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  1. #1

    Default That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Hi, I hope my post finds everyone well. I am curious to know what are the key ingredients to consider to create an accord that gives the rich DNA found similar in below fragrances:

    Penhaligon's Halfeti
    Penhaligon's The Blazing Mr. Sam
    Penhaligon's Paithani
    Montale Oud Dreams
    Boucheron Oud de Carthage
    Chopard Oud Malaki
    Costume National Homme*
    Rasasi Satoor Waaw*

    I know the last 2* has a nice blend of cinnamon and cloves, but still manages to give the sweet-spicy-oud-amber of the ones above. There's something common there which I am yet to figure out. It could be an amber, leather and saffron mix, but so far my attempts did not come close.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by emrego; 6th March 2020 at 11:48 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Likely the best you'll get are educated guesses. These companies use complex and ambiguous formulas, so what you're looking for could be 1 or 20 things. You'll probably have to be a lot more specific and use terms that can narrow down your search area, along with an understanding of what said materials do and how to use them. Trying to copy niche perfumes is a near-futile effort without a GCMS.

  3. #3

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by chyprefresh View Post
    Likely the best you'll get are educated guesses. These companies use complex and ambiguous formulas, so what you're looking for could be 1 or 20 things. You'll probably have to be a lot more specific and use terms that can narrow down your search area, along with an understanding of what said materials do and how to use them. Trying to copy niche perfumes is a near-futile effort without a GCMS.
    Thanks for the reply chyprefresh. I completely agree with you and I am fully aware the immense costs to even attempt to create something even resembling a particular commercial fragrance. However I was more going for an accord suggestion that would (even in the slightest bit) to give a sense of these perfumes and many more that is introduced in recent years. A dupe attempt is not what I have in mind by any means. For example, a basic accord of Cedarwood, Coumarin, Bergamot, Lavender, Patchouli, Citronellol immediately gives a feeling of a lot of known fougeres, on a very high level, but still it does. I was going for some same "essentials" to begin with.

    I do have quite some ACs as well as some naturals (around 120 different ones in total). So far I was playing with, for this particular effort (woody spicy warm amber):

    Naturals:
    Labdanum resin 45% TEC
    Cedarwood
    Amyris (West Indian)
    Olibanum 50% DPG
    Cypress
    Blackpepper


    ACs:
    Cinnamal Aldehyde 25%
    Wood Base Mysore 20%
    Other Sandalwoods like Javanol, Bacdanol, Sandalore, Santaliff
    Iso-E, Timbersilk, Sylvamber
    Galaxolide, Zenolide, Ambrettolide, Tonalid
    Ambermax 10%
    Ethylvanillin 10%
    Veratralaldehyde 40%
    Safraleine
    Various leathers like Suedral, Isobutyl Quinoline, Acetofenon etc.
    Dorinia SA E
    Coumarin
    ...

    I think I am more looking for the same vibe rather than similarity. I hope it makes more sense now Cheers!
    Last edited by emrego; 5th March 2020 at 09:12 PM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Have you tried adding Oud?

  5. #5

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainperfume View Post
    Have you tried adding Oud?
    Yes! Forgot to mention that, I used Oud (Firbest) but I’m afraid it’s not the best out there. I now have some 10ml accord samples that I will test in upcoming days. I hope results will be better but I really hope someone drops some boundaries as to bring focus
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  6. #6
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    I used to have a bottle of Halfeti until it tried to fly, failed and cracked all over the gym floor. Norlimbanol and a low dose of a rose accord. There's undoubtedly a few other woodies in there, but sniff some norlimbanol and you'll kick yourself for not thinking of it first.

  7. #7

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    I used to have a bottle of Halfeti until it tried to fly, failed and cracked all over the gym floor. Norlimbanol and a low dose of a rose accord. There's undoubtedly a few other woodies in there, but sniff some norlimbanol and you'll kick yourself for not thinking of it first.
    Oh I feel the pain now! Sorry for your loss! I do have Norlimbanol and i love it - however it didnt occur to me to include in this project! Thanks I will have a different look again to my Halfeti and and the new 10ml iteration of my accord.
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  8. #8
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by emrego View Post
    Oh I feel the pain now! Sorry for your loss! I do have Norlimbanol and i love it - however it didnt occur to me to include in this project! Thanks I will have a different look again to my Halfeti and and the new 10ml iteration of my accord.
    Did you have a sniff ? What do you think .. halfeti = norlimbanol ?

  9. #9

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    I find Firmenich’s Oud Synth 010760 E to be one of the most usable Oud bases. Its noticeably oud, but stripped down to the bare essential sweet dark woodiness without any of the barnyard/animal notes typical of oud. It won’t take you all the way by itself, but it can easily be taken in different directions with some other woody ingredients like Vertofix, Trimofix, Cedrenol, Norlimbanol, Iso E, Okoumal, etc.

    CN Homme is the only one of the fragrances you listed that I’ve smelled before, so I can’t help much there. My personal reccomendation would be to try to make a similar accord to the base/background of the smell you’re after using as few ingredients as possible (try using only 3-4 contrasting ingredients to find the best combination with as few off-notes as possible). Once you have the general vibe of the fragrance down, then you can work on adding the details in small amounts, to taste.

    If you feel like it might be an amber/leather/spice mixed with oud type of fragrance, I’d start by trying to find a balance between Oud Synth, Vertofix, Suederal, and Trimofix. You’ll be using significantly more Vertofix (5x) than the other ingredients.

  10. #10

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    Did you have a sniff ? What do you think .. halfeti = norlimbanol ?
    Sorry, wanted to give a full day break before i do. I am sniffing at the moment, Norlimbanol (@20% in DPG) on testing paper and Halfeti on my arm. It wasn’t very clear in the opening but as Halfeti settles down I think you might be onto something here. It could work with Cedroxyde to give Halfeti’s underlying dry woods. I will def try variations with Norlimbanol. I might be getting some Ambermax as well from Halfeti! However, without finding out the warm spicy accord that is the real attraction of these scents I wont be satisfied That honey-ish sweet spices, oud and leather aspects. It’s almost a template now in many perfumes and not even unique anymore. I expect to at least come close on the DNA.

    When I have more time in the weekend I am planning to write down my accord formulas in detail to give more understanding on my path (accurate or not) to readers. Cheers for the interest!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Burke View Post
    I find Firmenich’s Oud Synth 010760 E to be one of the most usable Oud bases. Its noticeably oud, but stripped down to the bare essential sweet dark woodiness without any of the barnyard/animal notes typical of oud. It won’t take you all the way by itself, but it can easily be taken in different directions with some other woody ingredients like Vertofix, Trimofix, Cedrenol, Norlimbanol, Iso E, Okoumal, etc.

    CN Homme is the only one of the fragrances you listed that I’ve smelled before, so I can’t help much there. My personal reccomendation would be to try to make a similar accord to the base/background of the smell you’re after using as few ingredients as possible (try using only 3-4 contrasting ingredients to find the best combination with as few off-notes as possible). Once you have the general vibe of the fragrance down, then you can work on adding the details in small amounts, to taste.

    If you feel like it might be an amber/leather/spice mixed with oud type of fragrance, I’d start by trying to find a balance between Oud Synth, Vertofix, Suederal, and Trimofix. You’ll be using significantly more Vertofix (5x) than the other ingredients.
    Thanks Burke! I think having the Oud without animalic aspects is a key thing here, as I don't get "any" barnyard/animalic thing from any of the fragrances mentioned in initial message.

    I'll check if I can order Oud Synth and Trimofix soon. Already read very good things about both. And luckily Vertofix and Suedral are 2 things I enjoy a lot at my disposal. Cheers!
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  12. #12

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    If you're IFRA compliant, be aware that the Firmenich Oud Synthetic has relatively high amounts of furfural which limit its concentration in the final product to ~0.4%


  13. #13

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by editorinscent View Post
    If you're IFRA compliant, be aware that the Firmenich Oud Synthetic has relatively high amounts of furfural which limit its concentration in the final product to ~0.4%
    Appreciate the heads up! I am not IFRA compliant (yet), as a beginner with only a year of experience, I read and note a lot for when the time comes
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  14. #14
    Basenotes Member aberdeengrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    I just got some trisamber yesterday - and it's very similar to the Halfeti/norlimbanol but slightly more oudy. If you were to smell trisamber and then smell another of the penhaligons perfume, say as sawira, then you'd start to suspect that the perfumer was a bit of a lazy bugger and made a bunch of perfumes with each one in the trade routes collection based on a new AC and then added a few floral notes.

  15. #15

    Default Re: That warm-spicy, woody accord - Suggestions please!

    Quote Originally Posted by aberdeengrey View Post
    I just got some trisamber yesterday - and it's very similar to the Halfeti/norlimbanol but slightly more oudy. If you were to smell trisamber and then smell another of the penhaligons perfume, say as sawira, then you'd start to suspect that the perfumer was a bit of a lazy bugger and made a bunch of perfumes with each one in the trade routes collection based on a new AC and then added a few floral notes.
    Oh that got me excited! An AC that might resemble the smooth amber accord I am looking for, sounds like heaven And yes, the accord I was trying to explain is actually used in more Penhaligon's fragrances, in Paithani, in The Blazing Mr. Sam as well (updated my original post with these too). A velvety, sensual, spicy, milky, woody amber accord. For someone smelled more perfumes than the average Joe, that accord would be very known. I thought it is one that can be resembled by some common EOs or ACs, but so far no luck. I added Trisamber to my wishlist, thank you very much for the suggestion. It might be some time that I order my next batch of "ingredients to learn" as I already have quite some in the curve.
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