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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    I suppose in due time America will be the perfumery capital of the Western world. Middle East will continue with their time honoured traditional perfumes, and with Europe becoming a castrato American perfumery will be the only nation in the west that continues to allow real perfume to be made. Of course that doesn't mean the French houses won't attempt to stay relevant so get ready for heavy marketing and lots of woody-amber fragrances with different top notes.
    I think so too. The future is bright for american perfumery.
    FYI: I spray all fragrances on clothing, never on skin.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    It's a good thing aroma chemical allergies to that extent does not exist -- per Luca Turin.
    I know - the peanut example is bad - but the general point is perfume/fragrances aren't essentials in any way, and yet they're likely to have many negative impacts on both wearers and those around them. Could just be skin reactions; more damningly, it's looking like they disupt gene expression and are carcinogenic.

    I would say this is a general trend to move fragrances in to a place where they're less damaging and less toxic to both wearers and the general pbulic. Back door social change.
    "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by darinaldi View Post
    Bravo. This might be one of the greatest reductiones ad absurdum I've read in a long time.
    Yep. Stupid to use the example of peanuts in the first place.
    "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  4. #64

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by slpfrsly View Post
    I know - the peanut example is bad - but the general point is perfume/fragrances aren't essentials in any way, and yet they're likely to have many negative impacts on both wearers and those around them. Could just be skin reactions; more damningly, it's looking like they disupt gene expression and are carcinogenic.

    I would say this is a general trend to move fragrances in to a place where they're less damaging and less toxic to both wearers and the general pbulic. Back door social change.
    You are wrong about having a negative impact on those around them. As I already said, again per Luca Turin, there are no aroma chemicals that are going to give people horrible asthma attacks or allergic reactions; it is just not the way these chemicals interact with the body. The worst impact it could have on someone is they do not enjoy the smell. As to being potential carcinogens, well everything is, and that argument is banal. Plus, the fantastic thing about perfumes is no one makes you wear them, so promoting regulating them on that basis is ignorant.

    The most heinous statement you just made by far though is that since perfumes aren't essential to life that we should not care if they're regulated. The idea that art isn't as necessary to life as food or water is evil and ugly.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    I suppose in due time America will be the perfumery capital of the Western world.
    Except by then every workplace in the USA will have banned perfume. It will become an underground pastime. Prohibition with a lot more white florals.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestbrummie View Post
    Except by then every workplace in the USA will have banned perfume. It will become an underground pastime. Prohibition with a lot more white florals.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    You are wrong about having a negative impact on those around them. As I already said, again per Luca Turin, there are no aroma chemicals that are going to give people horrible asthma attacks or allergic reactions; it is just not the way these chemicals interact with the body. The worst impact it could have on someone is they do not enjoy the smell. As to being potential carcinogens, well everything is, and that argument is banal. Plus, the fantastic thing about perfumes is no one makes you wear them, so promoting regulating them on that basis is ignorant.

    The most heinous statement you just made by far though is that since perfumes aren't essential to life that we should not care if they're regulated. The idea that art isn't as necessary to life as food or water is evil and ugly.
    And yet, quite literally, people have coughing and sneezing fits based on peoples' perfumes. It sounds like you're too wedded to perfumes being totally fine and 'safe'.

    If something isn't essentials, trades on limited materials, with dubious if not outright negative health impacts on the users and wider populations, then you, there's nothing heinous about playing it safe and regulating them. Sorry. You're missing nuances within a fragrance - your human rights really aren't being impinged here. Heinous? You're taking this far too seriously for someone who, I'm going to guess, is just a consumer.
    "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  8. #68

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by slpfrsly View Post
    And yet, quite literally, people have coughing and sneezing fits based on peoples' perfumes. It sounds like you're too wedded to perfumes being totally fine and 'safe'.

    If something isn't essentials, trades on limited materials, with dubious if not outright negative health impacts on the users and wider populations, then you, there's nothing heinous about playing it safe and regulating them. Sorry. You're missing nuances within a fragrance - your human rights really aren't being impinged here. Heinous? You're taking this far too seriously for someone who, I'm going to guess, is just a consumer.
    Again, it's nothing to do with safety.

    Required reading: http://www.kafkaesqueblog.com/2014/0...u-regulations/

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Please refrain from personal attacks, let’s stick to the topic without insulting fellow members.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Honestly we should just ban everything that isn't lavender oil and be done with it. It's the only utility driven fragrance needed

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by maksidrom View Post
    This is one of those rare cases when I'm glad I'm a fragrance hoarder...
    I hear you!
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    I suppose in due time America will be the perfumery capital of the Western world. Middle East will continue with their time honoured traditional perfumes, and with Europe becoming a castrato American perfumery will be the only nation in the west that continues to allow real perfume to be made. Of course that doesn't mean the French houses won't attempt to stay relevant so get ready for heavy marketing and lots of woody-amber fragrances with different top notes.
    You guys are forgetting about China. China, dude.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowtone View Post
    I have a strong feeling that 2020 will be the year of the back up bottle...
    Indeed!
    <div class="bnsotd"><b>Currently wearing:</b> <a href="ID26148387.html"><img src="http://www.basenotes.net/photos/products/33/26148387-7393.jpg"> Carven L'Eau Intense by Carven</a></div>

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at.
    I was joking...

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by ILikePeeps View Post
    Apparently straight from Sarah McCartney of 4160 Tuesdays.

    "These take into account that people might use a shower gel, then a cream and then a perfume, all of which have safety limits, that that piled on top of each other, they break them.
    This cumulation of irritants in essential oils and the occasional synthetic is the reason that people sometimes spray on a perfume and think that the perfume makes their skin sting, while it could be that it was their shower gel that was close to the limit, and the perfume just pushed it over the top."

    Hmmm, this reminds me of the Joker's plot to poison Gotham in Batman from 1989.
    Currently wearing: FiDi by Bond No. 9

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cook.bot View Post
    I don't see this info anywhere on the 4160 website or blog. May I ask where you got this?
    I took it down from my Facebook page, because it had been massively misunderstood. It was never on my website or blog, I put it on the page to let my own customers know what was happening over the next two years.

    We need to reformulate by 2022, so I'm sure some perfumers aren't looking into it yet because it seems like a long time away.
    Besides we have around 90 fragrances now. Reformulating and paying for new Cosmetics Products Safety Reports isn't do bad if you have less than ten out there, but I can't afford the £18,000 it would take to keep them all legal to sell.

    None of this is new; it's been in the public domain for around the last five years, ever since the EU chemicals regulators first proposed the changes. In fact after IFRA's negotiations, it is a lot less hard hitting than we originally expected.
    Perfumer & writer
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    " a mordant mistress of illusion" Lemon Wedge

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    God bless Rogue Perfumery

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by 4160Tuesdays View Post
    I took it down from my Facebook page, because it had been massively misunderstood. It was never on my website or blog, I put it on the page to let my own customers know what was happening over the next two years.

    We need to reformulate by 2022, so I'm sure some perfumers aren't looking into it yet because it seems like a long time away.
    Besides we have around 90 fragrances now. Reformulating and paying for new Cosmetics Products Safety Reports isn't do bad if you have less than ten out there, but I can't afford the £18,000 it would take to keep them all legal to sell.

    None of this is new; it's been in the public domain for around the last five years, ever since the EU chemicals regulators first proposed the changes. In fact after IFRA's negotiations, it is a lot less hard hitting than we originally expected.
    Thank you for the clarification!

    I have a question which you may remember the answer to. Maybe around 8-10 years ago, IFRA finished a round of reductions (I don't recall what they were), but next up was vanilla, vanillins, or both. I remember that people on here ridiculed the idea as absurd, given the massive daily consumption of vanilla in foodstuffs. Within roughly 6 months to a year, I think it was, we then heard that the proposed regulations were withdrawn. With both relief and a good laugh!

    First - do you remember anything like this? Next, if so, can you shed any light on what the thinking was? Lastly, are they still talking about going after vanilla? It's one of the few things they've allegedly proposed that really just seemed either pointless or just downright Orwellian.
    There is no beauty / That cannot be more abused / To beauty's effect.
    / blog:// https://cologniac.com / raging for the machines

  19. #79

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nastka View Post
    This layering nonsense (shower gel / cream and perfume) is probably the most idiotic thing I've heard so far. Where is this going to stop, especially that every single cosmetic may be applied in different amounts? Why not just ban everything outright? Hope I won't give anyone stupid ideas here...

    Put a warning label on it already and be done with it.
    They never stop, these burocrats need to justify their existence.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by slpfrsly View Post
    I think it's the (generally quite reasonable) position that far more people use shower gels and soaps - an essential for hygiene - than perfume, which is not.

    This is one thing which, although disappointing, I can understand and accept. I'm not outright allergic to anything in perfumes, but I'm definitely sensitive, and many vintage fragrances almost always make me sneeze, give me a headache, and/or cause my nose to block. Sooo...I'm glad that the changes made in the last 30 years have meant that very few fragrances now do this, and it's only overspraying or the odd unlucky scent that tends to provoke that reaction in me.

    To then take that experience and transpose it on to someone who literally IS allergic and/or more sensitive to more elements used in perfumery, where contact with their skin could cause significant issues...it's a small sacrifice worth paying. There are more options for perfume than ever before - and while you can bemoan 'things ain't what they used to be', I just cannot fathom this being a major issue. Synthetics can be great. Perfumers will adapt.

    I wrote in my review of Dior's Eau Sauvage EDP that I wonder whether the 2017 reformulation was allergen based, as the 2012 version reacted with me. Ultimately, the world is a better place for the vast, vast majority of people with these rules. Red tape or not. There is a tiny minority of people on these sites who actually "need" vintages or certain ingredients, and I would suggest that need is more emotional and/or hobbyist than anything else...which, again, there are bigger fish to fry, in my view.
    I don't accept it, screw that, put a warning label on it. People with allergies should just avoid perfume then.

  21. #81

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by slpfrsly View Post
    All well and good until people start smearing themselves (and consequently ATM screens, all public handles etc.) in peanut butter and then someone collapses and dies because there are people out there who think it's ridiculous they have to stop wearing peanut butter, to hell with anyone else.
    How does that boot taste?

  22. #82

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by slpfrsly View Post
    I think it's the (generally quite reasonable) position that far more people use shower gels and soaps - an essential for hygiene - than perfume, which is not.

    This is one thing which, although disappointing, I can understand and accept. I'm not outright allergic to anything in perfumes, but I'm definitely sensitive, and many vintage fragrances almost always make me sneeze, give me a headache, and/or cause my nose to block. Sooo...I'm glad that the changes made in the last 30 years have meant that very few fragrances now do this, and it's only overspraying or the odd unlucky scent that tends to provoke that reaction in me.

    To then take that experience and transpose it on to someone who literally IS allergic and/or more sensitive to more elements used in perfumery, where contact with their skin could cause significant issues...it's a small sacrifice worth paying. There are more options for perfume than ever before - and while you can bemoan 'things ain't what they used to be', I just cannot fathom this being a major issue. Synthetics can be great. Perfumers will adapt.

    I wrote in my review of Dior's Eau Sauvage EDP that I wonder whether the 2017 reformulation was allergen based, as the 2012 version reacted with me. Ultimately, the world is a better place for the vast, vast majority of people with these rules. Red tape or not. There is a tiny minority of people on these sites who actually "need" vintages or certain ingredients, and I would suggest that need is more emotional and/or hobbyist than anything else...which, again, there are bigger fish to fry, in my view.
    Here is where I disagree with what you are saying: the world is not a better place by banning and censoring art in order to maybe allow a tiny percentage of people to be more comfortable. If these things really do bother you so much then you do not participate in the art, simple as that. If you are allergic to sugar you do not demand that bakery be changed, you simply do not eat bakery products or only consume ones made specifically for people like you. This is reasonable and rational. Instead, you say that since a few people are allergic (they're not you misunderstand why IFRA bans and regulates substances it is because they can sensitize skin over prolonged exposure or cause photo sensitivity, not allergic reactions all that is in your head; a perfume might bother your nose but that has nothing to do with allergies) we should censor the art form, degrade it, and neuter it in order to *maybe* appease people who don't care anyways. This is unreasonable and irrational. If perfumes bother you, then do not wear perfume as you have already stated it is not a utility and thus you have no right to it.

  23. #83
    Basenotes Junkie oudaddict's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    There are a few fragrances that trigger hayfever-like allergies every time I wear them (one of them is my beloved Amouage Interlude Man), I just get rid of them and use something else. I'm not sure whether these types of allergic reactions concern IFRA or not, just highlighting that some fragrances do cause such reactions.

  24. #84
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    There are a few fragrances that trigger hayfever-like allergies every time I wear them (one of them is my beloved Amouage Interlude Man), I just get rid of them and use something else. I'm not sure whether these types of allergic reactions concern IFRA or not, just highlighting that some fragrances do cause such reactions.
    You're not alone in this, oudaddict. I started to sneeze *a lot* from Bracken Man and realised something in it was bothering me. Gave my sample away (luckily didn't grab a full bottle) and I'm fine. I also get similar allergy-like symptoms from Alpha-Isomethyl ionone which is also a controlled ingredient by IFRA. So I've since started cutting down on scents with that too. I'm surprised though at how many scents have this stuff in...
    Currently wearing: Original Vetiver by Creed

  25. #85

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by thrilledchilled View Post
    I've said it before. this is all about protecting giant chemical fragrance companies. Nothing to do with safety.
    Must be a way around this utter nonsense. Can it be called something else? See Andy T. coins he's products imersive sculptures... Then it's not perfume. Then the rules dont apply.

    F$@€ ... all these regulations are provocative!

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by rum View Post
    You're not alone in this, oudaddict. I started to sneeze *a lot* from Bracken Man and realised something in it was bothering me. Gave my sample away (luckily didn't grab a full bottle) and I'm fine. I also get similar allergy-like symptoms from Alpha-Isomethyl ionone which is also a controlled ingredient by IFRA. So I've since started cutting down on scents with that too. I'm surprised though at how many scents have this stuff in...
    Thanks for sharing this, glad to know I'm not alone!

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    I wore lolita lempicka masculin once on the metro and a young man started sneezing like crazy i was shocked at first but it's true some people have allergic reactions to fragrance. The same day another man came up close and was smelling me up close and said i need to smell this incredible fragrance it smells amazing!! I sneeze alot when i chew mint Flavored gum so i guess we all react to different fragrances or substances.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by ultravisitor View Post
    The funny thing about peanut butter, though, is that a reason why so many kids developed allergies to peanuts is because parents weren't feeding them to their kids, so they weren't able to develop the proper antibodies for them. Parents were overprotecting their kids.
    Correct... and here is the funny part; several studies conclude that giving children small amounts of peanuts and gradually increasing the dosage over a long time span will increase their bodys tolerance to the allergen.

    Another study i read concluded that farmers, vet's & people with dogs, cats etc were less exposed to develop asthma and allergies.

    My unscientifical hunch suggests we are off in the wrong direction.

  29. #89

    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    OK, firstly, please understand that I’m writing this lengthy post primarily to address a lot of the misinformation on this thread and not to attacks anyone’s opinions or views of which you’re each entitled to. I work in the industry and have a reasonable idea of what I’m talking about.

    Firstly IFRA 49 is a NOT a regulation, it’s a code of practice. In the eyes of the courts if you don’t follow a code of practice you need a very good reason for not doing so but it is not a regulation.

    Back in 2011 (just before Christmas) the SCCS, an independent EU body made up of academics and experts released an opinion on the labelling of an additional 56 fragrance allergens together with significant reductions (no more than 100 ppm) of commonly used, bread and butter ingredients which would have destroyed the industry as we know it. There was significant lobbying from both the industry and consumer goods companies (remember, fragrance is much more than fine fragrance, its your everyday staples like laundry detergent etc in addition)ed on allergens, education and something called QRA2. QRA (Quantitative Risk Assessment) is how you work out what levels of individual materials will induce sensititisation (not elicit) and the aim is to keep max use levels below the induction threshold to avoid increased sensitisation of consumers. It’s not perfect but it was the best available at the time.

    The SCCS in its opinion (actually there were 3 in total but who’s counting?) demanded an improvement to QRA and thus QRA2 was born. QRA2 looks at aggregate exposure, ie it considers that for the purposes of sensitisation you’re exposed repeatedly to the same ingredient over and over through the products you use and thus may induce sensititsation through repeated exposure despite every one of your individual products all being under the induction dose.

    IFRA 49 then uses an exposure model and fragrance doses to determine overall exposure and demonstrate “safety” for the 95th percentile. These then need to be translated into max use levels per ingredient, per product application by the houses themselves. IFRA 49 has been delayed a number of times (running around 18 months late) due to refining the model to make the best of it and not hamper creation. Current modelling shows that some max use levels will change but not necessarily for the worse. Reformulation may not be as widespread as feared but since the final standards have only just been published there’s a lot of work to after the New Year to determine the overall impact.

    I’ve refrained from adding my own opinion to this but will editorialise a little from here. Whilst people may not like the new amendment to IFRA the alternative was significantly worse. The SCCS opinions would have killed the industry whereas IFRA 49 is an attempt to increase consumer safety (whatever your views on this are its something the SCCS take very seriously and thus the EU COM) and demonstrate that self regulation via IFRA does actually work. Whether you like the politics or not you can’t ignore them and that’s why we have IFRA 49 in it’s current guise.

    To the point that it will be a golden time for American perfumers be aware that FAC signs up to the IFRA standards and once more I’ll make the point that for self-regulation to work you actually have to regulate. If you look at the plethora of state and federal initiatives around chemicals in the US, some of which gain traction, some not, you need an industry body pulling for you and ensuring the fringe legislation is not overly crippling. It’s a balance, like most things in life.

    Here endeth the lesson, sorry for going on.

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Uh oh.. Massive fragrance changes in 2021/2022. (opoponax, jasmine, ylang ylang)..

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny73 View Post
    …I’m writing this lengthy post primarily to address a lot of the misinformation on this thread…
    Thanks—I had the gist of it, but it's nice to see the details spelled out. I may not like the current code of practice—and either seek out indie perfumers who don't adhere to it or perfumes from well before it was adopted—but I understand that cosmetics companies and others that use fragrance have little choice but to comply.




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