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  1. #1
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    Default Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Iím no expert but an example is ambergris vs ambroxan. Ambergris seems like a pain to get while a synthetic compound can be made in lab. Eventually why bother with natural hard to get ingredients when can replace with cheaper synthetic alternatives.

    Which are next on the chopping block?

    Iris? Vetiver from Haiti or wherever? Calabrian bergamot? Who do to these places when can get fake versions by IFF and firmenich and givaudan.

    Menís fragrances will continue to evolve into what we see in dept stores

  2. #2

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Well, I hate to break it to you, but fragrances at all price tiers outside of some very boutique houses have already virtually abandoned real ambergris.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Thankfully creed still uses and that’s why prices high. But I worry someday even a company like creed will be forced to move away from 100% natural ingredients

  4. #4

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Creed's ambergris ain't what it used to be. I think they're either getting it from inferior sources or they're using less of the real stuff and bolstering it with synthetics.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    Creed's ambergris ain't what it used to be. I think they're either getting it from inferior sources or they're using less of the real stuff and bolstering it with synthetics.
    Why? Has it become too expensive or running short on supply?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron View Post
    Why? Has it become too expensive or running short on supply?
    Cost-cutting to get their profit margins up prior to their sale, probably.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Ambergris is rare and extremely expensive, and will remain so unless sperm whale populations dramatically increase. Not likely in our lifetimes, if ever.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Just like any industry that can use syntetics in lieu of the real thing, they will do so if it achieves their goals. "Goals" is what varies. Some may do it for cost-cutting, some because the synthetic might have the scent profile that matches what they're trying to get. The fad is like a pendulum, kinda like how ambroxan became the in thing. Eventually, there will be blow back and it will swing the other way.

    I don't think syntetics will ever be the only way because there's still a scent profile that can only be achieved with a combination of naturals. Plus, you'll have discerning noses that will demand some naturals for certain ingredients or notes.
    Currently wearing: Vibrant Leather by Zara

  9. #9

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    When you're dealing with brands that have distribution all over the world then they're dealing mainly with synthetics. There's no way to know for sure, but I'd estimate nearly all fragrances that say "Haitian Vetiver", "Egyptian Cumin", "Italian Bergamont" aren't actually using naturals from that region but rather are attempting to recreate the smell of these with synthetics. What's the difference really between Egyptian Cumin EO and a synthetic accord that smells similar when it comes to fragrances? And then of course there's probably instances where it's all marketing and has nothing to do with recreating or using naturals, but rather just what sounds better on a website. Look at MFK's ouds that claim to have Laotian oud when it obviously does not for instance.

    The question truly is why bother with naturals if synthetics can be as good or even better? I'm sure there will be compositions where a specific ingredient is needed and no substitute can be used, but going forward I don't see the reasoning behind mass appealing fragrances needing naturals.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Seems like the general trend in all commoditys in our capitalo-material world - well since industrialisation! Faster, cheaper, easier, more profit.
    YET I'm certain there will still be a demand for and those who cater for it, for naturals - see parallels in the organic / vegan trends for example? Or like the £400 (organic, hand made, rare cacao etc.) chocolate bars I saw on this 'world of chocolate' programme - someones buying it huh?!
    Currently wearing: Lalique White by Lalique

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    Ambergris is rare and extremely expensive, and will remain so unless sperm whale populations dramatically increase. Not likely in our lifetimes, if ever.
    The sad truth.
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals on Basenotes don't warrant or deserve my or other Basenoters' acknowledgement or respect.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    Cost-cutting to get their profit margins up prior to their sale, probably.
    I agree
    <div class="bnsotd"><b>Currently wearing:</b> <a href="ID26148387.html"><img src="http://www.basenotes.net/photos/products/33/26148387-7393.jpg"> Carven L'Eau Intense by Carven</a></div>

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    I think ifra will ban most naturals at some point. In 100 years squeezing oils from formerly living things will be considered barbaric.
    Itís tragic to think that heroic manís great destiny is to become economic man, that men will be reduced to craven creatures who crawl across the globe competing for money, who spend their nights dreaming up new ways to swindle each other.
    Currently wearing: Viking by Creed

  14. #14

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron View Post
    Why? Has it become too expensive or running short on supply?
    Ambergris - all kinds of it - has always been too expensive and short on supply. 1) Only a certain amount of sperm whales produce it, and sperm whale population (as with many other whales) has decreased drastically. 2) There's no "Ambergris" farm. You find it or not. Even found, then the maturity of a good ambergris puts the chances even lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron View Post
    Thankfully creed still uses and thatís why prices high. But I worry someday even a company like creed will be forced to move away from 100% natural ingredients
    Is this proven ? I don't think so. Creed is a shady company with little proof of their heritage as they claim, and I believe they are using synthetics (which is just fine) as much as other houses.
    Currently wearing: Tommy by Tommy Hilfiger

  15. #15

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Who do you think advises the IFRA on what is safe and what isn’t? The same people that work for companies that produce the fakes /synthetics /chemicals /molecules/ aromachems.
    This organisation is called the RIFM (Research Institute of Fragrance Materials).

    Their advisory board consists of-

    James Romine, RIFM, Chair
    Greg Adamson, Givaudan
    Anne Marie Api, RIFM
    Martina Bianchini, IFRA
    Danielle Botelho, RIFM
    Luciana Castro, Firmenich
    Christopher Choi, Takasago
    Catherine Gadras, Robertet
    Xing Han, IFF
    Rob Harrington, Arylessence
    Frank A Jones, SCJ
    Felix Klug, BASF
    Boris Mueller, Symrise
    Bhuvana Nageshwaran, Ultra International Ltd
    Alan Osbiston, CPL
    Jane Rose, P&G
    Christen Sachse-Vasquez, RIFM
    Veronique Scailteur, Chanel
    Matthias Vey, IFRA

    Does anybody here find that odd? The same people that produce ingredients that go into the fragrances we use deciding if they are safe or not?!
    What do you think happens to the ingredients they don’t collectively produce, like naturals? They become ‘unsafe’ in favour of, you guessed it, their own product. It gradually allows these chemical companies to corner and control the fragrance ingredient market by outlawing what isn’t their product.



    currently enjoying

    Mousse Illuminee -- Incident Diplomatique -- Baccarat Rouge 540 -- Fahrenheit Parfum
    Patrick -- Green Irish Tweed -- Grand Soir
    Currently wearing: Spice and Wood by Creed

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    Cost-cutting to get their profit margins up prior to their sale, probably.
    Most likely quality will suffer as a consequence for such rational.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    In case I’ve been misunderstood, wherever these chemical companies can produce a synthetic product cheaper than they can extract a natural they will switch production to that synthetic chemical and as long as they can successfully sell the dupe of the natural, the natural will be in line for getting axed by way of finding a study which shows some/any data which can be interpreted as showing allergic reaction.

    So to answer cameron’s question, yes in the future all naturals will eventually be replaced in commercial perfumery as long as chemical companies run their game on the unsuspecting public. Too much truth for one day?
    currently enjoying

    Mousse Illuminee -- Incident Diplomatique -- Baccarat Rouge 540 -- Fahrenheit Parfum
    Patrick -- Green Irish Tweed -- Grand Soir
    Currently wearing: Spice and Wood by Creed

  18. #18

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron View Post
    I’m no expert but an example is ambergris vs ambroxan. Ambergris seems like a pain to get while a synthetic compound can be made in lab. Eventually why bother with natural hard to get ingredients when can replace with cheaper synthetic alternatives.

    Which are next on the chopping block?

    Iris? Vetiver from Haiti or wherever? Calabrian bergamot? Who do to these places when can get fake versions by IFF and firmenich and givaudan.

    Men’s fragrances will continue to evolve into what we see in dept stores
    cameron, do you prefer more synthetics/chemicals or more naturals in your fragrances?
    currently enjoying

    Mousse Illuminee -- Incident Diplomatique -- Baccarat Rouge 540 -- Fahrenheit Parfum
    Patrick -- Green Irish Tweed -- Grand Soir
    Currently wearing: Spice and Wood by Creed

  19. #19

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by PStoller View Post
    Ambergris is rare and extremely expensive, and will remain so unless sperm whale populations dramatically increase. Not likely in our lifetimes, if ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    The sad truth.

    Recently saw one of those addictive Attenborough shows and mixed in with all the bad news on various animals it talked about how whales had made a big comeback, but I couldn't remember what kind. A quick bit of searching seems to show it may not have been specifically sperm whales but the news is still not all bad. Globally sperm whales are currently listed as "vulnerable" but are classed as "endangered" by US and some other countries.

    This is from the NOAA: "
    Commercial whaling from 1800 to the 1980’s greatly decreased sperm whale population worldwide. The International Whaling Commission placed a moratorium on commercial whaling in 1986. The species is still recovering, and its numbers are likely increasing.
    Currently, there is no exact accounting of the total number of sperm whales worldwide. The best estimate of worldwide sperm whale population is between 300,000 and 450,000 individuals. "

    Brief search on this showed most sources think the numbers are increasing and off the low, but not back to where they were before commercial hunting. There are also some that disagree with that, and also some specific regions where they have not bounced back.

    The part I found most interesting was this...."They were also hunted for ambergris, a waxy substance that forms around squid beaks in the digestive system". I remembered getting ambergris was not a pleasant job, but had no idea squids had anything to do with it. Coming soon, Creed Squid Noir....

    Now back to your regularly scheduled fragrance programming.....

  20. #20

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    cameron, do you prefer more synthetics/chemicals or more naturals in your fragrances?

    (Not Cameron, but anyway...).....

    The obvious answer is more naturals. But as someone that is generally newer to BN and learning about things more than just "I like this one", the synthetic thing can be both challenging and a bit funny. There doesn't seem to be any class where you go and sample the top 20 synthetic substances. As an example, there are plenty of classes to sample various wine categories, and then have a baseline to draw from. So I'll find something and think it smells pretty good and then see on here that someone says "well really it's just an overload of synthetic B-47 and is crap" or whatever....

    If a certain synthetic is known to be used heavily in a list of 10 fragrances, then maybe you can try those and ID the scent. But if it's in nearly everything, as said about ambroxan or iso-e or whatever, and "everything" surely have a wide range of scent reactions to most, then it gets tricky to me to ID it or be able to say scent A is heavy on synthetics and scent B isn't. If I think something reeks, is it too synthetic? Or is it I just don't like "bulgarian oud"?

    So in the end, although natural scents seems the obvious answer, and perhaps from a health viewpoint might in some cases be better, I'm not sure that it really makes a difference. Especially when there is rarely and proof to back up any comments claiming certain fragrances are using more synthetics than others. It would be pretty interesting to see test results on what really is in many of the favorite fragrances....

  21. #21

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    One more thought.... does anyone really know if better smelling synthetics cost more than those that don't smell so good?


    A corollary or two here, but used to be (pre-inbev) if you did the Anheuser Busch tour they would talk about how they spent more money on the ingredients for Budweiser than for the rest of their beers. But I always thought it was one of their worst tasting ones and the cheaper ones were better. (Sorry UK guys sure it is all swill to you!!!).

    Or another one, a few years back one of the business shows said Papa John's spend more on average per pizza on ingredients than their competitors. That's one of the few chain pizzas I wouldn't eat if it was free, something about it is just nasty. Surely some like it, but it doesn't seem to ever come out on top of any polls for best pizza....

    So spending more in some cases/categories does not always make something better. I wonder if it might be more the expense of spending more time to create the fragrance and try different variations to reach the end product, and the packaging costs, versus just cranking it out, and once it's designed the production cost of the synthetics might be quite close for a Creed versus a Calvin Klein or whatever.....

  22. #22

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodnotes55 View Post
    (Not Cameron, but anyway...).....

    The obvious answer is more naturals. But as someone that is generally newer to BN and learning about things more than just "I like this one", the synthetic thing can be both challenging and a bit funny. There doesn't seem to be any class where you go and sample the top 20 synthetic substances. As an example, there are plenty of classes to sample various wine categories, and then have a baseline to draw from. So I'll find something and think it smells pretty good and then see on here that someone says "well really it's just an overload of synthetic B-47 and is crap" or whatever....

    If a certain synthetic is known to be used heavily in a list of 10 fragrances, then maybe you can try those and ID the scent. But if it's in nearly everything, as said about ambroxan or iso-e or whatever, and "everything" surely have a wide range of scent reactions to most, then it gets tricky to me to ID it or be able to say scent A is heavy on synthetics and scent B isn't. If I think something reeks, is it too synthetic? Or is it I just don't like "bulgarian oud"?

    So in the end, although natural scents seems the obvious answer, and perhaps from a health viewpoint might in some cases be better, I'm not sure that it really makes a difference. Especially when there is rarely and proof to back up any comments claiming certain fragrances are using more synthetics than others. It would be pretty interesting to see test results on what really is in many of the favorite fragrances....
    I get annoyed with synthetic = bad rhetoric. Take for instance Armani's Bois d'Encens. People claim the base is Iso E Super and I have no reason to doubt that. Frankincense can give off a smell of cedar (I say "can" because there are multiple types of frankincense). Iso E Super gives off a smell of cedar. Bois d'Encens is recreating a frankincense incense burning. Ergo, you're going to have a smell of cedar. So when people bash the Iso E Super for being a "cheap" synthetic it's preposterous. Its widespread usage and its availability does not make it a lesser than chemical when used artistically as in the case I've just made. This goes for any known chemicals.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Synthetics aren’t all bad and they have their role to play in perfumery, however if a fragrance is devoid of all naturals it lacks true soul. A perfumer knowing how to use a pallette of ingredients will ultimately create a better fragrance and draw on knowledge of interplay of notes to do so. Would love to see only minimal use of synthetics, as fixatives where absolutely needed and embellishments only, so that a creation would shine on its naturals.

    I’d be happy to live in a world where no new synthetics molecules were created by chemical companies. Just plant up the place with fabulous naturals. The chemical companies wouldn’t be happy as the profit and control would diminish but fantastic perfumery could still continue, in fact it has continued. I’m glad that there are independent perfumers that are carrying the torch forward on creating great fragrances that don’t roll over for the regulations imposed by IFRA.
    currently enjoying

    Mousse Illuminee -- Incident Diplomatique -- Baccarat Rouge 540 -- Fahrenheit Parfum
    Patrick -- Green Irish Tweed -- Grand Soir
    Currently wearing: Spice and Wood by Creed

  24. #24

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    Synthetics aren’t all bad and they have their role to play in perfumery, however if a fragrance is devoid of all naturals it lacks true soul. A perfumer knowing how to use a pallette of ingredients will ultimately create a better fragrance and draw on knowledge of interplay of notes to do so. Would love to see only minimal use of synthetics, as fixatives where absolutely needed and embellishments only, so that a creation would shine on its naturals.

    I’d be happy to live in a world where no new synthetics molecules were created by chemical companies. Just plant up the place with fabulous naturals. The chemical companies wouldn’t be happy as the profit and control would diminish but fantastic perfumery could still continue, in fact it has continued. I’m glad that there are independent perfumers that are carrying the torch forward on creating great fragrances that don’t roll over for the regulations imposed by IFRA.
    So you want even more chaos and uncertainty when it comes to purchasing your fragrances? Forget about changes that occur every 5-10 years you're talking about changes that occur every batch. You're talking about Aventus for every perfume. Naturals will always be around as long as the planet and the market can sustain them, but I couldn't care less is the lemon is from Italy or if the lemon smells like a lemon from Italy.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks Otterlake View Post
    Creed's ambergris ain't what it used to be. I think they're either getting it from inferior sources or they're using less of the real stuff and bolstering it with synthetics.
    I don't think you are being far fetched. My older batches bloomed with magnificent ambergris in a magical sense. My current batch, well it's detectable but less of that magical effect I use to get. Your hypothesis might be valid.
    Is the juice worth the squeeze?

  26. #26

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    So you want even more chaos and uncertainty when it comes to purchasing your fragrances? Forget about changes that occur every 5-10 years you're talking about changes that occur every batch. You're talking about Aventus for every perfume. Naturals will always be around as long as the planet and the market can sustain them, but I couldn't care less is the lemon is from Italy or if the lemon smells like a lemon from Italy.
    Erm na..What are you reading?
    There are enough synthetics already. You think they need to design new ones? Uncertainty and chaos? There was no uncertainty and chaos before IFRA. If there has been 'chaos' it started once they started restricting what could go into a fragrance and makers had to take ingredients out or reduce them. What I'm talking about isn't batches. There have been plenty of makers that use a high percentage of naturals and keep consistency in scent from one production run to the next.
    currently enjoying

    Mousse Illuminee -- Incident Diplomatique -- Baccarat Rouge 540 -- Fahrenheit Parfum
    Patrick -- Green Irish Tweed -- Grand Soir
    Currently wearing: Spice and Wood by Creed

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    I prefer naturals. A lot of the dept store stuff smells so synthetic.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbouti View Post
    Erm na..What are you reading?
    There are enough synthetics already. You think they need to design new ones? Uncertainty and chaos? There was no uncertainty and chaos before IFRA. If there has been 'chaos' it started once they started restricting what could go into a fragrance and makers had to take ingredients out or reduce them. What I'm talking about isn't batches. There have been plenty of makers that use a high percentage of naturals and keep consistency in scent from one production run to the next.
    Except for you have nothing to back up your statement with other than wishes and hopes. Prove that any company uses naturals. You like the idea and you like the story they tell you. I absolutely think there should be more synthetics because why not? They accomplish art when used well. What you're saying is asinine a chemical composition is the same every time when you account for all the factors using synthetics, naturals that just is not so. Yes to an extent you can control batches and overall you may not notice a difference or it may be slight, but to deny this denies reality and science.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Natural is better. Creed is best because they are 100% natural.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Will all natural ingredients be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameron View Post
    Natural is better. Creed is best because they are 100% natural.
    I think I disagree there cameron. I think Tom Ford uses all naturals and his fragrances make you sexy and appealing, but creed is a close second. I heard Oliver actually collects the 100% real ambergris they use in every fragrance by hand.




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