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Thread: Formulation %

  1. #1

    Default Formulation %

    This is just regarding % so... if I mix down to 10%.. can I still make 30/70 40/60 mixes? So like Parfum concentrate? Or is that not possible as itís at a low concentrate... have mixed my ambrinol 95 down to 5 Ml from 10 Ml and I think Iím gonna take that to 1 as itís still crazy strong.. also what should different things be mixed to... so say patchouli what percentage then maybe a musk or oud also bergamot

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    It's mostly arbitrary, It all depends on how strong you want an aroma ingredient to be, some are restricted and must be capped at a specific %, but some aren't and can be used liberally. Usually there are recommend usage levels on the sellers websites or TGSC.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Formulation %

    I wouldnt dilute my whole stock of a material down. Dilute a reasonable amount that you can use in a few experiments and keep the rest of the more concentrated material as it is. When you need more, make more up.

    Try to use the resource goodscents. Its invaluable, and provides clues as to the strength of the material. Search the material you would like more information on, on goodscents and go the organoleptics section. This sections suggests what to dilute a material down to and the strength of the material. I dont always agree with it - I feel like it sometimes underestimates the strength of some aromachemicals. Having said that goodscents is an incredible resource.

    Depending on the outcome I want I usually use patchouli and bergamot and most materials neat. I dilute the ones that are very potent to make dosing easier.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Formulation %

    That you both for your feedback.. I guess it’s like anything new it takes you a good while to get your head round certain things.. so if I had 10% ingredients “ oils “ would I be able to make 30/70 mixes? Or would you need to use the ‘ pure ‘ form for that? As now I’m currently just making some of the oils I have into 10% dilutions and can already smell some are more pleasant and if you can make 30/70 mixes as a example how would you go on adding alcohol if they were diluted in it down to 10%

  5. #5
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    Someone in another thread (Bill Roberts) helped me with this very same question, he says:

    First usually if wanting to make a 20% product, the great majority of materials used would not have been prediluted to 10%.

    Not that one may not be able to do it, but it's inconvenient.

    If having to do it, determine the total weight of aromamaterials, determine the total amount of diluent (alcohol or other) needed, which is four times that, subtract the amount of diluent used already from your diluted aromamaterials, and add the remainder.

    Simple example:

    Formula is Hedione (undiluted) 200, Sampaquita (diluted for some reason to 10%) 600, Galaxolide (50%) 200.

    Your total aromamaterials, not counting their diluents, add to 360.

    Multiplying that by 4, you need 1440 total diluent.

    You already have 540 from your diluted Sampaquita, and 100 from your Galaxolide, total of 640.

    Therefore you need to add alcohol of 1440-640, which is 800.

    And to check that calculation:

    Diluent: 800 added at end, 540 in the Sampaquita, 100 in the Galaxolide, total 1440.
    Aromamaterials: 200 Hedione, 60 from the Sampaquita, 100 from the Galaxolide, total 360.
    Grand total, 1440 + 360 = 1800
    360/1800 = 20%

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    Or to simplify ^
    Add the net total of weight of every ingredient added, then subtract the ingredients diluted weight, then determine (via division) how much more carrier ethanol is needed for say 15% (EdP)

  7. #7
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    Someone in another thread (Bill Roberts) helped me with this very same question, he says:
    Yes, Bills solution works, but you have to consider the following effect:

    If you have material A diluted to 10% this special material in the solution can never be of higher concentation as 10%. You can still make a perfume of 20% if you have another material B of higher concentration, thus using the alcohol of the A material as solvent for both. But the material A will be always less than 10% in the solution.

    Say you have rose absolute prediluted in alcohol to 10%. And you have pure sandalwood of 100%

    Now you would like to have a perfume of 20% concentration so, that there is 10% of rose absolute and 10% of sandalwood.
    - Well, this is not possible.

    Example

    In 10 g of rose absolute prediluted to 10% there is 1 g rose absolute.

    Adding 1 g of pure sandalwood EO renders a perfume of 18.18% - but the rose absolute is only of 9.09%

    Adding 2 g of pure sandalwood EO renders a perfume of 25% - but the rose absolute is only of 8.33%

    So the proportion of a certain substance in the whole will always be less as the predilution.

    With some necessary exceptions, most natural materials are prediluted only for formulation - and prediluted to 10% because of money-saving. The perfumes then are made of pure materials. And for best results they may rest for some weeks in pure concentration, before adding any alcohol.

  8. #8
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post

    Now you would like to have a perfume of 20% concentration so, that there is 10% of rose absolute and 10% of sandalwood.
    - Well, this is not possible.
    im not sure how i follow that this is not possible.

    one example could be:

    1gr of full concentrate oil/notes in 4gr perfumers alcohol = 20% EDP concentration; assuming we are using all ingredients at full strength (no pre dilutions)

    Now, in your accord blending stage....if you make 1gr total weight consisting of 2 accords:
    - 0.5g rose @ 100% concentrate
    - 0.5g woods @ 10% concentrate (diluted)

    this equals to 0.55g of weight "concentrate" with 0.45g weight of dilution

    Now if you wanted to make this a 20% EDP perfume, all you do is mix in additional 3.55g of perfumers alcohol,....because the original intentional 4gr of perfumers alcohol isnt needed because one of the diluted notes already contained some alcohol in it ....thus 4g - (minus) 0.45g (from the pr diluted accord) = 3.55g of additional alcohol to make a 20% EDP total concentration.

    in theory, when making a blend of anything....when you're making accords/notes of (how many drops or grams) of anything, you should be taking notes of how much is concentrate and how much is dilution....so in the very end when your ready to dilute the entirety to make a bottle for wearing....you have to add up the weight of concentrate AND the weight of the oiled dilutions, ....before you even add in any more perfumers alcohol to mix your EDP to wear.

    I could be totally wrong, but this just makes sense to me....

  9. #9
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Formulation %

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    ... 0.5g rose @ 100% concentrate ...
    You changed the preconditions of my example saying that you still have rose absolute at 100% What I say ist that you can only decrease the concentration of the prediluted material:

    In your example, you have wood EO prediluted at 10% In your mixture the concentration of the wood EO is only 5% You can not increase it anymore.

    Some few materials must be prediluted. Beyond them: building perfumes from prediluted materials involves challenging maths. You will have to focus more on the calculations as on the artistic part. Perfumes are made best of pure materials.

    Saying that a material prediluted to 10% can be only of less concentration in the whole is trivial, but working with it can be difficult.

    There are in this context three ways to mix a perfume. All three smell different to me, the first easy detectable to be the best - the last being of lower quality. At least when using high quality natural materials (I have no experiences with ACs):

    1. Mix only pure undiluted oils (with very few exceptions). Let it
    rest for about 3 weeks. Add pure ethanol 95% so, that the perfume
    concentration is 20% Let it rest for another 5 weeks.

    1. Mix only pure undiluted oils (with very few exceptions). Add
    immediately pure ethanol 95% so, that the perfume concentration is
    20%. Let it rest for 8 weeks.

    2. Mix oils prediluted to 20% together. Let it rest for 8 weeks thus
    obtaining a perfume of 20% concentration.

    It takes about 6 months for case 3. to approach the odour of case 1. (in this time citruses reach the end of their shelf life) and it is newer the same. This may be different for using synthetics. As I suspect, professionals do not have time to care about this subtleties.


    When doing a formulation, things are different. All materials are prediluted, mostly to 10% Sometimes I redo the formulation at 20% to recognise some hidden notes which can hardly be detected at 10% -: Try to mix a citrus top note, maybe containing yellow mandarine and the like, with 10% dilutions and with 20% dilutions and you will experience how it affects your judgment on proportions. During this creation of the formulation I do not care about the concentration of the whole, I note the weights and do the math later.

    Saying that a material prediluted to 10% can be only of less concentration in the whole is trivial, but working with it can be difficult.
    Last edited by Ivor Joedy; 27th February 2020 at 03:43 PM.




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