tuberose and iris

[Accordoluna]

Hi everyone
I need some information about tuberose and iris accord!
I really love Iris Poudre and Carnal Flower by Frederic Malle.
Do you have any Formula recommendation?
Thank you

[pkiler]

I am not an Iris expert, so I can't help you there.

Building tuberose has been an obsession with me, so I have done loads of research, and built my own bases.

Carnal Flower uses a Firmenich base, Tubereuse 41286. But there is probably a new replacement for it, so check with Firmenich or your Firm supplier.
Even better, and 4X expensive is the Firmenich Tuberose 95711 base.
I'm thinking of placing one of my Tuberose bases at PSH this next year.

[Pharmacist_Blender]

I am not an Iris expert, so I can't help you there.

Building tuberose has been an obsession with me, so I have done loads of research, and built my own bases.

Carnal Flower uses a Firmenich base, Tubereuse 41286. But there is probably a new replacement for it, so check with Firmenich or your Firm supplier.
Even better, and 4X expensive is the Firmenich Tuberose 95711 base.
I'm thinking of placing one of my Tuberose bases at PSH this next year.

I have a sample of Heaven Fresh (Last year for Christmas I got your sample pack). I just put it on and my roommate walked in and said "What did you put on? It smells just like Tuberose we have in India!" It's BRIGHT and FRESH tuberose. Out of the sample pack it's tied with Starry Starry night as my favorite. One of those two will be on my Christmas list this year for a full bottle.

[pkiler]

I have a sample of Heaven Fresh (Last year for Christmas I got your sample pack). I just put it on and my roommate walked in and said "What did you put on? It smells just like Tuberose we have in India!" It's BRIGHT and FRESH tuberose. Out of the sample pack it's tied with Starry Starry night as my favorite. One of those two will be on my Christmas list this year for a full bottle.

Thanks! :-) I started calling it Santal Fresh, wanting a fresh Sandalwood scent. It is that, but it morphed/became much more floral.
I really love to spray my pillow with this one, and it lasts several days on the pillow.
Yes, Heaven Fresh contains bright fresh Tuberose, Sandalwood materials, and other fresh greens, and florals... :-)

[Bill Roberts]

A little late to the party:

As Paul mentioned Firmenich makes some excellent tuberose bases. They do not smell identical to natural tuberose absolute, but they smell very PERFUME tuberose. If anything they are likely "better" (more fitting with what is expected anyway) for tuberose notes in modern perfumes than the naturals. I do love a fine tuberose absolute or concrete though.

I don't have experience with the particular bases Paul mentions however. I have Tubereuse 184108 and Tubereuse 041286 (not sure that that one is still available.) Can't go wrong with either IMO.

I don't know whether 184108 compares with the lesser or the more expensive Firmenich bases that Paul mentoned. I'm not now seeing Vigon selling either number he mentioned, nor Ventos.

For what is called "iris" notes by perfume sales-weasels and keyboard pounders, so far as I know this really means orris, which is iris root.

Two great materials for this are alpha-irone and Iralia (or other n-methyl ionone, but I think Iralia is the best.)

If the money is available, Eden Botanicals orris 15% irones is wonderful.

I try to keep in mind that my own lack of particular success with given materials proves nothing when there are real perfumers who find that same material very useful, other than perhaps proves I didn't do as I should or I picked the wrong application, so I should say that at least one Perfumer here (I ninety-percent think Chris Bartlett, but if I am wrong on that then David Ruskin) has recommend Orris Givco quite highly. While I much prefer the natural, the Givco certainly provides familiar "perfume" orris, aka iris.

[George Tedder]

Carnal Flower uses a Firmenich base, Tubereuse 41286..

Out of curiosity, where did you hear this?

[pkiler]

Out of curiosity, where did you hear this?

I didn't need to see or hear it, I can smell it in there... I became quite familiar with both the fragrance, and the base, and know each other very well, by scent, and I can smell the base in the scent. :-) I use this base in my own work, and bought a kilogram of it for my own works. Plainly there is more in Carnal Flower than just that Firmenich base, but I can certainly smell the base in Carnal Flower.

[pkiler]

has recommend Orris Givco quite highly. While I much prefer the natural, the Givco certainly provides familiar "perfume" orris, aka iris.

I like the Orris Givco, for it's Disneyfied profile, but have not yet employed it. But I was gifted a kilogram of it, so I'd better start using it! :-)

[kouros94]

I didn't need to see or hear it, I can smell it in there... I became quite familiar with both the fragrance, and the base, and know each other very well, by scent, and I can smell the base in the scent. :-) I use this base in my own work, and bought a kilogram of it for my own works. Plainly there is more in Carnal Flower than just that Firmenich base, but I can certainly smell the base in Carnal Flower.

With all respect, I can vouch for their not being any of Firmenich's base in the formula of Carnal Flower, and this is coming from a credible source. That being said, I have not personally smelled this base, and it is more than possible that one smells similar to the other.

[pkiler]

with all respect, i can vouch for their not being any of firmenich's base in the formula of carnal flower, and this is coming from a credible source. That being said, i have not personally smelled this base, and it is more than possible that one smells similar to the other.

ok
-------------

[George Tedder]

I didn't need to see or hear it, I can smell it in there... I became quite familiar with both the fragrance, and the base, and know each other very well, by scent, and I can smell the base in the scent. :-) I use this base in my own work, and bought a kilogram of it for my own works. Plainly there is more in Carnal Flower than just that Firmenich base, but I can certainly smell the base in Carnal Flower.

That is interesting.

Sometime mentioned to me that this fragrance contains quite a large concentration of natural tuberose absolute. And the F. Malle sales associates certainly say as much when they sell you a bottle (the highest ever, I think they say). So I would be surprised by the presence of a base as opposed to just some fillers like benzyl salicylate.

I need to get a sample of the base so I can smell and compare.

[George Tedder]

With all respect, I can vouch for their not being any of Firmenich's base in the formula of Carnal Flower, and this is coming from a credible source. That being said, I have not personally smelled this base, and it is more than possible that one smells similar to the other.

This is also quite interesting. Any possibility in being more specific?

[Bill Roberts]

Hmm, on checking further on this I see I probably fooled myself with a leading "0" being present or absent. The Firmenich "41286" that Paul mentioned as his clearly perceiving in Carnal Flower seems most likely to be the same number as my Tubereuse 041286.

That said, I'm at a real loss at this moment because my memory is that years back Paul very kindly sent me some of that base (or a touch-up of it with added methyl salicylate?? Or most likely original as well as touched-up) before I had the opportunity to buy any, and my recollection of it is different than my recollection of my later Tubereuse 041286. Which is part of why I hadn't thought I had overlap in Firmenich Tubereuse's with what Paul is talking about.

So I will have to check that when I get home.

Neither the base Paul sent me nor my later-purchased Tubereuse 041286 could be confused with the absolutes I have bought. (Admittedly, these are only from EB and LN, I believe three versions total.) Not possibly. Very fine bases, I thought them outstandingly well suited to a fine perfume wishing to claim a tuberose note, but not confusable with natural.

[George Tedder]

Very fine bases, I thought them outstandingly well suited to a fine perfume wishing to claim a tuberose note, but not confusable with natural.

Yes indeed. This is what I find slightly perplexing, as the fragrance smells exceedingly natural to me. I wonder what the interest in employing a Tuberose base would be

[Bill Roberts]

I think I misworded slightly there though I believe you did understand what I meant.

The Firmenich bases I have and what Paul sent me smell very natural but not confusable with "the natural" by which I meant absolute. I have not smelled the flower but they seem more like what you might expect of the flower rather than smelling as the absolute, and seem masterfully designed to work within perfumes.

[pkiler]

The thing about the extremely expensive absolute, is that it will never smell like the fresh flower. A good Perfumer will still have to tune up the absolute with other molecules to get it closer to the fresh flower. OR, not even try to use the fresh flower, and just use a base that gets closer to start with, and is loads cheaper, anyway. The Tuberose fresh flower headspace GC and the Absolute GC have only a little to do with each other, except for the name. As you can imagine, the absolute concentrates on the middle and base notes, and is a near miss on all the topnotes, just like any other absolute extraction type.

And when what you really want in that beautiful flower are the amazing topnotes, the absolute is not going to get you here.

[pkiler]

deleted, duplicate post, somehow...

[Geco]

""And when what you really want in that beautiful flower are the amazing topnotes, the absolute is not going to get you here.""
I'm agree, near my home i have 2 osmanthus bushes (var. osmanthus latifolium).
In october smell is wonderful, and are only head or semi-head notes... (green, fruity, lactonic,etc..).
And i have both, a sample of Carnal Flower and a Firmenich base (very good..) but fresh flower have a little bit more ..."something in the air"....

[pkiler]

""And when what you really want in that beautiful flower are the amazing topnotes, the absolute is not going to get you here.""
I'm agree, near my home i have 2 osmanthus bushes (var. osmanthus latifolium).
In october smell is wonderful, and are only head or semi-head notes... (green, fruity, lactonic,etc..).
And i have both, a sample of Carnal Flower and a Firmenich base (very good..) but fresh flower have a little bit more ..."something in the air"....

Great there Geco, I love Osmanthus too, I've actually built fresh flower bases for both, Tuberose and Osmanthus. Love them both... :-)

[ritternathan]

I am not an Iris expert, so I can't help you there.

Building tuberose has been an obsession with me, so I have done loads of research, and built my own bases.

Carnal Flower uses a Firmenich base, Tubereuse 41286. But there is probably a new replacement for it, so check with Firmenich or your Firm supplier.
Even better, and 4X expensive is the Firmenich Tuberose 95711 base.
I'm thinking of placing one of my Tuberose bases at PSH this next year.

I would love to see a Tuberose base at PSH and I would buy some too.

[pkiler]

I would love to see a Tuberose base at PSH and I would buy some too.

I've just gotten the quote from my compounder to make MY Tuberose base. It is NOT cheap. But it smells great.
At least I need to get some made for myself so I can make some of my scents again. Maybe I can afford to place 16oz at PSH too, and see how it sells.
At least getting the compounder to make it from all the materials that they DO have on hand takes the price down a little bit. Then I have to spike it with the more expensive materials that they don't carry.

I do have to figure out how I can replace the Jasmolactone Extra C that I bought at Bedoukian. It is $2500/kg, and they only sell in KG now, so I can't buy 100g at a time anymore. grrr.

[parker25mv]

I do have to figure out how I can replace the Jasmolactone Extra C that I bought at Bedoukian. It is $2500/kg, and they only sell in KG now, so I can't buy 100g at a time anymore. grrr.

Is it really that necessary? Surely there must be a combination of regular Jasmolactone with some other things that would be more cost effective.
Or even Lactojasmone (those two names had me really confused for a moment).
Undecalactone is supposed to have some distant similarity to the feeling of peach. Perhaps a drop of Apritone.

I'm not saying this because I know anything about these materials (I definitely don't) but just to get you thinking about some possible alternatives that could be more practical.

[George Tedder]

Is it really that necessary? Surely there must be a combination of regular Jasmolactone with some other things that would be more cost effective.
Or even Lactojasmone (those two names had me really confused for a moment).
Undecalactone is supposed to have some distant similarity to the feeling of peach. Perhaps a drop of Apritone.

I'm not saying this because I know anything about these materials (I definitely don't) but just to get you thinking about some possible alternatives that could be more practical.

Undecalactone gamma smells very very different.

Jasmine lactone, or cis jasmone lactone could both be used.

[pkiler]

Likely the closest is Jasmopyrane, I have an old Quest Sample, (before Givaudan bought them up.) The evaporative time is pretty close to my parameter, 356 hours.
We'll see if I can actually buy that, and the cost..? I think that I have two seller paths to buy this from GIVY, presently, let's see which one comes through?

Another close, is Lactone Cis-Jasmone (Waxy lactone) - but not as long lived, and a little more celery like than Jasmolactone Extra C. The good thing is that I have about 11 fluid ounces in the bottle that was given to me. Bad news, it's another Bedoukian product, so using it up, only forestalls the reformulation to the future.

Still working.

Update:
It seems that Jasmopyrane, is cheap, and very similar to my quest, Then, upon calling a supplier, it is also the same as Herbal Pyran / Jasmonyl, and is readily available stateside. That may be the winner.

The Upside to this search, is that I found another product, albeit quite rare, that I would like to try in my Gardenia base. Now I just need to find a supplier.

[George Tedder]

Likely the closest is Jasmopyrane, I have an old Quest Sample, (before Givaudan bought them up.) The evaporative time is pretty close to my parameter, 356 hours.
We'll see if I can actually buy that, and the cost..? I think that I have two seller paths to buy this from GIVY, presently, let's see which one comes through?

Another close, is Lactone Cis-Jasmone (Waxy lactone) - but not as long lived, and a little more celery like than Jasmolactone Extra C. The good thing is that I have about 11 fluid ounces in the bottle that was given to me. Bad news, it's another Bedoukian product, so using it up, only forestalls the reformulation to the future.

Still working.

Update:
It seems that Jasmopyrane, is cheap, and very similar to my quest, Then, upon calling a supplier, it is also the same as Herbal Pyran / Jasmonyl, and is readily available stateside. That may be the winner.

The Upside to this search, is that I found another product, albeit quite rare, that I would like to try in my Gardenia base. Now I just need to find a supplier.

Hey Paul. I haven't ever smelled the Givaudan quality (Jasmopyrane) but I have a sample of Jasmal (which is supposedly the same) which is radically different from Jasmolactone. Much more fatty than Cis Jasmone Lactone. It is indeed cheap (and used extensively in laundry, I think).

I don't know if they are the same thing. But I would make sure you get a sample first -- as one of us has a sample which seems rather different than the target. Perhaps it is a problem of nomenclature.

[pkiler]

Hey Paul. I haven't ever smelled the Givaudan quality (Jasmopyrane) but I have a sample of Jasmal (which is supposedly the same) which is radically different from Jasmolactone. Much more fatty than Cis Jasmone Lactone. It is indeed cheap (and used extensively in laundry, I think).

I don't know if they are the same thing. But I would make sure you get a sample first -- as one of us has a sample which seems rather different than the target. Perhaps it is a problem of nomenclature.

Thanks George for the caution... I have Jasmonyl, from PA, that is supposed to be the same as the Jasmopyrane/Herbal Pyrane/Jasmal. (I know, it's all very confusing with all the names..)

But I must say that the Jasmolactone Extra C is to me different from Jasmolactone.
But the difference between Jasmolactone Extra C, and the jasmonyl, is pretty slight, in odor profile. (At least in the past 6 hours of smelling them)

So, I bought a kilo of Jasmal from JD Walsh today, it was very cheap indeed. It was less than the price of a sample from Sigma Aldrich, LOL!
So when it comes, I'll see what it does or does not do... I may need to blend something else together with it to better mimic the terribly expensive Jasmolactone Extra C,
but to knock $2260 per kilo off the price, that is amazing, and at least a pretty good starting point.

:-) - PK