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Thread: Faceted perfume

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  1. #1
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    Default Faceted perfume

    To my mind, most perfumes are faceted. That is, a perfume's evolution is rarely perceived linear; notes keep coming and going. I believe the term faceted has been used for marketing purposes. Mostly in order to confuse the buyers even more than the perfume pyramid does.
    Nonetheless, there are perfumes I like to think of as more faceted than others. Havana by Aramis seems to me dissonant pretty much as long as it lasts. I guess it tries to encompass everything about a gentleman in a Caribbean metropol. Rum, cigars Hemingway and Salsa Cubana. Yet it manages to be perfectly appealing at any given short whiff of a moment. It's a brilliant fragrance. It manages to pulse the way Havana's streets pulse with nightlife.

    But how to create a truly faceted perfume? Just putting lots of random stuff results in a mess. I thought I'd approach the issue structurally. A few days ago I started a project with a very solid foundation and with strict rules of perfume architecture. If all goes well I'll blend the final version later today but the description of the blending process will come bit by bit. Meanwhile, please feel free to share whatever you like to share; thoughts about faceted perfumes most welcome.

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    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Structures

    What is the difference between facetedness and complexity here?

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    Default Re: Structures

    You likely need to experiment how long your ingredients last at different dilutions and group up the materials for every period of time i.e every 30 mins across the total intended period.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    I think that Perfumes can be composed in so many manners.
    I'm not known for simplistic perfumes, but for complexity.
    My newest client requested two, two noted fragrances, but that didn't stop me from making a lot of complexity based on those two notes requested.

    But there is nothing wrong with easy simple two or three main noted fragrances.
    You could think of it in terms of color theory for Art, with complimentary colors, split compliments, analogous complimentary color schemes, and a triad color scheme.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: Structures

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    What is the difference between facetedness and complexity here?
    I'd say faceted things retain complexity when we look at them past detail. Mars' topography is far more complex than Earth's but Mars is essentially a red dust ball whereas Earth has oceans, continents and ice caps. Whether this sort of distinction makes sense in perfumery is my main motivation in this project. I'll explain all in detail in time.

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    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Structures

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    I'd say faceted things retain complexity when we look at them past detail.
    I think, not necessarily. In another field, I would say:

    Complexity considers parts and the way they build a new whole, even without many facetes. It relates to the problem of emergence.

    Facetedness is the way something, even not complex, reveals different aspects of itself, maybe under different conditions.

    A pretty naiv picture:

    Diamond consists of only one element, carbon. Ruby consists of aluminum, chromium and oxygen. Even the triangular crystal lattice of ruby is slightly more complex as that of diamond.
    But grinding them, this does not seem to play a big role - which of them can reveal more facettes under different conditions?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    i think faceted should not be interchanged with complexity, or even with richness. even the most minimalistic fragrance can be faceted, IMO it simply starts with the choice of materials and how they are blended. e.g. think about symroxan, it shows many facets in itself. but blending it with for example benzyl salicylate will more or less merge its facets.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    I'm currently testing my second and final blend for this project. Will share some insights soon.
    Meanwhile, a sketch of the approach to making a faceted perfume I used. It's nerdy when formalised but not really revelatory so bear with me.

    Starting point is a fairly small number of notes/ingredients. The ingredient list will grow very fast in the process. I chose (L)ime, (G)eranium, (C)edar (V)anilla. I'll call these nodes so that they're not confused with perfume notes.

    There are three operations:

    • Node blow up. That is add materials that will increase the presence of the node. Like combining vanilla with coumarin, heliotropin etc. Adding nuance is frequently used in all sorts of arts; certainly in perfume making too.
    • Face operation. If a bunch of already existing nodes constitutes something meaningful, an accord, add materials that will increase the presence of this accord. For instance Stemone and gamma - decalactone sketch a fig accord. Adding Methyl Laitone, ethyl acetoacetate, Melonal will give it extra support.
    • Node operation. If a bunch of already existing nodes together with an extra material constitutes an accord, add the new material as a new node. For instance having bergamot and geranium in a blend one might consider adding some lavender and make a nod towards fougere theme.


    So following these structural guidelines I set off trying to blend a faceted perfume. Frankly, with little hope of success. In fact, while blending I kept composing a note about how this formal approach fails to tackle at crafting a faceted perfume.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    The first formula:

    Ethylene brassylate 1140 Clementine 120 Allyl hexanoate 30
    Bicyclononalactone 1130 Black pepper 110 Firascone 30
    Sylvamber 840 Okoumal 110 Safraleine 30
    Hedione 650 Benzoe 90 Vetiveryl acetate Haiti 25
    Cyclomethylene citronellol 560 Coumarin 80 Anther 25
    Iralia 440 Vetiverol extra 80 Muscone laevo 25
    beta - Ionone 430 Ethyl - 2 methoxybenzoate 80 Labdanum 22
    Symroxane 330 c3H 80 Khusinil 21
    Lime terpenes 300 gamma - Hexalactone 70 Ethyl vanillin 21
    Ethyl linalool 290 delta - Octalactone 70 Ambroxan 21
    Cedar Atlas 290 Orivone 70 Centifolether 18
    Geraniol fine 270 Lemon 60 Methyl Pampelmousse 14
    Bergamot 180 Koavone 60 Triplal 14
    Grapefruit 180 Eugenol 60 Cinnamyl cinnamate 14
    Lavender 180 gamma - Decalactone 50 beta - Damascenone 7
    Orange 7 - fold 170 Muscenone 50 alpha - Damascone 7
    DHM 160 Patchouly light Indonesia 50 delta - Damascone 7
    Geranium 150 Vanillin 40 AAG 7
    Rhodinol ex. citronella 130 Isoeugenol 40 Ethyl propionate 7
    Ethyl acetoacetate 130 Methyl cinnamate 30 Benzaldehye 4
    beta - Dihydroionone 120 Mousse chene Fireco MIP 30 Creosol 1
    Cedar (J. mexicana) 120 para - Methoxy cinnamaldehyde 30 Total 10000

    I thought I'd explore gender theme. It's supposed to be a masculine perfume with feminine twists. I like very much the way geranium theme in Geranium pour Monsieur morphed into rose theme in Portrait of a Lady, both by Frederic Malle. So one of the facets in my blend is geranium combined with powerful rosy materials.

    By the way, pavomi, I totally share your sentiment towards Symroxane. The second formula has even more of it in it.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Wow that's a complex formula xii, it's well balanced? What would you categorize it as?

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by chyprefresh View Post
    Wow that's a complex formula xii, it's well balanced? What would you categorize it as?
    Kind of you to ask. The formula size is way outside my comfort zone. While evaluating it I noticed it preformed best in cold air or from some distance.
    What I found surprisingly rewarding was the control over the ingredients' performance in the finished blend.

    It's my first go at intentionally faceted perfume but it relies heavily on the lightweight amber fragrance I blended just before:

    Bicyclononalactone 2250 Norsandyl 50
    Ethylene brassylate 1890 Cedar Atlas 50
    Sylvamber 1520 Ethyl vanillin 40
    Hedione 1110 delta - Octalactone 40
    Cyclomethylene citronellol 810 Lime terpenes 40
    Ethyl linalool 530 Ambroxan 30
    Iralia 230 Patchouly light Indonesia 20
    Elemi resinoid 190 Labdanum 20
    Rhodinol ex. citronella 170 Heliotropex N 20
    Geraniol fine 140 beta - Damascenone 10
    Coumarin 140 alpha - Damascone 10
    Orange 7 - fold 130 delta - Damascone 10
    Benzoe 120 DHM 10
    Amyl cinnamyl alcohol 70 Triplal 10
    Vanillin 70 AAG 10
    alpha - Hexyl cinnamal 70 Methyl laitone 8
    gamma - Hexalactone 70 Ethyl maltol 1
    Vetiveryl acetate Haiti 60 Ethyl propionate 1
    gamma - Decalactone 50 Total 10000

    It's supposed to be a seriously disneyed version of a serious amber. If New York by Parfums de Nicolaï were put against it, Allure pour Homme by Channel could be found midway. The formula is rather useful but should be skimmed before serious application. I needed some amber for my geranium but I needed it mild. For my conflicted gender theme I chose Insense by Givenchy as one of the inspirations. A perfume heavy with florals that wouldn't enjoy company of a serious amber.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Tried to visualise the process but failed...



    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by xii; 21st February 2020 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Let's wrap it up. The second formula (slightly simplified):
    Hedione 1400 Benzoe 230
    Ethylene brassylate 1400 Cedar Atlas 120
    Sylvamber 1400 Eugenol 30
    Symroxane 700 Allyl hexanoate 30
    alpha - Isomethyl ionone 700 gamma - Decalactone 30
    Cyclomethylene citronellol 700 Rose crystals 5% in PEA 30
    Geraniol fine 450 Vanillin 30
    beta - Ionone 350 Cinnamyl cinnamate 20
    Ethyl acetoacetate 350 AAG 20
    Lime terpenes 350 Ebanol 20
    Cassis base 345 F 230 Firascone 20
    Patchouly MD Indonesia 230 Methyl cinnamate 6
    Vertofix Cœur 230 Ethyl propionate 1
    Ambroxan 230 alpha - Damascone 1
    Bicyclononalactone 230 beta - Damascenone 1
    Geranium 230 delta - Damascone 1
    Muscenone 230 Total 10000

    I blended it first without Sylvamber, Hedione and ethylene brassylate.

    One of the ideas were "sweet lime" based on lime and vanilla. This can be extended to "Cuba libre" accord

    Lime terpenes 80
    Bicyclononalactone 10
    Benzoe 10
    Vanillin 5
    Cinnamyl cinnamate 3
    delta - Damascone 2

    But it's not easy to integrate this with other motives so I added a "fruity juniper" accord:

    Ethyl acetoacetate 45
    Cassis base 345 F 30
    Cedar Atlas 16
    Allyl hexanoate 6
    Ebanol 3

    Big, rosy and slightly minty geranium:

    Cyclomethylene citronellol 50
    Geraniol fine 30
    Geranium 15
    Rose crystals 5% in PEA 2
    Firascone 2
    alpha - Damascone 1

    An accord I previously used in a hinoki themed composition:

    Lime terpenes 30
    Vertofix Cœur 25
    Cassis base 345 F 20
    Patchouly MD Indonesia 20
    Eugenol 5

    It connects lime wit cedar.

    Entire formula can be parsed into such bits, facets if you will, and that's the way it's been blended.

    Without Hedione, Sylvamber and ethylene brassylate the blend is vibrant but harsh and unbalanced. I still performed a much more careful blending of the facets but it seemed I'd need lots of trials to get things right. Adding Hedione, Sylvamber and brassylate fixes all the problems instantly but the blend loses all chance to become faceted. So what I'm going to do from now on is blending without these and adding them in much moderate amounts once the "raw" blend seems right.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    When I read your thoughts on this topic, I get the impression that you are trying to develop a perfect mathematical formula (I’m talking only about your way to develop the fragrance) that should work well at the time of creation (in highest manifestation) an object of art. I completely agree that your idea is inherently absolutely correct and has a place to be, but it seems to me that if at some point you don’t connect your feelings and intuition when creating a fragrance and if you don’t will carefully listen what the materials themselves tell you and focus on those moments when, for example, when two notes are foregather, they produce like a small moment of beauty (like a little illumination) and always follow to this quality, your approach will not be successful.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Indeed, I'm not very attached to my materials. If the ones I have, 1000 give or take, were replaced by others I'd be just fine in a month or so.

    I'd really like to use my intuition and feelings, Dmitriy. I just feel I lack means of expression because of my poor command over the medium. Learning new materials hasn't been of much help for a while already. Besides, a good guitarist will improvise a great solo within the pentatonic scale if need be.

    What I'm doing here is trying to isolate a technique to practise so that I can engage with difficulty. Isolation is a form of restriction. Here the restriction can be summarised in one rule:

    Do not add a material just because it makes the blend perform better.

    The benefit of practising with this restriction is, I hope, more opportunity for structure therefore more means to express intuitions and feelings.

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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Ok, I hope your technique works for you. As I understand it, any kind of art in its essence deals with the search and display of harmony using various expressive means. And I think the answer to your first question on this topic will be: To create a completely faceted perfume you need to mix a lot of NON-random materials that are in harmony with each other and form a new whole reflecting the image you conceived... as has been said above, faceting (complexity) is not an essential thing in art, but harmony is yes.))

  17. #17
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Faceted perfume

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post
    as has been said above, faceting (complexity) is not an essential thing in art, but harmony is yes.
    I am sure many artists would state that the opposite is true. For serious art harmony is not important. But complexity here is a necessary, despite not sufficient condition.

    As long as you stay with your melody on the black piano keys, you cannot escape harmony. This is why chinese musicians are sitting in classic european orchestras and not vice versa.




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