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Thread: Fragrance oil

  1. #1

    Default Fragrance oil

    Hi Everyone,

    I've noticed people selling fragrance oils of inspired colognes/perfumes, just wondering how they are usually made / what do they usually contain?

    Kind Regards,
    Cody.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    These are very common, some company wants to make money by copying other people's creativity. They make an analysis, and make choices to copy the scents, usually as cheaply as possible. This leaves out the costlier materials, which are often the Basenotes, primarily, and also, of course, leaves out any captives which are unavailable for purchase.
    There won't be any naturals in the blend, due to their cost.
    This is why the fragrance oil copycat sellers like the Thieves at Dua, need to increase the percent of the concentrate in their products, because of a lack of longevity.

    Many sellers like Dua then try to make the scents last longer by adding other materials that they think will make them last longer. This is why Dua has felt icky sticky with too much DPG in the product, in Hope's of longevity. The products are in fact stronger than the scents they steal from, because of added scent materials to try to make up for their weakness and downfall.
    Last edited by pkiler; 3rd June 2020 at 06:24 AM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Oh right that makes sense! If i wanted to make my own impressions of other colognes how would i do that? (im a newbie haha)

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody1 View Post
    Oh right that makes sense! If i wanted to make my own impressions of other colognes how would i do that? (im a newbie haha)
    im not a newbie haha.
    Assistance for thieves is not provided.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    im not a newbie haha.
    Assistance for thieves is not provided.
    Paul said it best, but I'll add something else. If you're inspired by a fragrance and you're just wanting to completely copy it for the sake of building a brand like the one listed above, you won't find much assistance here, among actual perfumers.

    Lets be honest though, we've all been 'inspired' by a fragrance at one point or another, but that inspiration shouldn't drive you to try your best to completely copy the fragrance. To add more color/clarity to my comment, say you saw a really interesting painting and you really liked it. Your inspiration from that painting shouldn't make you want to go home and paint that same painting...you should go home and maybe use the same style of painting, or even some of the colors that you saw in it that you didn't realize would move you in such a way.

    Fragrance is no different. Those that make cheap copies and increase the concentration and add overdoses of cheap materials to compensate for the lack of high quality materials is theft, no different than any other industry.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Btw if it seems that there's inconsistency, because sometimes we do talk about how to achieve the effect of a given fragrances, it's because there are two quite different possible motivations:

    1) The person asking hopes to get the benefit of the original perfumer's work -- to be able to wear something that smells the same, or even to sell it -- without paying for it.

    2) The person is actively working in learning the art of perfumery, which involves experimentation and exercises, and attempting to work towards similar effect as a given perfume is for the purpose of learning.

    If someone has no experience in perfumery but thinks they will gain the skills from reading a few posts, that is unrealistic by far. Expect hundreds of hours of effort before getting past raw novice, and thousands for anything approaching what it takes to really make fully professional perfumes, if ever getting there. That is not to throw a cold towel on your interests, if they weren't simply to have the fragrance without paying, but to provide reality.

    Btw, if I took the costs of my materials vs the number of ounces of finished perfume I have made (not counting a couple of things used in commercial cosmetics) the cost would be many, many hundreds of dollars per ounce. The perfuming hobby is NOT a money saver compared to buying perfume.

  7. #7
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default How to begin as thief and become sincere master

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody1 View Post
    Oh right that makes sense! If i wanted to make my own impressions of other colognes how -
    Begin with undermining other perfumers' intentions, if you are serius about
    it. By doing gas chromatography & mass spectrometry analysis‎. This is kind of
    copying and you will see that the most sincere perfumers are doing the most
    GC/MS.

    When you steal only parts, it is called learning, when you get closer to the
    original, it is called stealing. There is always a knowledge transfer but no
    exact border between learning and stealing.

    In all arts you have to learn from other masters, there is no way around it. But
    perfumery is special about this point. When you do GC/MS it is a fact you must
    admit, that you do it against the delight of an other perfumer and his company.

    If somebody claims otherwise, ask: Was there ever a GC/MS analysis by third party
    without violating the intention of the original manufacturer and his perfumer?

    You see, there was never a great perfumer who would not have made
    another one sad & angry. The whole perfume industry is hiding and copying.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Btw, if I took the costs of my materials vs the number of ounces of finished perfume I have made (not counting a couple of things used in commercial cosmetics) the cost would be many, many hundreds of dollars per ounce. The perfuming hobby is NOT a money saver compared to buying perfume.
    Gosh this is SO true! I'm unsure if I could ever agree more with the statements quoted.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivor Joedy View Post
    Begin with undermining other perfumers' intentions, if you are serius about
    it. By doing gas chromatography & mass spectrometry analysis‎. This is kind of
    copying and you will see that the most sincere perfumers are doing the most
    GC/MS.

    ... You see, there was never a great perfumer who would not have made
    another one sad & angry. The whole perfume industry is hiding and copying.
    it is an interesting subject if finding thinking about how law and ethics can relate is personally interesting.

    If law gives no protection to intellectual property, as is pretty much the case in China for example when it comes to their generally feeling free to use any Western IP whatsosever without paying, just stealing left and right, it is a pretty bad situation. So let's call that one extreme of bad. Of course, direct commercial perfume ripoffs done by copying GC/MS is exactly in that category ethically.

    At the other end of the spectrum, but no society has ever done this because it would be obviously foolish, one could have it that whenever anyone comes up with anything arguably new, then no one else can ever do the same or similar except with permission. Even if in the course of time obviously others more likely sooner than later would have done the same, nope, whoever was first has monopoly. That would simply be stifling. One doesn't automatically get a right to stop all others from doing similarly as one has done, for everything.

    With regards to American law and generally European law as I understand it, we have patents, trademarks, copyrights, and trade dress.

    Trademark for example would be Hedione. Whether your molecule is new or not, if you (here, Firmenich) decide to give it a particular name for marketing, and you file for it, then you alone have the right to sell under that name. No ethical manufacturer would use that name for their product of the same molecule. Nor would any ethical distributor misbrand the Hedione name onto material from some other manufacturer.

    (That is not to say that no distributor would.)

    Trademarks are names, not formulas.

    Copyright doesn't apply to perfumes. An example would be Gattefosse's book on perfuming. You can't go republish that book on your own, regardless that they're going for over $100 now and it would be easy enough to do. Doing so would be copyright theft, as it is copyrighted.

    Trade dress could apply if copying the bottle and label, for example.

    That leaves patents. You can patent novel ingredients in a perfume, but one cannot in general patent "recipes" (in any field) that simply achieve somewhat predictable results of blending. One cannot patent smells either. Or tastes. That is why for example that while Pepsi is a rip-off of Coca-Cola, it is a legal rip-off. It is up to the customer to decide, and for some time Coke had an advantage because everyone knew it was "the real thing" while Pepsi was the cheap clone option. (These days, both are so watered down and pathetic that market advantage is pretty much just who buys more and better ads, with I think few caring who stole from who, but that's digressing.)

    So perfume ripoffs are in a category where one is not violating the law, but one may readily consider that a ripoff artist is acting unethically.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    But I think Ivor is arguing that getting a GC/MS analysis done is itself unethical or ethically problematic, because of the knowledge transfer and violation of the creator's intentions; quite apart from the question of building of a copy.

    Perhaps he's really arguing that profiting from copies is a trivial sin, when the whole industry including the perfumer from whom one hopes to steal is founded on the unconscionable practice of GC/MS analysis.

  11. #11
    Super Member Ivor Joedy's Avatar
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    Default Run of the Game

    Of course, Bill, I agree with your description of the status quo.

    But as Alysoun mentions, my intention was to show that a perfumer, in contrast to
    other branches, has to violate the intention of other perfumers just by the pure
    decision to be a perfumer.

    In no other branches artists spend so much time in analysing the works of other
    artists, even after the time of learning period. A perfumer has to do thwo
    things: decipher the code of another perfumer and to hide his own code.

    Is it unethical to decipher other perfumes? Is it unethical to hide or even
    encrypt your own code? - or is it part of the game that everyone has to accept
    who participates in the game.

    I think it is ethically justified to gain knowledge through analysis, but then
    - and that's what makes perfumers special - the self-employed Perfumer is more
    than other artists alone to decide where the limit goes.

    In this context it seems to me, that big companies not only own molecules as
    captives, but to some extend also their perfumers.

    As of the the Chinese copyst the case ist clear. This copyst does not steal
    knowledge, he steals customers (he steals money). He does not intend to use his
    knowledge for further development, he is indifferent to the beauty of the
    formulation, he even depraves the formulation to make a cheap copy; he steals
    customers, the actual and the potential.

    But what about a case, where somebody invented some idea, going easily into
    many pretty different products. But some other perfumer has made an analysis and
    sells the obvious variations.

    The first time I read Turin & Sanchez I was attracted by the description of a
    perfume (which I still have no idea about): Yohji Homme.
    Luca Turin, somebody who knows all the best perfumes in the world,
    on holidays in Corsica, writes that he: "fell in love with it so comprehensively
    that I sat at my computer for a couple of hours just smelling my wrist and
    staring at the wall (...)"

    He further writes: "Two tendencies in masculine had been converging for some time
    (...) But their rails could not cross until someone figured out a specially
    shaped piece to make them merge without derailment. The someone was Jean-Michel
    Duriez (...)" He has worked on this idea for years, as Turin writes, "and had
    found the keystone to this accord in Annick Ménardo's brilliant essay on Angel,
    Lolita Lempicka".

    We do not know, how he found out. Every mean is justified. And we do not know how
    many perfumers have done a GC/MS analyses of Yohji Homme.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Very interesting!

    Agreed!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    Hi everyone, I definitely agree that it is stealing to some extent however im not looking to benefit from it other than learn - I'm interested to know how many drops of certain oils make up different types of colognes and the ratios between oil base and the fragrance itself if that makes sense

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fragrance oil

    The answer is it doesn't work that way.

    You will find all kinds of formulas are very different than others in ratios. There is no general guide.

    Here is a nice formula, not mine:

    Orange cold pressed oil 30
    Bergamot essential oil 75
    Labdanum resinoid 70
    Lavender essential oil 70
    Oakmoss absolute 50
    Vanilla absolute 30
    Total: 325

    But does that mean it is typical to use any of these at these values, or ratios, or typical to use this combination? Not at all.

    In fact most of these would be "heavy" these days at being that many parts in 1000.

    Or does it mean it might be fairly typical if having such as this to add some other ingredient, say coumarin, to this? It might be, but this formula happens not to.

    Finding formulas helps to learn but every formula is unique, or should be. And most possible combinations are not good.




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