearing: Tai Winds by Avon

  11. #11
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,816

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    If you have "custard", you should look at the formula for too much sweetness, maltol, and fatty notes/lactose, me thinks.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  12. #12

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    The best advice I heard and apply to my efforts is working on separate small accords like puzzle pieces and try to fit them together once they all smell how you want them, then you can make further changes as to how these pieces might fit better together. No need to blend them together just put them on scent strips and slowly take in the scent as a whole.

  13. #13
    Super Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    135

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by apolo085 View Post
    I will start working on a base accord, a dark ambery woody base accord, what comes in my mind is:

    norlimbanol
    ambreine
    ambranum
    labdanum
    olibanum coeur
    cedarwood EO
    vetiver EO or Vetiverol
    patchouli EO or CO2
    vanillin
    ethyl vanillin
    Propenyl Guaethol
    vanilla absolute
    Safraleine
    touch of hyraceum
    and may be a touch of an oud base (firmenich..)

    I often tend to complicate myself, can you tell me if this compounds sounds good for a "simple" base accord?
    Perhaps you might start by making a far more basic amber base with just Labdanum, vanillin and benzoin. Then you could use that base to go in whatever direction you desire: patchouli or leather or oud, woody or green or an incense direction -- and so on. IMO, by putting all of those materials in your list into one base, you will be have a complicated base (many directions all at once) rather than having one that is a starting point from which to build. Just a thought!

  14. #14

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanaB View Post
    Perhaps you might start by making a far more basic amber base with just Labdanum, vanillin and benzoin. Then you could use that base to go in whatever direction you desire: patchouli or leather or oud, woody or green or an incense direction -- and so on. IMO, by putting all of those materials in your list into one base, you will be have a complicated base (many directions all at once) rather than having one that is a starting point from which to build. Just a thought!
    Very clever advice, thanks
    Building the core of the base then twist it as suited, got it

  15. #15

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharpLess View Post
    The best advice I heard and apply to my efforts is working on separate small accords like puzzle pieces and try to fit them together once they all smell how you want them, then you can make further changes as to how these pieces might fit better together. No need to blend them together just put them on scent strips and slowly take in the scent as a whole.
    That's my new goal, thanks

  16. #16

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    If you have "custard", you should look at the formula for too much sweetness, maltol, and fatty notes/lactose, me thinks.
    I don't think I can describe it as having a custard note as the sweetness is quite ok to my nose.
    Funny thing, this mud note I got is 70% similar of that bad dustiness note I have smelled in Tauer's TUBEROSE SOTTO LA LUNA... quite off-putting..
    Is that mean that Tauer got a "mud" note on this??!

  17. #17
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    8,816

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    I don't think I have any of Andy's Tuberose, to make a comment for you. (He REALLY likes Vanilla, where I do not, so I don't often test his works). I met him once in Los Angeles, wonderful guy.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  18. #18

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Absolutely, very nice and humble person and I like his incense rosée very very much ! My black suit and red tie perfume !

    I read that you developed many tuberose accords (waiting for sales in PSH ) so I wanted your opinion on this, because it is a really really dusty tuberose, like smelling the flower in a handful of dry highway dust... I don't think this kind of note can be intended by any perfumer.

    By the way, I included your vanilla absolute replacer in my current PSH's order, very exited to smell this one ^^

  19. #19

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I don't think I have any of Andy's Tuberose, to make a comment for you. (He REALLY likes Vanilla, where I do not, so I don't often test his works). I met him once in Los Angeles, wonderful guy.
    Absolutely, very nice and humble person and I like his incense rosée very very much ! My black suit and red tie perfume !

    I read that you developed many tuberose accords (waiting for sales in PSH ) so I wanted your opinion on this, because it is a really really dusty tuberose, like smelling the flower in a handful of dry highway dust... I don't think this kind of note can be intended by any perfumer.

    By the way, I included your vanilla absolute replacer in my current PSH order, very exited to smell this one ^^
    Last edited by apolo085; 3rd December 2019 at 07:07 AM.

  20. #20
    Basenotes Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    In a imaginative idyllic place
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: What is a "MUD" bad smell ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    If you have "custard", you should look at the formula for too much sweetness, maltol, and fatty notes/lactose, me thinks.
    Thanks PK you're ever very attentious. For now I will be careful with these.
    'Freshness' is the word, nothing more --- be cool
    Currently wearing: Tai Winds by Avon




Similar Threads

  1. are there notes you find smell "cheap" or "synthetic"?
    By thrilledchilled in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 30th December 2018, 06:16 PM
  2. What does a "textbook" "typical" chypre smell like?
    By the blood on 530 27 in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 7th August 2018, 08:49 AM
  3. Favorite "smell good"/"safe"/"blind buy" scent?
    By tommygunz in forum Just Starting Out
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: 5th May 2013, 10:06 AM
  4. Do "must" fragrances smell "musty"?
    By Strange Accord in forum Female Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 28th May 2006, 05:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000