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  1. #1
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I remember seeing a chart that posted out on a x/y axis of all these different musks odor profiles (like 7 or 8 of them) ranging from sweet, to animatic, to powdery, to clean, etc

    Iím scrolling through basenotes trying to find it again, but canít seem to. Does anyone recall this axis plot chart that plots out all these different musk characteristic in a graph?

    Itís NOT the same chart as below, ...but itís more of a axis plot style chart.

    A04B8844-528B-4635-A6A2-56D94234F97C.jpg
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Could this be the one you're looking for? From Jean Claude Ellena's book.

    IMG_7297.jpg

  3. #3
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Super close Sam, but that’s not it. I don’t believe it’s from a book and it was a designed graphic image that someone made up. But very close indeed.

    I think I recall a basenotes forum member posting a pic of it within the past 3 months, and I’ve spent the last few days going through every post.....still searching for it, lol
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    It's not exactly what you asked for, but it may be helpful for you:
    https://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/up...ed-10-2016.pdf
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    To potentially save anyone else the ever so slight (these days) trouble:

    "Muscs Lessiviels" apparently means soapy musks, "Muscs Sirupeux" apparently means sweet musks, and "Muscs Poudres" apparently means powdery musks.

    Thank you for that picture, Sam!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Thank you for that picture, Sam!
    No problem!

    Thank you for your .pdf Paul, seems like a useful reference to have.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I know what axis chart you're talking about, and I could've sworn Paul posted it...

  8. #8
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    thats what i thought too.....but ive dug through all the posts for the past 3 months and cant find it....and im still searching for it as i type this! LOL
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Funny enough, I was looking for it the other day, too! haha

    I just saw the post less than a month ago, I'm sure of it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    This forum is so littered with repetitive crap that a proper search query is quite tricky: musk chart..

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    This forum is so littered with repetitive crap that a proper search query is quite tricky: musk chart..
    BRAVO!!!
    I couldn't find it on my computer
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  12. #12
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    OMG thank you so much! i can finally sleep at night! I'm posting it again in this thread in case i need to dig it up again

    Musk-comparison-chart.jpg
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    This forum is so littered with repetitive crap that a proper search query is quite tricky: musk chart..
    Nice find!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    It is peculiar though that the chart shows Galaxolide and musk ketone as being quite close to each other, with the differences apparently being only Galaxolide a touch less in the clean direction and with some added flowery!

    On Ellena's graphic, they are on different lobes quite far from each other rather than being immediate neighbors, Galaxolide on the soapy lobe and musk ketone on the powdery. I agree.

    Most strange that this chart shows no powderiness to musk ketone.

    Or Ambrettolide and musk ambrette which are right next together. I really don't think they are close enough to each other for one to be able to do anything like vaguely passably substitute for the other. And if two things cannot be used to similar effect, then how close are they really?

    I had never noticed musk ambrette to be metallic like Habanolide, either, let alone to equal extent but that could be individual perception.

    However as an example of confirmation bias -- suddenly its validity increases because it agrees with me, lol -- it's nice to see racemic muscone and L-muscone not being placed overly closely to each other. I have always experienced and expressed quite substantial difference, though no one has ever agreed when I posted that (nor disagreed.)

    But I cannot see muscenone as more "animalic" than L-muscone. Nor Ambrox as even being a musk, and it being near-zero on the animalic axis, albeit un-musk-like animalic, seems strange. Nor dihydroambrettolide and ambrettolide* being on near opposite sides of the chart: I find them similar.

    Well, such efforts -- reducing more dimensions to fewer, or not literally dimensional to dimensional -- can never be perfect, by their nature, but can sometimes be helpful.

    I tend to think that avoiding reducing to dimensions and allowing more words gives better result, as with Paul's page: http://pkperfumes.com/wp-content/upl...ed-10-2016.pdf

    All these peculiarities (at best) do have me seriously wondering where that came from and should we take it as being from professional perfumers, as with the Givaudan chart or Ellena's chart, or being fairly random. Of course, maybe it is I that has the weird sniffer

    * EDIT: I realized that while I was referring to natural ambrettolide, the chart may well be referring to the synthetic, a differing isomer which I have not smelled for many years, not since the very beginning of my perfuming and not for long then, due to not caring for it. If that's what's meant, I'm unequipped to say whether its positioning of synthetic ambrettolide so far from dihydroambrettolide is fitting or not.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 28th May 2020 at 02:30 AM.

  15. #15
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I find this image to be the most useful visual for musk comparisons.

    also to note:

    Who originally created this image? And who has enough musks in their arsenal to complete this graph? I'm seeing its missing like 8-10 other Musks that are available on market today. If someone has this info, they can PM me a hand drawn chart....and ill create a new/updated version of this in photoshop.
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I don't remember where or who this originated, sorry.
    But it certainly is older.

    I'm not sure that my document is complete for all musks available, but it is more complete than this one chart.
    But you could readily compare the chart with my doc to find a lot of missing musks.

    there might be a couple of musks on my doc that I don't have in the lab, but I don't think I have the time to make a new chart and place them all out... I'm trying to juggle five new clients presently...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  17. #17
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    So redoing this chart (work in progress)

    - Making room for more musks: creating smaller bubbles for more room
    - Adjusting colors and fonts
    - added a ledger for the color GREY

    Now we just need to add in the following missing musks and figure out where they belong on the chart and color:
    *this is where ill need everyone help, i dont have access or smelled these missing musks. If you know where it should belong on this chart, post a reply saying "XXX musk should be to the right of XXmusk, but slightly higher upward/dowward", etc

    ANIMALID
    AURELIONE
    CELESTOLIDE
    CIVETTEONE
    EDENOLIDE
    ETHYLENE BRASSYLATE
    EXALTOLIDE TOTAL
    GLOBANONE
    GLOBACENIDE
    HELVETOLIDE
    MUSK R1
    PENTALIDE
    ROMANDOLIDE
    SILVANONE
    SCENTOLIDE

    Musk-comparison-chart_v2.jpg
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Well, just in general for all kinds of things, when considering building on something incomplete, it's worth taking the time to figure out whether the foundation is good or not. If not, then maybe building on it will not be productive.

    We don't know where this came from. So there is no reason to think we should accept the system "on authority." If we were doing that, then for example Ellena's system or the Givaudan system would take precedence.

    So it has to be evaluated on itself.

    Aside from the specific things noted above, this system when analyzed fundamentally does this:

    1) Assumes that having a "clean" perception and "animal" perception are antagonistic: one cannot exist without the other, and musks are on an axis going from one to other.

    But is this true?

    If so, then Givaudan is wrong about Velvione, as they say it is clean AND animalic.

    How about musk ketone? The chart says clean, so it can't be animalic? Really?

    I expect there are more examples.

    So this foundational aspect of this chart is I think fundamentally wrong.

    2) The chart also assumes that powdery and metallic are fundamentally antagonistic. Now I know of no evidence that for some reason if whatever odorant receptors give metallic perception are activated then that shuts off powdery perception, or vice-versa. So is this foundatinal assumption true, or false as well? Should we really assume, as we will if we build on this chart, that something can't have both some powderiness and some metallicness?

    How about Musk T? The chart puts it in the "metallic" direction on this (hypothesized) axis. Does no one perceive it as powdery?

    Actually powdery is the first descriptor on TGSC.

    I think we need strong skepticism, at the very least, on this basis of the chart as well.

    3) It then adds only four additional possible qualities: flowery, fruity, woody, and "amber-sweet" (assumes that sweetness perception goes along with being perceived as amber, an assumption I also think incorrect.) At least these, the system allows combinations rather than demanding metallic OR powdery, clean OR animalic.

    Getting back to "clean," that's awfully vague in any case. All kinds of things get the clean label, and it has more to do (IMO) with environmental experience rather than any actual note or olfactory receptor. "Soapy" is far more precise, and, can anything have both soapy and animalic qualities? Of course. They should not be along an axis.

    What about depth, richness, diffusive, smooth, exalting, soft, fine, top note, rich, delicate, warm, powerful, Tonkin, creamy, velvety, apple, red fruit, spicy, earthy, bright, nitromusk, starched-shirt, dry, and herbal?

    I understand the appeal of the chart -- it looks great and looks like it should be useful -- but I fear it is built on a downright false foundation and even with only the musks it already has, it is riddled with dubious and misleading entries, were one to make decisions from it.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I'm really curious about appleide, would love to smell it.

  20. #20
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Fair enough Bill, i understand all aspects of your post and can agree. Im open to any suggestions you have for improvement on a visual chart in a X/Y axis style for all users to visually see musks mapped out so they can easily identify differences between each other.

    --if you feel the X/Y grid of 'Clean --> Animal' and 'Metallic ---> Powdery' are not ideal, would you have some other descriptives that would be more useful that share commonality with all musks?
    --should we revisit the ledger of "tonal aspects" (flowery, fruity, etc) in the bottom right and broaden it out more?

    Im open to all and any suggestions. I just really like this concept of a visual mapping and find it super useful. But if its not accurate and too open to interpretation, maybe i should scrap this whole thing together
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    Fair enough Bill, i understand all aspects of your post and can agree. Im open to any suggestions you have for improvement on a visual chart in a X/Y axis style for all users to visually see musks mapped out so they can easily identify differences between each other.

    --if you feel the X/Y grid of 'Clean --> Animal' and 'Metallic ---> Powdery' are not ideal, would you have some other descriptives that would be more useful that share commonality with all musks?
    --should we revisit the ledger of "tonal aspects" (flowery, fruity, etc) in the bottom right and broaden it out more?

    Im open to all and any suggestions. I just really like this concept of a visual mapping and find it super useful. But if its not accurate and too open to interpretation, maybe i should scrap this whole thing together
    I find it helpful, but then again Im a novice. especially when it comes to musks.

    I have a heck of a time using them effectively

  22. #22

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Well my real suggestion is that what you figure yourself is probably going to be the most productive for you and likely helpful for everyone should you post it, so I'm reluctant to suggest, but my thought on it is:

    The page Paul posted, which is a compilation of other sources or a reprint of a single work and isn't his personal analysis of each, is a pretty good start. TGSC also has not just the leading entry or entries, but also some of the manufacturers listed give their own notes. Compiling multiple sources into one document would add to knowledge and I think would be very useful for everyone. Freedom to use words and phrases of one's choice allows much better description than a chart can.

    Your point of similar vs different seems a great one, particularly with respect to "Should I buy this or do I have something really similar already?" and I suppose a table could be generated with each musk having both a row and a column, so for any item one could read how similar people considered it to another.

    Example such chart, but with just yes/no instead of 0-10 ratings:



    (Btw, one needs to enter for only half the cells as that one does, a line could be drawn down the top left - bottom right diagonal and everything on the right/above that line is just a mirror of what's on the other side. So not as daunting to fill out as it looks.)

    That said, still I'm skeptical of that because for example I'd have to admit that Exaltolide and Exaltolide Total, recently mentioned and a great example, I'd give an 8 or 9 for similarity but that would not mean that for a given formula one might not be the golden ticket while the other just would not do!

    That specific case has happened to me.

    Especially given that Perfumer Supply House and CP are both just absolutely wonderful at free samples, it seems the best strategy is more like Pokemon: "Gotta collect them all!"

  23. #23

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    For visual mapping, I think the concept of making an axis do two things -- you're either on the metallic side or the powdery side, for example -- has got to be avoided. They should run in just one direction, from having nothing at all in that quality, or being full-on in that quality.

    Perhaps for any chart, not intended to be a be-all end-all but just helpful in certain ways, I'd say pick 3 or 2 qualities, making the 3 or 2 axes decision based on skill in making 3D charts or not.

    They could be whatever you wanted. Any 3 qualities.

    Then as the above chart did, a color coding could be used which could indicate possession of how much of some other qualities of your choice.

    Or not, on that one. For example if you could do 3D graphs each chart would be showing how much of each of 3 qualities each musk had, and you could have 3 such charts and thus take care of 9 qualities, which would be pretty darn good!

  24. #24

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamE View Post
    I find it helpful, but then again Im a novice. especially when it comes to musks.

    I have a heck of a time using them effectively
    in fact, Id like to see similar charts for all the notes and elements

  25. #25

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    I asked my wife who is a data engineer at a large multinational company how she would deal with this for example. She said exactly that she'd do a chart like Bill's but that numbers would be important so that you could express that something had 9 metallic, 3 powder, and 3 soap etc. Because otherwise you could have 2 musks with the same dots and they would look the same but would be quite different. If we mocked up the graph in Google sheets quick and dirty, you can even color code the lines and the musk's with primary quality so that gives the visual side.

  26. #26
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    What about something like this?

    Where its formatted to auto-color code based on the number assigned to it (1-10). The darker the green, the more aspect it has in it.

    *The entered values are a dummy placeholder, not accurate example of its true nature/data

    screenshot123.jpg
    ...bathing in perfumes...

  27. #27

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Yea that seems pretty neat. I think you could look at it and tell. My only other idea is I wonder if 1-10 is really necessary. 1-4 might give cleaner information

  28. #28

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bkkorn View Post
    ... a dummy placeholder
    I always get skeered when overhearing an employer saying this about me!

  29. #29

    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    Also, important if multiple people are contributing to be clear on what the top end number means (it's obvious what zero means.)

    For example, Zenolide has I think the strongest red fruit of any musk, so for that reason does it get a 10 for red fruit?

    Or since that effect is pretty soft and weak should it get say a 3? (While other musks get even less or most commonly zero.)

    As yet another possibility, should its red fruit score, as well as all others, come from divvying up all the qualities such that the total is always 10?

    Any of these would work, but what wouldn't work well is for different people to be contributing based on different ideas of how the scales run.

  30. #30
    Super Member Bkkorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Musk characteristics chart, plot axis

    All very good points on how the scoring should be attributed. We need to think of this in a manor that not only decribes the scent, but can easily cross reference other musks in a side by side comparison and still hold accurate.

    If we stick with 1-10, i think it should be based on the scent of the musk by itself in relationship to the other available aspects. So right now, we have 9 available aspects:

    Powdery
    Animalic
    Fruity
    Woody
    Sensual
    Spicy
    Sweet
    Ambery
    Clean

    The musk would then be evaluated and numbers assigned based on the dominant aspect, in descending order maybe? And if a certain aspect has absolutely no traces of it within the musk, we just claim it as 0 zero. Thats one way to look at it.

    So for example on Applelide: We determine whats the most dominating aspect, and rank them in descending order thereafter. So maybe something like:

    Powdery
    Sensual
    Clean
    Sweet
    Fruity
    Woody
    Animalic
    Ambery
    Spicy

    So this would get a score of something like:

    Powdery 9
    Sensual 8
    Clean 7
    Sweet 6
    Fruity 5
    Woody 4
    Animalic 3
    Ambery 2
    Spicy 1

    Not sure really the best way to attribute this stuff......
    ...bathing in perfumes...




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