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  1. #1

    Default Creating a dry wood base

    So far I have these. Iím going for a dry/driftwood/ beach base

    Sandalwood eo
    Santaliff
    Cedramber
    Cedarwood eo
    Trimofix
    Vetiver acitate
    Orivone

    Also looking to buy Karmawood buy I canít find it at PW. And an ambergris accord if I can source one.

    Is there any other AC recommendations what could be useful for a dry wood base?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    karmawood is for sale at PA

    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...awood-iff.aspx

    Another goodie to try is guiacwood, although it’s a bit of a earthy, spicy dry wood. Not very clean smelling.

    Or even “Clearwood” is a good try. It’s a patchouli, but with the dirty, earthyness taken out.....so your left with nothing but, dry, clean woody Patchoully scent.
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    I have found that Santaliff + Timbersilk gives a driftwood impression IMO

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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Santaliff, Bacdanol, Mysantol are closer to Sandalwood than Karmawood

    For ambergris get Ambroxan, Ambrofix, or Cetalox and throw in a trace of Ambrinol and Indole

  5. #5

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    On ambergris accord:


    I held off essentially forever, that is to say until just last week, on getting genuine ambergris tincture.

    I just received Ambergris Tincture 10%- New Zealand Silver White Gold from PSH and am frankly stunned. The price is, admittedly, rather extreme. If making one ounce of perfume, at the dose I'd prefer to use it would take 6 grams of the tincture (EDIT: About 1.8 grams, the previou was based on thinking 3% concentration.) Five grams is $69; I bought one gram for $14.

    I would definitely recommend getting the one gram amount.

    The only ambergris-type mixture I would highly recommend (that doesn't mean there aren't other good ones) is Fixateur 505e. However it does not smell like this ambergris. Extremely beneficial to many formulas though.

    I'd definitely suggest getting all the materials chyprefresh recommended, if you do not have them already which you may, and playing with combinations to see what you like. (The indole may be useful only for darker ambergris types as a guess.)
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 8th April 2020 at 06:21 PM.

  6. #6
    Super Member SubUmbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by chyprefresh View Post
    Santaliff, Bacdanol, Mysantol are closer to Sandalwood than Karmawood

    For ambergris get Ambroxan, Ambrofix, or Cetalox and throw in a trace of Ambrinol and Indole
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ambrofix another brand's name for the same material as Ambroxan?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    EDIT: I have realized that the "Ambroxan" I have, while sold as such by the retailer (a good company) and to them by the distributor (not so much), is extremely unlikely to be genuine, but rather some cheap generic ambroxide. I bought it quite some time ago before learning about that distributor's practices. So my comparison with my material, which I mistakenly call "Ambroxan" below, with the premium (-)-ambroxide brand Ambrofix is invalid. Take them as comparison between cheap generic and premium product. In contrast, the quoted material by Chris Bartlett is indeed comparing genuine Ambroxan and Ambrofix.

    Many times where materials are not completely pure or are a mix of isomers, they perform differently, maybe subtly so and sometimes moreso, despite having the same molecule as the claimed ingredient.

    Quoting Chris Bartlett's test:

    ..here's how Ambrofix fared against Ambroxan:

    As solids, the Ambrofix has a stronger smell though the two are very similar.

    On dilution, sniffing the bottle shows no noticeable difference (again they are both 10% solutions).

    On a strip, immediately after dipping there is still no real difference. Within 2 minutes though I can detect a distinctly stronger, more diffusive effect from the Ambrofix. 30 minutes later the difference is more marked, with the Ambrofix showing a slightly stronger smell, with a distinctly fresh, almost ozonic quality that is less apparent in the Ambroxan. Both smell very clean and with little of the cedarwood effect I got from the Ambrox DL in the earlier test. The differences are still very subtle - I'm not sure, if you gave me an unlabelled strip with one of them on it and asked me which, whether I'd be able to tell you.

    After 2 hours both materials are strongly detectable on the strip, both fresh, clean and very pleasant with little to choose between them.

    12 hours after dipping and both smell identical - try as I might I can detect no difference - both still have an almost identical odour intensity as they had yesterday too.

    Now at 24 hours I can detect slight differences again: the Ambrofix has a slightly fresher scent and the Ambroxan is perhaps a fraction stronger now. I emphasise though that these are tiny differences.

    Final update: after a week, the two are still just as strong on the smelling strips as they were the day after they were dipped and I'm unable to detect any significant difference between them.

    Overal this was a surprising result: I expected these two materials to be exactly the same as each-other and the fact that they are not rather invalidates the price comparison with which I finished my earlier post.
    Personally I thought there was more difference than this however I don't have good basis to say. I have worked a lot with Ambroxan but received Ambrofix only recently and can say only that my impression of the Ambrofix as the solid did not strike me as being the same as Ambroxan. I thought it was interestingly different and have been looking forward to exploring that. But there indeed should be real head-to-head comparison to be able to give any advice on it.

    Very interesting that Chris said they showed differences as solids but not as diluted liquids and only subtle differences on strips. I have smelled Ambrofix only as undiluted solid.

    Chyprefresh did say "or;" it was I that said "and."

    If wanting to limit the shopping list then I would drop one of Ambroxan and Ambrofix rather than have both. Those two are certainly much closer to each other than Cetalox and Ambrinol are to each other (scarcely at all if any) or to either of them.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 10th April 2020 at 01:48 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    On ambergris accord:

    I just received Ambergris Tincture 10%- New Zealand Silver White Gold from PSH and am frankly stunned. The price is, admittedly, rather extreme. If making one ounce of perfume, at the dose I'd prefer to use it would take 6 grams of the tincture. Five grams is $69. (I bought one gram for $14.)

    I would definitely recommend getting the one gram amount.

    The only ambergris-type mixture I would highly recommend (that doesn't mean there aren't other good ones) is Fixateur 505e. However it does not smell like this ambergris. Extremely beneficial to many formulas though.

    I'd definitely suggest getting all the materials chyprefresh recommended, if you do not have them already which you may, and playing with combinations to see what you like. (The indole may be useful only for darker ambergris types as a guess.)
    How strong is the 2% tincture? Say if I had it in a base would it be noticeable, just this sounds like a low percent tincture?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    It smells reasonably strong straight from the sample tube and it's reasonably strong compared to the higher end of medium odor strength materials diluted to 3 percent (EDIT: Or fairly midrange medium odor strength at 10% which would be the correct comparison.) It is weak compared to undiluted medium odor strength materials. As mentioned, I would use a LOT if using in a final formulation. Not such a lot of the actual aromamaterial within it, but because of the dilution, a lot.

    I understand that going back a really long time, it was an ordinary practice for high end formulas to have amount of 3% ambergris tincture equal to about 70% the weight of the concentrate, added as part of the dilution process. They diluted both with ambergris tincture and with alcohol. I learned this from Luigi, who used to post here. Other than that I have no information on it but have long wanted to try..

    Obviously, it would have to be a very special and non_commercial formula for me to do that.

    EDIT -- I had done calculations and writing as if the material were 3% but it is in fact 10%. I was figuring on the more common lower value rather than the actual for this specific material. So I have divided the amount I originally said by 3.3. Not as horrible a cost then but still high.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Iíll tell you right away, Iím not so long ago in perfumery and Iím a beginner. Somewhere half a year ago, I did a sea chord, But I got So warm, sandy-beach, Sunny, And I think this is in the direction that you want .
    Key Ingredients
    Iso e super
    Kephalis
    Galaxolide
    Calone
    * Below is no longer on base notes
    Lilial
    Muguet accord
    Bergamot (I donít know where, the exact supplier, But there was a lot of Methyl Anthranilate in it, the smell was normal, but I stopped working with it
    Muscat Grape accord
    Tarragon
    Citral
    Aquamate
    If you try, Try carefully with kephalis, I had it in the region of 20%, I used somewhere for 2 ml of concentrate in the region of 4 drops. Now I work with 1%, Perhaps the next percentage will be in the region of 8%.
    If anything let me know how you are doing))

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Bill Roberts , I received the same ambergris, and found it marvelous! I previously bought some 3% from Canada and it was lackluster. I didn’t think ambergris had to be of high amounts in formulas. Why would one dilute it to 3% if a good bit was needed? Idk if I could ever put much into a formula, I love the effect alone and I feel like it is precious and rare. I do have a few other materials in small quantities that as expensive, but the only one that I feel is as rare is agar wood, which I prize equally. So I ask out of curiosity, because I won’t be using much of it anywhere, lol

  12. #12

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    If you're creating a generic dry wood base, I would not waste the money on sandalwood EO.
    Maybe use a tiny bit of Firsantol, which is the synth sandalwood AC that has a dry wood effect. (You might also experiment with Prismantol here if you're okay with an additional camphorous ginger-cardamom nuance)

    I very much agree with Cedramber and Trimofix.

    Other than that, I don't have much to contribute here.


    Have you smelled Timberol? I can't believe no one has suggested it yet.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by parker25mv View Post
    If you're creating a generic dry wood base, I would not waste the money on sandalwood EO.
    Maybe use a tiny bit of Firsantol, which is the synth sandalwood AC that has a dry wood effect. (You might also experiment with Prismantol here if you're okay with an additional camphorous ginger-cardamom nuance)

    I very much agree with Cedramber and Trimofix.

    Other than that, I don't have much to contribute here.


    Have you smelled Timberol? I can't believe no one has suggested it yet.
    I’ll have a look at timberol thanks!

    @ Bill, so the 2% tincture I’d need a lot of it to get the scent? As I’m new I’m just trying to gather as much information before I start adding it to a mix. Obviously it’s personal taste but I don’t want to waste money on it by either not having enough of it or adding too much in and taking over.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    That is a great question, Yamboa, but I am in a poor position to answer it as I have gotten ambergris tincture only now and so don't have the working experience with it.

    The amount that I was saying I wanted to use is quite a stronger amount than needed to have an exalting effect. Where I got the concept of so much was:

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    when ambergris tincture was commonly used [years ago], the rule of thumb was 73.5 percent of ambergris tincture
    of the fragrance concentration, so if one would have made a 20% EDP, then for every 20 grams of fragrance base, 14.7 grams of ambergris tincture was used, 11 grams of tincture if 15 grams of base was used.... etc..etc...
    and the amount of ambergris tincture used was subtracted from the alcohol that would have been used in the final product.

    so a production formula for 1 kilo of a 15% product would be:
    150 grams of compound
    110 grams of ambergris tincture
    740 grams of aqueous ethanol.

    1000 grams total
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Indeed so says the NIIR book.

    Seems an astonishing amount to have ever been commonly used commercially.
    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    indeed, Bill,
    but then in the 1000 gram example, only 3 grams of ambergris is used...
    that would be would be 75.00 of ambergris at todays retail price, or 36.00 of ambergris wholesale.
    so 7.50 per 100ml bottle.

    In one sense while this is an enormous amount of tincture, as Luigi showed the actual amount of ambergris itself works out to only 3 grams out of 153 grams total aromamaterials for this 15.3% concentration product, which is just a touch under 20 parts per thousand. NOT a lot.

    And I love to use Fixateur 505e at 25 ppt, which is mostly ambergris materials but as mentioned does not smell like the tincture.

    So I have long thought the amount is plausible and have wanted to do it but did not have the ambergris nor a particular fragrance concept in mind that could particularly benefit and could merit the cost. I do now though, so am looking forward to it.

    For sure a 2% tincture would not allow using only say 1% of formula and hope to get much out of that. But as for example Fixateur 505e can be used at only 5 ppt and still give very good exalting effect, I would suppose ambergris tincture could be used at say 1/5th the above level and still do considerable good. That is just a thought though rather than demonstrated by experience.

    Running with it just as a thought, to have 5 ppt of ambergris itself when using a 2% tincture, the tincture would need to make up 250 parts per thousand, which is, well, a lot.

    If wanting to be serious about using ambergris and not going crazy on cost, it seems one ought to make the tinctures oneself. The markups between tinctured product and ambergris itself are very high, though understandably so for small scale production.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 9th April 2020 at 03:53 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    With regard to a quote above where I referred to "the NIIR book," I believe at the time the book in question had been discussed on the forum so people knew what I meant, but on seeing that now I couldn't remember what book it was.

    Doing some searching, I expect it was this: https://books.google.com/books/about...d=6zBQYlvrV6cC though it possibly could be https://www.niir.org/books/book/perf...0,a/index.html .

    Searching the ebook of the first link, one can indeed find some truly generous uses of ambergris in various formulas: https://books.google.com/books?id=I1...ergris&f=false though with just a quick look I didn't see specifically the particular numbers being discussed. But generally, yes, lots of ambergris in some old formulas, and now having the particular tincture mentioned above, I can definitely see why.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 9th April 2020 at 03:48 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    I realized something last night and am somewhat annoyed with myself for it:

    Though all the time I "pray we won't be fooled again" or at least that I won't, I let myself be fooled on this one and didn't realize it till now.

    I almost certainly don't have Ambroxan. Therefore my comparison between Ambroxan and Ambrofix is invalid.

    The reason for this is I have learned that Perfumer's Apprentice sources their "Ambroxan" from JD Walsh. Now I've known for some years now that JD Walsh is in the practice of buying generic substitutes, probably the cheapest available, and putting premium brand names on them as if they were sourced from the companies making those brands, but not so. They won't put their actual source on the documentation. This method of doing business is just how they roll. So if you're not in the know about this and buy for example "Exaltolide" sourced from JD Walsh, you won't be getting Exaltolide -- a Firmenich product -- but something cheaper, probably the cheapest pentadecanolide they could get their hands on which wouldn't sell for the same money if they admitted their source, and it won't work the same.

    And they don't have organoleptic QC that's worth a flip, if they have any at all.

    Getting JD Walsh-sourced products, except in cases where there are no cheaper substitute manufacturers, is like going to the ghetto store to buy your high end perfume. It's going to be manufactured by someone different than you'd want and should expect from the name. Or if it's inherently a generic, you won't be getting top quality. Oh, you wanted cinnamic alcohol? Too bad you can smell nothing but cinnamic aldehyde impurity. Well what do you want, it was cheap and technically is mostly cinnamic alcohol. (Another true example of their offerings.)

    The "Ambroxan" I have, I bought before learning this.

    So almost certainly I don't have Ambroxan, but rather probably whatever the cheapest ambroxide was at the time.

    And so, no wonder it smells different than premium products such as genuine Ambrofix and Ambrox Super.

    So, please ignore everything I've said about Ambroxan....

  17. #17
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    So is everything thing at Perfumers apprentice from JD Walsh? Or just the ambroxan?
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Not everything by any means. Many times PA does list their source and it is Givaudan, Firmenich, IFF, etc.

    It's always or at least generally possible to tell from the SDS what the manufacturer is or if not that, the distributor.

    My meaning is not that everything from JD Walsh is bad. But that if it has a brand name, absolutely don't count on it actually being the brand name that they say. I do have good products that the retailer sourced from them as well as the disappointments or even ripoffs.

    Unfortunately, there may be more materials in my possession that aren't what I think they are, for the same reason. But at the moment I don't know what to suspect.

    Buying material sourced from them is like being a supermarket manager and wanting to get Tide from a distributor, but picking a distributor that's in the practice of buying cheap detergents and putting Tide labels on them and giving you documentation saying "Tide." Not kosher.

    Ambroxan isn't a particularly egregious example because unlike say Exaltolide and Hedione, Firmenich products for which no other manufacturer appropriates the names so far as I know, Kao seems not to have protected their trademark and according to TGSC the name is currently applied to their products by Associate Allied Chemicals, Aurochemicals, M&U International, Prodasynth (which claims merely to be 90%+), and Sunaux International. (None of them exactly industry leaders.)

    The big houses sell branded products of their own name rather than appropriating a name someone else gave a reputation to.

    So, if JDW is getting their material from a manufacturer themselves calling their product "Ambroxan" rather than ambroxide, I can't blame them too much on that, but they also do it on products where they themselves are slapping the name on,

    The point I wanted to convey is that when the retailer does not tell you the manufacturer, and when you check the documentation and all you can find is John D Walsh, then there's no telling where it came from, unless there is only one manufacturer of the product so no possibility of substitution.

    Creating Perfume sells the Kao Ambroxan, which is what Chris Bartlett was talking about and which I ignorantly I had, not knowing at the time this brand-name-appropriating trick.

    Perfumer Supply House says their material comes from multiple suppliers but it is all 99%+.

    I know that both of them watch out like hawks on this issue, from conversation with both Christine and Susan on this.

    What I have decided for myself is I tread with caution with regards to materials sourced from JDW but do not refuse to buy when there is no choice.

    By the way Perfumer's Apprentice has done a good job for at least the most part of no longer using wrong brand names supplied to them by JDW. As multiple small manufacturers are themselves using the Ambroxan name, they may not consider JDW to be misrepresenting on that one, and if so, fair enough.

    PA informed me some years back that they were planning to drop JDW for the above reason, but my guess is that that didn't prove feasible as sometimes that may be where to get a given thing in the US. I do feel they've made good honest effort to clear up the mis-branding mess. I don't blame PA at all and consider them a fine supplier.

    But personally I was confused and all this time was unaware that all I had was a mystery generic.

  19. #19
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    But JDW is a distributor. I went to their website and saw they distribute IFF and Firmenich products as well as others. What’s to stop Perfumers apprentice to ordering IFF/Firmenich items from JDW, ....and they are getting dupe knockoffs of cheap product that’s not actually an IFF/Firmenich?

    I guess what I’m trying to ask is....

    Is JDW company trying to sell aroma chemicals as “IFF” Branded, but are bottling in a some cheap low grade stuff in its place?
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  20. #20

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    Is JDW company trying to sell aroma chemicals as “IFF” Branded, but are bottling in a some cheap low grade stuff in its place?
    No.

    Perfumer's apprentice can't afford to order from large companies. Maybe for specific naturals, or materials which they can afford large quantities of. But for companies like IFF and Firmenich, a generic order may be a minimum of 250kg (especially for materials like Hedione, which is made by the ton) -- unless you have a special relationship with them, or the material is in short supply/expensive. IFF does not want to sell 2kg of karmawood to perfumer's apprentice. It isn't worth their time. They will sell 250 to JDW, who will sell 2 or 5 KG to PA, who will sell 25g to you.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    But JDW is a distributor. I went to their website and saw they distribute IFF and Firmenich products as well as others. What’s to stop Perfumers apprentice to ordering IFF/Firmenich items from JDW, ....and they are getting dupe knockoffs of cheap product that’s not actually an IFF/Firmenich?

    I guess what I’m trying to ask is....

    Is JDW company trying to sell aroma chemicals as “IFF” Branded, but are bottling in a some cheap low grade stuff in its place?
    While -- having learned the facts mentioned above and having had phone conversations with JDW about it -- I have no concern that JDW is, when specifying their supplier, duping retailers with false specific direct information on that. That would be another level entirely and I'd need evidence to be worried about it.

    One can make the argument, "Oh, people are more familiar with 'Hedione' than they are with 'dihydromethyljasmonate,' we're not trying to imply it's the Firmenich product, did we ever say it was? No we just wanted people to recognize the category of material" and it would be pretty hard, impossible I believe, to make a criminal case out of that. But as for saying specifically what you're selling was manufactured by Firmenich when in fact it's the cheapest Chinese stuff you could find, that would be another matter entirely. Lawsuit city at the minimum, prison time at the maximum.

    Personally though I can't prove it, I'm pretty sure Christine, Susan, or others would have caught them by now if they did such a thing, as another reason that I'm not worried about that. I know they are on the ball. I was favorably impressed with Travis at Perfumer's Apprentice as well in my one conversation with him and I have the impression he's on the ball as well but I do not know him as well as the first two. (Yes, Linda owns it but I have had no correspondence with her other than maybe billing years ago so cannot myself say.) I don't think they would be readily deceived for years in that way.

    As far as I go with it is, I don't assume a JDW product with a brand name but no manufacturer stated is in fact that brand name, nor do I assume necessarily high quality from generic materials, but also not necessarily inferior in any way. That's part of what free sample sizes are for.

  22. #22
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    https://perfumersupplyhouse.com/prod...oxan-crystals/

    Perfumersupplyhouse ambroxan crystals are also from JDW co.

    Where on Earth can you get decent ambroxan crystals from? Or will it always be only from JDW?
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  23. #23

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Christine says all the ambroxide products she sells are 99%+.

    That's beyond decent, I would expect it's top quality.

    If you like, Creating Perfume has the Kao product. Susan has free samples, as does Christine. It would be possible, if ordering other things, to get free samples of each.

    EDIT: Wrong, CP says Kao but there is no documentation provided supporting that, instead it says JDW. Perhaps JDW at one time said it was from Kao and it was but they do switch where they obtain their materials.

    As I brought up this whole hornet's nest, I'll write Susan and see what the deal is. When having so many items on offer, mistakes are always possible. E.g. she has a Liatrix listed as an absolute that according to the SDS is an "absolute substitute." But this is plainly seen at the top of the reviews so I expect that people do see this. I am confident it's just a mistake; if it were intentional then that review comment wouldn't survive, for example. FURTHER EDIT: Done.

    Also: The ideal would be 100% pure (-)-ambroxide. Ambrofix and Ambrox Super are both very very close to this. (The only case where the ideal is not 100% is where certain impurities may actually aid, which happens sometimes, but I don't think this is expected to be the case with this material.) So even if one cannot obtain genuine Ambroxan -- a Kao trademarked product -- on a retail basis, which I don't know, we absolutely can get "decent" material.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    https://perfumersupplyhouse.com/prod...oxan-crystals/

    Perfumersupplyhouse ambroxan crystals are also from JDW co.

    Where on Earth can you get decent ambroxan crystals from? Or will it always be only from JDW?
    Why on earth do you think they aren't decent amborxan crystals if they come from JDW? Ask them where they get their ambroxan from. I think they should tell you.

    Large companies like Firmenich don't make all of their materials, either. The generic ones they purchase from large, large chemical companies (like BASF, for example). SO even if you purchase something that came directly from Firmenich, depending on what it is, it may not have been them who produced it.

    Why does it matter? Who cares if your quality differed a bit form another? There is no best quality, of anything.
    Last edited by fragrantregard; 10th April 2020 at 07:54 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Names are trademarked, not copyrignted.

    Yes, Ambroxan is a trademarked name belonging to Kao, I would not have claimed it without checking, although I had long understood it to be the case: https://trademark.trademarkia.com/am...-78528957.html

    Not sure, as this one I didn't check, but it looked to me that the various smaller manufacturers I listed who use Kao's brand name on their product are all Chinese or Southeast Asian, who culturally have zero respect for other people's intellectual property rights and are always glad to ride someone else's coattails. I didn't see an American or European manufacturer doing it so far as I know, as these tend to honor IP rights.

    I do have to disagree that among available products there is no such thing as one that is the best quality. Sometimes there isn't, as more than one are all so good that you can't tell the difference between them. In other cases there is one that is clearly better than all others. And aside from concerns of best, it's also relevant whether there are inferior ones made, which often is the case.

    And then there's the question of "best for purpose." For example, I developed a formula for a commercial product that used a cyclopentadecanolide sold to me as "Exaltolide." By sheer dumb luck, fortunately I had to buy another smaller amount before making the production order at which time I discovered that the "Exaltolide" being sold at that later date did not perform as the material from the earlier date. Not at all. The difference was enough to greatly harm the fragrance, to take it from my being pretty satisfied with it to not satisfied at all.

    A lot of running around like a chicken with its head cut off to deal with that problem, all caused by deceptive misbranding and the fact that important differences do often exist according to manufacturer.

    Was the newer cyclopentadecanolide, misbranded as Exaltolide, actually a bad product? Not at all. It proved on research to be Macrolide Supra, a fine product and maybe for some other applications more suited than Exaltolide, but not for my application. As an example of where maybe neither is "best" period, but for a given purpose one can be the best that's available while the other is not only not the best but not even suitable.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Names are trademarked, not copyrignted.

    Yes, Ambroxan is a trademarked name belonging to Kao, I would not have claimed it without checking: https://trademark.trademarkia.com/am...-78528957.html
    Good catch I will edit my post on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I do have to disagree that among available products there is no such thing as one that is the best quality. Sometimes there isn't, as more than one are all so good that you can't tell the difference between them. In other cases there is one that is clearly better than all others. And aside from concerns of best, it's also relevant whether there are inferior ones made, which often is the case.
    To make a statement like this you need to qualify it. What do you mean clearly better? Assuring consistency is an issue, as your other story points out. But that is difficult with or without quality materials. If you switch from using Lemon to Orange in a cologne, it may still be a perfectly good fragrance, but it will smell entirely different. If you want to maintain consistency from batch to batch, it is important to have the same materials.

    Another question worth considering is: does it make a difference in the final formulation? Even if you can tell the difference side by side, if it doesn't make a difference in the final product (which requires triangular testing on many subjects), it doesn't matter anyways.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Well, for example, if I buy a cinnamic alcohol product, I want it to have properties such as these:

    Symrise says theirs is "sweet, balsamic, floral tending towards hyacinth." Moellhausen says theirs is "balsamic, sweet, aromatic, floreal, cinnamomum."

    I don't remember what my good source of cinnamic alcohol is, but it is like the above.

    Or, to get words out of the equation, to smell indistinguishable or not importantly distinguishable from material that is virtually 100% cinnamic alcohol.

    In contrast, an example BAD cinnamic alcohol I purchased, clearly from a company that did no decent organoleptic QC smelled overwhelmingly predominantly of cinnamic aldehyde, differing mainly by dilution. If cinnamic aldehyde was what I wanted, it's what I would have bought.

    Bedoukian, btw, pointed out in his book that inferior quality cinnamic alcohol typically is like this, for the reason of containing cinnamic aldhehyde. That was what caused me to go and buy cinnamic alcohol again from a different and better source. Otherwise, I'd never even have known what cinnamic alcohol smells like.

    For practical purposes I think it fair to say each of a group of essentially cinnamic-aldehyde-free cinnamic alcohols that are near 100% cinnamic alcohol, with other impurities contributing only imperceptible to smell, is "better" than one which is contaminated with cinnamic aldehyde, a high odor strength material while cinnamic alcohol is medium odor strength material.

    There are many examples. Very many materials I have purchased from differing supplies have been where for any purposes i have for them, one works better than the other.

    If not I'd always buy the cheapest and be done with it.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Well, for example, if I buy a cinnamic alcohol product, I want it to have these properties:

    sweet balsamic hyacinth spicy green powdery cinnamyl

    Symrise says theirs is "sweet, balsamic, floral tending towards hyacinth." Moellhausen says theirs is "balsamic, sweet, aromatic, floreal, cinnamomum."

    I don't remember what my good source of cinnamic alcohol is, but it is like the above.

    In contrast, an example BAD cinnamic alcohol I purchased smelled exactly and I mean exactly like cinnamic aldehyde, merely diluted.

    For practical purposes I think it fair to say each of a group of essentially cinnamic-aldehyde-free cinnamic alcohols that are near 100% cinnamic alcohol, with other impurities contributing only imperceptible to smell, is "better" than one which is contaminated with cinnamic aldehyde, a high odor strength material while cinnamic alcohol is medium odor strength material.

    There are many examples. Very many materials I have purchased from differing supplies have been where for any purposes i have for them, one works better than the other.

    If not I'd always buy the cheapest and be done with it.
    I simply have not had the same bad experience you have. Almost all synthetics I have purchased as a DIY person have been of decent quality, save from one overseas manufacturer. And even after I complained to them, they fixed the problem.

    What I object to more as a DIY person is being robbed with extremely inflated prices. But I have not had quality issues, as I say. Perhaps I would be weary if I had.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    My percentage rate of problems (that I know of) is low, but out of many hundreds of items but probably under 1000 (I don't keep count nor have a spreadsheet or anything) even a quite low percentage can yield examples, some of which will be important to the individual. Of course I am not implying that your number of items is less, I have no idea. If let's say similar, then another factor is that when a probability rate is such that in one case it's say 3 out of 1000 or other number, then in another case none of those will happen to turn up, while another person will be hit with 5 or 6 or even more.

    Still further is the question of unidentified problems. I know for myself, there's really no way I can know that I may not have some "lemons" among materials I've purchased or gotten free samples of, because I have only one example of them and I mistakenly think that that's how the material is.

    The worst of course is when paying a high price and getting utter crap, which to me has only happened with a natural (an alleged Mysore Sandalwood from PA, supplied by FP Aromatics. Paid a lot, but if I'd gotten to smell it first, I wouldn't have paid a dime, except maybe to have it hauled away.)

  30. #30

    Default Re: Creating a dry wood base

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    My percentage rate of problems (that I know of) is low, but out of many hundreds of items but probably under 1000 (I don't keep count nor have a spreadsheet or anything) even a quite low percentage can yield examples, some of which will be important to the individual. Of course I am not implying that your number of items is less, I have no idea. If let's say similar, then another factor is that when a probability rate is such that in one case it's say 3 out of 1000 or other number, then in another case none of those will happen to turn up, while another person will be hit with 5 or 6 or even more.

    Still further is the question of unidentified problems. I know for myself, there's really no way I can know that I may not have some "lemons" among materials I've purchased or gotten free samples of, because I have only one example of them and I mistakenly think that that's how the material is.

    The worst of course is when paying a high price and getting utter crap, which to me has only happened with a natural (an alleged Mysore Sandalwood from PA. Paid a lot, but if I'd gotten to smell it first, I wouldn't have paid a dime, except maybe to have it hauled away.)
    In any event, the PA Amborxan -- wherever it comes from -- is a fine product. And if it is from JDW, who cares. It smells just fine.

    Natruals, as you mention, are an entirely different issue. And even very large, well known suppliers have been caught cheating in the past. That is a different ball game.




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