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  1. #1

    Default Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Hello,

    I am aware that the use of musk ambrette is restricted because of neurotoxic effects. I have heard that ambrette seed CO2 is also neurotoxic, but extensive googling and MSDS reading is not showing me this. The MSDS on Ambrettolide also does not talk about this.

    Can someone please close the book on this for me and explain what it is about musk ambrette that is neurotoxic, and whether or not that component exists in ambrette seed CO2 and ambrettolide? Sources are especially welcome.

    Thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Some of the best paintings ever created were done by people using neurotoxic chemicals.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Quote Originally Posted by revenant View Post
    Hello,

    I am aware that the use of musk ambrette is restricted because of neurotoxic effects. I have heard that ambrette seed CO2 is also neurotoxic, but extensive googling and MSDS reading is not showing me this. The MSDS on Ambrettolide also does not talk about this.

    Can someone please close the book on this for me and explain what it is about musk ambrette that is neurotoxic, and whether or not that component exists in ambrette seed CO2 and ambrettolide? Sources are especially welcome.

    Thanks.
    No I don't think anyone can reasonably do so on musk ambrette.

    It is not plausible at all that the information could be reasonably presented in a short space to where a person with no training in toxicology would have good understanding. Data "that" something can occur at a given level is easy enough, while "why" it happens takes far more. Not to mention the time that would be involved to do a good job.

    It's very simple. If you are going to sell perfumes in countries that don't allow the ingredient, or where insurance is involved that might not allow it, then you can't use it and the effort to write about why a problem can occur would change nothing as the answer is right there, you can't use it, no matter what the mechanistic cause.

    Or if you are not involved in a situation where there's such restriction then the "why" is fairly moot as well. Judge for yourself, I do not believe anyone will want to decide for you what level you may use. A websearch can turn up what information exists on levels shown to do harm in animal studies and I rather doubt any of us have the curiosity on that to really want to look it up. (Those that want to use it will, those that don't won't, is my guess.)

    Tons of perfume has been sold with musk ambrette and not only is it not clear a single person was harmed, so far as I know there's no evidence, but one can always speculate either way.

    That's about all that can be said about it in a short space.

    I regret that your answer has to be that you're not going to get what you're looking for re musk ambrette, but I believe you are not, unless the above is satisfying to you.

    As for ambrette seed, it doesn't contain musk ambrette, period.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Doing a search, I'm not finding anything on ambrette seed having neurotoxicity.
    Musk Ambrette is though, since it has difficulty being metabolized in the body and builds up in the body's fat tissues (neurons are composed of a large sheath of fat as electrical insulation).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Thanks for searching with me.

    I found that Musk ambrette is C12 H16 N2 O5 according to this source, but another source claims it to be C16H28O3. I find this discrepancy confusing. However, as we know that Musk ambrette was banned for being a nitro-musk, I will assume the latter source is doing something wrong and the formula with nitrogen in it is correct.

    We see that Ambrettolide is by definition: C16H28O2

    Ambrette seed contains a macrocyclic lactone C14H24O2 and ambrettolide (C16H28O2) according to this source.

    From what I understand, ambrette seed and its component ambrettolide do not have the nitrogen-based structure found in nitro-musks.

    Does anyone have any objections to my suggestion that ambrette seed and ambrettolide more generally have not yet shown any indications of neurotoxicity?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    There are at least three closely related but different molecules called ambrettolide. One of them Ambrettolide as it is a trade name. None of them has shown any dermal toxicity. Musk ambrette smells somewhat like ambrettolide from seeds but it is an entirely different compound.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ambrettolide vs Musk Ambrette vs Ambrette Seed: Neurotoxicity

    Quote Originally Posted by revenant View Post
    another source [/URL]claims it to be C16H28O3. I find this discrepancy confusing.
    as you already suspected the second source is simply incorrect.

    the Nitro Musk known as Musk Ambrette does neither occur naturally nor in any of the products sold under the name Ambrettolide.




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