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  1. #31
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by freewheelingvagabond View Post
    CREED
    Creed got sold.
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  2. #32

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Get the new edition of Turin/Sanchez, the intro gives a very accurate account of the state of the perfume business/market. Executive summary: The Designer market is creatively dead, niche (Lutens, Xerjoff, Creed, Roja et al) has pretty much become a complete scam, small artisan operations are doing all the interesting work. And there's many of them featured in the guide.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G View Post
    I've recently come back to the fragrance game after about 6 or so years. Suprised at a couple of changes that have taken place and would welcome your comments:

    1. Everything seems to have been reformulated and is now different and/ or weaker. Recently bought GIT decants from two different, but wholly trustworthy, guys and the stuff smells like a memory of the original stuff. Lucky to still have about 30ml of my 2011 batch but devastated that it looks like this will never be available again. Same applies to my Chergui, LIDGE (yeah I know it's discontinued), Reflection, etc. Has IFRA completely destroyed most older fragrances? Does this also mean perfumers will struggle to create new fragrances that are unique and long lasting?

    2. Clones everywhere. Seems like every Youtuber I watch is suggesting buying these. I can't remember this being ubiquitous as it is now. Do the youtubers get incentivised by these companies or are they actually worthwhile? I've tried 3 from a UK company and wasn't overly impressed.

    3. Basenotes seems to appear quite low down in search results. I now have to add "basenotes" to my search to get results. Misremembering this or has there been a change? Fragrantica always appears higher.

    4. Finally I'm really glad to see some of the most knowledgable reviewers and commentators still here providing invaluable advice and guidance. As someone who is still learning so much I'd like to thank you guys for spending the time educating the rest of us. I'm sure a lot of the other guys on here feel the same.
    Astute observations.
    “If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.”
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  4. #34
    Dependent slpfrsly's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWineMemories View Post
    If everything is being reformulated to be weaker, then that means the market wants weaker scents.
    Interesting. I'd say yes and no - clearly, no, on the basis of communities like this. But we're only a tiny part of the market - that said, we'll be disproportionately listened to, hence the other point made re: the rise of clones. Clones are only successful because people are suddenly aware of 'more' than they were before, want to try these expensive/unattainable fragrances, but have no real means of doing so. Thus, clones.

    However, I'd be hesitant to say the tail (market) is wagging the dog (perfumers/brands) here: reformulations are clearly something not every house wants to deal with and that's why mixed results are stemming from new laws/regulations.

    Even so I'd still kind of agree with you. In masculine perfumery in particular - even allowing for the relative loudness of Sauvage, the most popular scent atm - the age of men wanting to 'smell like fragrance' seems to have...gone? I think? Even the clubbing bombs of the present day aren't really that loud/masculine any more.

    Someone made a great point elsewhere about the 'ideology' behind the rebirth of the fougere - as almost performative masculinity, which I tend to agree with - but I genuinely think, other than a few hardcore people online, trying to stake any sense of, well, masculine scent back in to the market is a fool's game. Not only have womens' tastes watered down masculine fragrance in to the dark blue trend on one hand, and gourmands on the other, but I get the feeling that a lot of women would rather most men simply didn't wear any fragrance. Therefore, if it's a choice between BO stank or the body scent equivalent of 5 o clock shadow or a fragrance, the option of a fragrance means weak, non descript, ambroxan-centric fragrances are the first (and in many cases only) port of call.

    Interesting point. I'm not sure to what extent I agree in all honesty.
    “If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.”
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  5. #35
    Super Member Mr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Get the new edition of Turin/Sanchez, the intro gives a very accurate account of the state of the perfume business/market. Executive summary: The Designer market is creatively dead, niche (Lutens, Xerjoff, Creed, Roja et al) has pretty much become a complete scam, small artisan operations are doing all the interesting work. And there's many of them featured in the guide.
    Thank you, I have just ordered it on Amazon. Look forward to read their comment on the state of play.

  6. #36
    Super Member Mr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funwithfrags View Post
    Hi - that's an interesting opener and some good thoughts there. Very brief responses:

    1. Time provides great perspective. I would try Rogue perfumery for a house whose entire purpose is to thumb its nose at IFRA.

    2. Personally I would avoid clones, as I would avoid most youtubers who talk about fragrance, many of whom I also suspect to be clones.

    3. Wouldn't know but I guess there's a reason.

    4. I also benefit from the same.

    Cheers.
    Thanks for the recommentation. Do you happen to know how to get samples for Rogue? Looked online but the US Etsy site doesn't post to the UK and the European distributor doesn't seem to have samples.

  7. #37
    Super Member Mr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trauerkraut View Post
    I meant the original one: 375x500.11570.jpg

  8. #38
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Well, I ordered samples in the UK at the back end of last year and that was fine. I believe there was a hiatus on overseas orders last time I looked but that might be due to the general unusual conditions in the world right now. I'd keep checking back, or just sent Manuel a message through Etsy to see what the situation is.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G View Post
    I meant the original one: 375x500.11570.jpg
    It's the same juice.

  10. #40

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    niche (Lutens, Xerjoff, Creed, Roja et al) has pretty much become a complete scam,.
    Would you mind giving a little more detail behind this? Or is it simply because of the high prices?

  11. #41
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr G View Post
    Thanks for the recommentation. Do you happen to know how to get samples for Rogue? Looked online but the US Etsy site doesn't post to the UK and the European distributor doesn't seem to have samples.
    Your best bet is - if not this website's selling page - then specific Facebook groups for perfume samples in the UK. I'm no longer in any but they have a high turnover, good spread of niche fragrances, and are everything is specifically sold not to make a profit, which is great. Very rare to find scammers.
    “If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.”
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  12. #42
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Get the new edition of Turin/Sanchez, the intro gives a very accurate account of the state of the perfume business/market. Executive summary: The Designer market is creatively dead, niche (Lutens, Xerjoff, Creed, Roja et al) has pretty much become a complete scam, small artisan operations are doing all the interesting work. And there's many of them featured in the guide.
    Hmm. I think it's difficult to make such sweeping generalisations. Ultimately, if it smells good to you and you are happy with the price, there is no "scam" going on. A lot of small artisans are churning out a lot of crap recently too.

  13. #43
    Super Member Mr G's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by saminlondon View Post
    It's the same juice.
    Really? Great! I had assumed a refomulation with the bottle change.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee View Post
    Would you mind giving a little more detail behind this? Or is it simply because of the high prices?
    I wouldn't call them scammers. I could list my house for $10,000,000, and take cash offers. An appraiser wouldn't call that fair market value, and might think it's so outrageous that it seems like a scam. I could see both sides, but I would take the money.

  15. #45

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by saminlondon View Post
    It's the same juice.
    I have the original and a decant from 2019 and I could tell the difference in a blind A/B test. I also preferred the original in the blind test. 90% similar though, so it's either a great reformulation or just a difference in the age of the juice.

  16. #46

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee View Post
    Would you mind giving a little more detail behind this? Or is it simply because of the high prices?
    If I may quote:
    "To counter the gray market, the big outfits decided to sell some perfumes only where the rich people are. Being good businesspeople, they bought out the small (niche, a.k.a. independent) firms that had survived and thrived for a decade or so, due to their combination of shtick, perfume quality, and management skills. That is why Lauder now owns Aveda, Le Labo, Frédéric Malle and others, respectively representing the hippie, edgy, and grand styles of perfumery. Those perfumes sell for roughly twice the price of mainstream brands, formula cost is a bit higher, and there’s no gray market and very little advertising cost because small brands work by word of mouth. In short, gravy. Many so-called independents are now created with what they call a successful “exit strategy” in mind, i.e. cashing in and selling out. Artistically, many niche fragrances out there simply follow a new style orthodoxy and, by now, are even more of a rip-off than the mainstream ones. Consider the fact that you can get the sublime Antaeus (Chanel) for $75 but need to shell out at least twice as much for any mediocre niche frag you’d care to name."

  17. #47

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by oudaddict View Post
    Hmm. I think it's difficult to make such sweeping generalisations. Ultimately, if it smells good to you and you are happy with the price, there is no "scam" going on. A lot of small artisans are churning out a lot of crap recently too.
    PT Barnum said that there's a sucker born every minute. He never said they weren't happy suckers.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    If I may quote:
    "To counter the gray market, the big outfits decided to sell some perfumes only where the rich people are. Being good businesspeople, they bought out the small (niche, a.k.a. independent) firms that had survived and thrived for a decade or so, due to their combination of shtick, perfume quality, and management skills. That is why Lauder now owns Aveda, Le Labo, Frédéric Malle and others, respectively representing the hippie, edgy, and grand styles of perfumery. Those perfumes sell for roughly twice the price of mainstream brands, formula cost is a bit higher, and there’s no gray market and very little advertising cost because small brands work by word of mouth. In short, gravy. Many so-called independents are now created with what they call a successful “exit strategy” in mind, i.e. cashing in and selling out. Artistically, many niche fragrances out there simply follow a new style orthodoxy and, by now, are even more of a rip-off than the mainstream ones. Consider the fact that you can get the sublime Antaeus (Chanel) for $75 but need to shell out at least twice as much for any mediocre niche frag you’d care to name."
    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    PT Barnum said that there's a sucker born every minute. He never said they weren't happy suckers.
    The whole min/max cost/profit and focus on biggest short-term windfall has infested all corners of the market in our current hellscape timeline, but this particular phenomenon with creatively AI-controlled designers, Veblen/status niche, and all the bad faith "independent perfume" that's really just another corporate arm is what some of us have dubbed "the race to the bottom". Both comical and depressing in equal measure.
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  19. #49

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funwithfrags View Post
    2. Personally I would avoid clones, as I would avoid most youtubers who talk about fragrance, many of whom I also suspect to be clones.

    Cheers.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nido View Post
    I have the original and a decant from 2019 and I could tell the difference in a blind A/B test. I also preferred the original in the blind test. 90% similar though, so it's either a great reformulation or just a difference in the age of the juice.
    I meant not discontinued rather than completely untinkered with. I wasn't aware of any major reformulation but I haven't smelt current for a couple of years; should probably try it again.

  21. #51

    Default Re: What's happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    If I may quote:
    "To counter the gray market, the big outfits decided to sell some perfumes only where the rich people are. Being good businesspeople, they bought out the small (niche, a.k.a. independent) firms that had survived and thrived for a decade or so, due to their combination of shtick, perfume quality, and management skills. That is why Lauder now owns Aveda, Le Labo, Frédéric Malle and others, respectively representing the hippie, edgy, and grand styles of perfumery. Those perfumes sell for roughly twice the price of mainstream brands, formula cost is a bit higher, and there’s no gray market and very little advertising cost because small brands work by word of mouth. In short, gravy. Many so-called independents are now created with what they call a successful “exit strategy” in mind, i.e. cashing in and selling out. Artistically, many niche fragrances out there simply follow a new style orthodoxy and, by now, are even more of a rip-off than the mainstream ones. Consider the fact that you can get the sublime Antaeus (Chanel) for $75 but need to shell out at least twice as much for any mediocre niche frag you’d care to name."
    OK so they didn't exactly say those brands are running a scam, they said they don't feel the prices they are asking justify the high price tags, which is a perfectly reasonable point of view. The same could be said for pretty much any luxury good once you get past a certain price point, the law of diminishing returns comes into play and of course a lot of what you're paying for is exclusivity (or at least the illusion of it). Some people value that highly and feel it's worth the cost. Others are free to call them idiots for doing so




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