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  1. #1

    Default A little (very little) Fougere research

    In the one corner we have it that a fougere is built on, and must have, lavender, geranium, and coumarin. Many other things are common additions, but these are required.

    And in the other we have it that a fougere is built on lavender, geranium, and bergamot. Again, all these are required.

    We can find good or great references to back up both of these.

    In quick research, what can we find in published formulas?

    Enterering "fougere" into the Perfumer Search Page ( http://www.perfumersearch.com/ ) gives us 13 fougere formulas: http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...dm1115151.html

    Now more research would surely give us more formulas, but let's just go with these.

    EDIT: Deleted all the examples shown as being overkill.

    Upshot, the formulators of these -- often just short formulas, generally not approaching perfumes IMO -- call formulas "fougere" pretty much regardless of whether they have lavender or not, coumarin or not, bergamot or not, or geranium or not. There is even a formula that has no coumarin, no geranium, AND no bergamot, no possible "fougere accord" whatsoever as historically understood. Conclusion, to them having a single element of any of lavender, coumarin, or bergamot is all you need to slap that label on their formula.

    On the basis of that:

    I completely withdraw my previous statements. Apparently throw together some type of lavender in your formula and you've got a fougere. Or don't even bother with that.

    If we wish to join with "words don't mean a thing, whatever's in your head is the only thing that matters, having a consensus understanding of what words mean is old school and we are past that.":

    I am depressed now. Words once meant something, and that enabled communication. Now you tell me your formula is a fougere and if I had a long-standing understanding of fougere that for over a century meant something, something which everyone in the field understood, now that means nothing, e.g. as with Accord N° 208689 Fougere woody.

    This post did NOT go as expected. I was hopeful of finding some consistency of meaning. I had not realized the world had gone so thoroughly to hell. Complete Newspeak.

    Having for sure worn out my welcome on this topic, I won't be posting more on what makes things, or are the key elements of, a fougere or chypre or anything else. Anything will be called anything by some, even by Firmenich. The day for expecting words to mean what they used to is obviously done.

    I have officially as of today obviously become too old. Never thought that 57 was, but it clearly is.

    Are there still guides to doing things in a quality way? I'm sure there are but I'm not again with regard to perfumery going to get into what the categories "are." That has clearly disappeared in favor of "whatever."

  2. #2
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Learning perfume making is essentially dealing with delusions about it. Every which way.

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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    call formulas "fougere" pretty much regardless
    AND - - - NONE of those formulas have ANY real fern in them, to begin with.
    It's all fantasy. Fantasy defined by fantasy. Imagine that! :-)

    I actually DO make a scent with real Fern tincture in it, my Ere perfume, a ***REAL... Fougere.
    ;-)

    https://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/up...loor-small.jpg

    You can see the real fern that I process at the link above.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Very nice Paul!

  5. #5
    Super Member SubUmbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Words once meant something, and that enabled communication.

    Complete Newspeak.

    The day for expecting words to mean what they used to is obviously done.

    Never thought that 57 was, but it clearly is.
    If you'll permit me a low-hanging fruit tease at your expense: isn't it funny that these words were uttered by someone about a category many fragrance fans see as "old-man" or "dad"-ish? It's just too perfect!

    I find myself rather conflicted about your waxing perfume poetic here, because, hey, I did something similar when I sincerely questioned the accuracy of calling Zoologist's Dodo a fougere... even a "peculiar" one, as their marketing positioned it. That fragrance didn't seem like a fougere when I first applied it and it still didn't seem like one when the perfume's very last breaths floated off into the ether away from my skin.

    On the other hand, January Scent Project's Eiderantler -- what I would call a VERY "peculiar fougere" -- doesn't come off as particularly coumarin-, lavender-, bergamot-, or even geranium-heavy... Yet I firmly believe most fragrance fans who know enough to bandy about words like "chypre" and "fougere" would, at the very least, nod their heads when asked if it is a fougere.

    I like both of the above-mentioned fragrances, and whether or not I consider them fougeres has never stopped me from wanting to own full bottles of both.

    It appears that, whether or not it is the result of maybe a little overthinking on your end, you seem to associate "good fougeres" with ones that have at least a noticeable dose of some of the materials you list above. I generally agree, and have also been taught that typical fougere notes also contain those very same notes.

    KEYWORD, though, is "typical." Because there is a whole other school of fragrance enthusiasts who entertain the notion that: "because 'fougere' literally means 'fern,' and because the first fougere designed by Paul Parquet for Houbigant with ferns in mind, fougere can also refer to green, herbaceous fragrances with or without a fern note."

    Hey, that reminds me: the "first fougere," Fougere Royale, also contained OAKMOSS, a material that is also often cited as a common material and one which you omitted in your research (or one that your research's results omitted, puzzlingly?)

    Another thing to note along with the historical reference above is: what time period are we talking about? Because if we're talking the late 1800's, a fougere would typically contain oakmoss, coumarin, lavender, and bergamot. But in the 1980s, the fougere went musky, woody, dark, etc. After falling out of fashion, they came back again in a new wave, where we're seeing successful fougeres include different bases which give off that same smooth, semi-sweet, semi-woody, semi-creamy feeling while not necessarily containing coumarin... and, especially true these days, without containing oakmoss.

    All this to say: like every fragrance category, the fougere has gone through many tweaks, but the important thing for categorizing it doesn't necessary have to equate to "does it have these four specific notes." I think if you are able to capture the smooth, semi-sweet, semi-woody, semi-creamy complex but with other materials, it can still be called a fougere.

    "Spicy" fragrances can be made of any number of spicy-smelling materials, aimed at recreating the smell of any number of spices. But, safe to say, as long as it smells fairly spicy, we would still say that a fragrance that contains a prominent black pepper note is still a spicy fragrance as one that contains a prominent cinnamon note, yes?

    So if a fragrance that replaces oakmoss & coumarin with patchouli & a smooth sandalwood base claims to be a fougere, I see no reason why we couldn't entertain the thought and trust our noses to do the judging.

    This is a fun topic, I hope I don't sound like I'm on a high-horse, I enjoy thinking about them as you apparently do and appreciate your contribution to the topic!

  6. #6

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Interesting and great points, thank you!

    It's not that I forgot about oakmoss, I consider it a fine possible ingredient for fougeres, but wasn't persuaded that there's a strong argument for necessity. It's entirely possible that I should have added a combination that included oakmoss as one of the theories of fougeres. (If I had, I would have reported that 12 out of 13 on that TGSC page do not have it, which would have been lower representation than any of lavender, geranium, coumarin, and bergamot. Not that that proves longstanding usage of the word "fougere" at all.)

    As personal prejudice quite devoid of merit beyond that, in terms of getting a handle on "What makes a category?" if something is very characteristic of one category -- here, oakmoss and chypres -- and very arguably optional in another, then personally I am unlikely to emphasize it as being key to both.

    That also might be part of personal prejudice on why I have never kept labdanum in fougeres -- if I have oakmoss and bergamot in there as well then (to me) I have a chypre with lavender and geranium! Not that there's anything wrong with that but it leaves me feeling the thing has no direction. And in my mind I just see the goats on the island of Cyprus with the labdanum in their beards. Prejudice? Sure.

    (Btw, zero labdanum in that TGSC fougere set, again for that's worth which I think is not that much.)

    Also I believe Jamie posted a view once that salicylates are rather characteristic of modern fougeres, which is hardly disputable, so in an extensive discussion that could have been looked at too. In the presently discussed TGSC fougere data set, it appears in 7 of 13, which actually is more than bergamot at 5/13, but less than geranium at 8 of 13, coumarin at 11 of 13, and lavender at 12 of 13.

    It is also worth mentioning a view that Jamie once posted, I think, that fougeres, or let's say (he may not have) fougeres with oakmoss, are a type of chypre, which is an interesting way of thinking.

    To me it would seem to communicate better to describe something as "green herbaceous" than "fougere" if for example having those qualities but having none or say only one of lavender, geranium, coumarin, or bergamot.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 22nd January 2020 at 09:42 PM.

  7. #7
    Super Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
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    ''[...] The perfumery is in such a state so badly, that even Johnson's talc lost their essence [...]''
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    In another day i take i fern leaves that grown spontaneously in the garden, when fresh, pratically don't have scent. i dried it in a book, and create scent, very subtle, smell herbal, dark, and a bit sweet, old powdery aspect, resambles but no much the classic fougere fragrances. I made a tincture of this, smell badly, repulsive green. I even read the plants (herbs n flowers) have more essential oil in north hemisfere than the tropical areas (wich i live), same exists many species of ferns, i think one or other have resemblance. Does P. Parquet made a pure fantasy ? mmm... possibly or ...

    I find this :

    Nouveau manuel du parfumeur 1895 by P. Pradal, its from Roret enciclopaedia, these book had others editions too
    https://ia802609.us.archive.org/Book...ale=4&rotate=0

    Fougčre mâle, of above is Dryopteris filix-mas
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryopteris_filix-mas
    And the roots have scent and uses: page 313
    https://books.google.com.br/books?id...atique&f=false

    In links i shared above someone say exists a fern with scent, called royal fern, I think its the osmunda regalis, i still serch more about, however

    Is know too vernal grass (anthoxanthum odoratum), Septimus Piesse, describe at his book (1852 with others editions), with an intense coumarinic scent, like tonka beans and hay, and say too the coumarin is very valuable to perfumery. Now is know by 'flouve' (french name), its sold actually in the market oil and absolute. S. Piesse mention the coumaru beans, is used in compositions like 'new mown hay', and pastoral bouquets, for the people loves the field scent (shepherd place)

    Another reference is related P. Parquet used the rondeletia accord in his F.R., an accord already described by S. Piesse. The things can't be interconnected, but is good to understand the mind of perfumers in 19th century.

    What is said to be an 'fougere', is the lavender, oakmoss, and cumarin, as a basic structure. Geranium, bergamot, and nitromusks is also employed in perfumes of this family/category. The sensation shared among the fragrances of fougere family, is a calming scent, herbal slightly floral (lavender), a bit fresh a bit dry, with sweet powdery smell (the barber shop).

    For me Rondeletia have a quite different scent, confortable, pleasure, an warm 'floral', like a dark blue when nightfall. i don't recognise very well the lavender or cloves at this, it''s create a true new perfume.

    The lavender and geranium, when in equilibrium, give an scent of forest wind to me. Perhaps the use of geranium enhance the effect of oakmoss and nitromusks, alliated with coumarin, softening the composition, turning much pleasurable. But probably, initialy mr. Parquet not use the nitromusks. So i can imaginates a more heavy perfume. Perhaps the folow fougere fragrances, turn more flexible, not only by the market tasty, but the price of musks too.

    The fern scent i described above, i think, fit more in the imaginated fougere royale, than the barber shop fougeres we are familiarized.

    I know i can saying much foolishness, going counter of literatures and concepts, but here are my thoughts for the moment. This is part of my instruction
    ''[...] The perfumery is in such a state so badly, that even Johnson's talc lost their essence [...]''
    Currently wearing: Tai Winds by Avon

  9. #9

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    I have a sample of Ere kindly sent to me by Paul and it is an amazing fragrance.

    Bill, you seem quite down about this topic so I hate to even mention I have recently made a very nice “fougere-ish” fragrance made with no geranium - only key notes of bergamot, tonka bean absolute, oakmoss, and lavender, along with several other notes. IMO, I look at it this way - everything evolves, including fragrance and especially one’s idea of what something is. Verymoss smells like oakmoss, but it isn’t oakmoss at all, and initial fougere fragrances contained real oakmoss. Of those four key notes mentioned, only two that I used are naturals. My tangential point being: materials once considered vital to a fougere are no longer there - yet it’s still a fougere.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Thank you, Brian!

    Oh, your formula is nothing like the kind that had me down:

    Accord N° 208689 Fougere woody (Firmenich)

    30.00 BASILIC SYNTH
    150.00 BERGAMOTE SYNTH
    30.00 COUMARIN
    30.00 EUGENOL
    350.00 EXOLIDE® (Firmenich) (use exolide replacer)
    30.00 IRALIA® TOTAL (Firmenich)
    30.00 ISO BUTYL QUINOLEINE 10%
    30.00 PATCHOULI OIL
    200.00 VERTOFIX® COEUR (IFF)
    60.00 VETYVER HAITI
    60.00 FIXATEUR 505 (Firmenich) 10%
    1000.00 Total

    On yours not having geranium, I did list that as characteristic, from David's influence though could perhaps have come to the same anyway. A number of good sources do not.

    You do have lavender, coumarin (a source of) and oakmoss and I don't doubt it seems a fougere without extending that word beyond all recognition!

    And by the way, for all materials the literal exact substance was not meant, e.g. could be geranyl acetate not geranium, Evernyl not oakmoss, etc.

    But that Firmenich "fougere?" Firmenich!!!

  11. #11

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Thank you, Brian!

    Oh, your formula is nothing like the kind that had me down:

    Accord N° 208689 Fougere woody (Firmenich)

    30.00 BASILIC SYNTH
    150.00 BERGAMOTE SYNTH
    30.00 COUMARIN
    30.00 EUGENOL
    350.00 EXOLIDE® (Firmenich) (use exolide replacer)
    30.00 IRALIA® TOTAL (Firmenich)
    30.00 ISO BUTYL QUINOLEINE 10%
    30.00 PATCHOULI OIL
    200.00 VERTOFIX® COEUR (IFF)
    60.00 VETYVER HAITI
    60.00 FIXATEUR 505 (Firmenich) 10%
    1000.00 Total

    On yours not having geranium, I did list that as characteristic, from David's influence though could perhaps have come to the same anyway. A number of good sources do not.

    You do have lavender, coumarin (a source of) and oakmoss and I don't doubt it seems a fougere without extending that word beyond all recognition!

    And by the way, for all materials the literal exact substance was not meant, e.g. could be geranyl acetate not geranium, Evernyl not oakmoss, etc.

    But that Firmenich "fougere?" Firmenich!!!
    The traditional fougere is indeed coumarin, lavender, germanium and moss. This was essentially the formula for the original fougere royale (according to the osmoteque, at least). Tons and tons of coumarin by the way. I think about 50%.

    If you remove one of these elements, you can still detect the sort of skeleton. Even if you scale and adjust the proportions. That is why this accord is so clever. That is even why some fragrances -- which are really chypres or classic woodies -- can smell a bit fougere. Terre comes to mind.

    I do slightly disagree with the geranyl acetate bit. I think geraniol would make for a much closer approximation. Even citronellol before geranyl acetate.

    There is always blending between these categories.

  12. #12
    Super Member SubUmbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    This conversation inspired me to create a Fougere this weekend. Fear not Bill, it’ll have coumarin, bergamot, lavender (a little) and even oak moss. But I’m going to try a combination of hinoki and carnation instead of geranium.

  13. #13

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by George Tedder View Post
    The traditional fougere is indeed coumarin, lavender, germanium and moss. This was essentially the formula for the original fougere royale (according to the osmoteque, at least). Tons and tons of coumarin by the way. I think about 50%.

    If you remove one of these elements, you can still detect the sort of skeleton. Even if you scale and adjust the proportions. That is why this accord is so clever. That is even why some fragrances -- which are really chypres or classic woodies -- can smell a bit fougere. Terre comes to mind.

    I do slightly disagree with the geranyl acetate bit. I think geraniol would make for a much closer approximation. Even citronellol before geranyl acetate.

    There is always blending between these categories.
    I agree with you completely on all points, George.

    In fact I was hoping to see what you have to say on this. Thank you!

    Geranyl acetate was based on seeing many formulas using only that as a geranium-related material rather than in my opinion that being such a great idea.

    Myself, I definitely prefer the natural for a fougere.

  14. #14

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by SubUmbra View Post
    This conversation inspired me to create a Fougere this weekend. Fear not Bill, it’ll have coumarin, bergamot, lavender (a little) and even oak moss. But I’m going to try a combination of hinoki and carnation instead of geranium.


    That sounds very nice! I have never worked with carnation in a fougere, which pretty much astounds me now that you mention it. I certainly need to in a next effort.

  15. #15

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Trying to put together all the contributed thoughts and trying to come up with something better than I've said before, perhaps this is useful and accurate:

    1) Rather than treating the matter as only yes/no on being a fougere, we could think in terms of spectrum ranging from "undoubtedly a fougere" to "only some will experience it as distinctly a fougere" to "in a pig's eye that's a fougere!"

    2) Key notes of an undeniable fougere, to people who know and are working in accord with longstanding meaning, are lavender, coumarin, geranium, and oak moss.

    3) A perfume may not necessarily have all these but still succeed as a fougere at least to many or some.

    4) Omitting lavender may or perhaps certainly risk the perfume being perceived as a fougere.

    5) Omitting any one of coumarin, geranium, or oak moss notes may have some not finding it a fougere, while others may accept that it is, because of the others.

    6) The more you omit, probably the more you'll slide down the scale.

    7) Arguably some people will view the matter as feeling rather than notes and so might call something a fougere perhaps without a single such note, because their definition has to do with things such as being green and aromatic, but most likely something with no such notes would not have been called a fougere in the past. Some may exist that are marketed that way and perhaps genuinely felt by some to be that way.

    ---------

    And for chypres, similarly, except our list from from combining what has been said on Fragrance DIY would be notes of oak moss, labdanum, bergamot, animalic, and powdery, with similar philosophy as to how some may be omitted, and it depending on the person as to which those are. But the more one omits the further one slides from clearly being a chypre, by longstanding meaning.

    And due to oakmoss restriction, and perhaps not wanting to spend money on labdanum or bergamot or simply not wishing them but wishing the marketing of calling a perfume a chypre or not having any profit-making idea of what else to call it, a lot of commercial "chypre" formulas have drifted quite far away from anything that would have been recognized as such formerly.

    Reasonable??

  16. #16
    Super Member SubUmbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post


    That sounds very nice! I have never worked with carnation in a fougere, which pretty much astounds me now that you mention it. I certainly need to in a next effort.
    I figure carnation will provide the floral-spice while hinoki will produce that almost-mentholated note in geranium. Let's hope I'm onto something.

    If you want further evidence that carnation is well-suited to fougere-like fragrance, check out Sandalwood Cologne by Geo F. Trumper!

  17. #17
    Super Member Finelikeanoyster's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Now comes a question for me:

    Who or what invented the classification of fragrances ? When ? Someone knows this ?
    ''[...] The perfumery is in such a state so badly, that even Johnson's talc lost their essence [...]''
    Currently wearing: Tai Winds by Avon

  18. #18
    Basenotes Member nicotiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    made my friend a perfume and im not sure if its a fougere but i think it smells like one
    its ingredients are something like (no coumarin) and not in order
    sage dalamatian bit
    farnesol bit
    helional touch
    hexanol-3-cis trace
    geraniol drop
    ionone alpha bit
    copaiba balsam generous
    amyris generous
    elemi touch
    rosewood drop
    clearwood bit
    treemoss bit
    oakmoss touch
    frankinsence drop
    sandalwood trace
    sandalore + ebanol touch
    vetiver bit
    black agar generous
    benzoin generous
    bergamot drop
    ethyl vanillin trace
    lavender fleurs bit

    i feel like i added so many more ingredients but may have forgotten them and we made this together as i quickly made him smell as many as he could "say yes or no" and it turned out wonderful, a green woody fougere, a sage-y green fresh patchouli with a balsamic agar dry down... i have called it "Kitsilano Patchouli" because he and the perfume i made for him reminds me of those new age people from Kitsilano (Vancouver) that go to yoga class and buy organic vegetables from the farmers market every Thursday
    Last edited by nicotiro; 1st February 2020 at 03:32 AM. Reason: some touches were more like traces and drops more like bits

  19. #19

    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    lol I love your super precise measurements. Is this how you sketch out a formulation to nail down measurements later?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    While mad inspiration is always an option, repeatability of even some sort is also of paramount importance.

    I certainly recommend/demand even that every item is weighed upon placement into the formula, even if you simply noted the materials and the number of drops, that would be better than no record at all.

    This is my quick and easy accord/small idea worksheet, easily used for these types of purposes.
    Since I readily use a customized Excel spreadsheet for formulations, this is a bit easier to run and gun a fragrance and rapid development of an idea.

    And it's certainly better than nothing.

    https://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/up...K-Perfumes.pdf

    When I use this, I have two columns that I divide off, since this is used for small type rough formulas. I use the first grouped column (sometimes) to record drops, and also the second column to record the weight of those drops.
    If I re-run the formula, that 2nd run goes into the second column, third run into the 3rd column, etc.

    Maybe that will help you to have a few printed out for your worksheets...

    PK
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    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  21. #21
    Basenotes Member nicotiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by lkkjjj View Post
    lol I love your super precise measurements. Is this how you sketch out a formulation to nail down measurements later?
    lol i guess! if i repeat this it wont be the same for sure. but at least i have a sense of wht it smells like.... now, it smells like there is too much clearwood and treemoss, the soft wood powdery agar dry down is lost.

    ialso added (but... already forgotten the precise amounts!!)
    guaicwood generous
    cedar atlas three drops
    virginia cedar one drop
    tobacco leaf 5% half the 1ml pipette tube

    (lol)
    Last edited by nicotiro; 8th February 2020 at 05:50 AM. Reason: ingredients!

  22. #22
    Basenotes Member nicotiro's Avatar
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    Default Re: A little (very little) Fougere research

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post

    This is my quick and easy accord/small idea worksheet, easily used for these types of purposes.
    Since I readily use a customized Excel spreadsheet for formulations, this is a bit easier to run and gun a fragrance and rapid development of an idea.

    And it's certainly better than nothing.

    https://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/up...K-Perfumes.pdf

    When I use this, I have two columns that I divide off, since this is used for small type rough formulas. I use the first grouped column (sometimes) to record drops, and also the second column to record the weight of those drops.
    If I re-run the formula, that 2nd run goes into the second column, third run into the 3rd column, etc.

    Maybe that will help you to have a few printed out for your worksheets...

    PK
    totally using this!!!!! im going to print out a bunch and staple them to my notebook.




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    Last Post: 4th February 2019, 10:22 AM
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Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000