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  1. #1

    Default Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Hey there!

    I'm attempting to build a 'fougere' fragrace with the limited materials I have available.

    The materials I have are-
    bn.PNG

    EDIT- Forgot to add the EO’s I have- Lavender, petitgrain, ylang


    And the formula I've composed is-
    Capture.jpg

    I quite like it. It has a nice prominent lavender top (though the mentholated aspect of it is a little too much). The zing from the bergamot givco is great while it lasts, but a few minutes in, it loses its sparkles and becomes green/musty/coriander leaves-ish.

    The base is my favourite part though and I love the way the coumarin, oakmoss givco & galaxolide come togethere and create a 'faux dior fahrenheit' soapy effect which gets a nice 3Dish lift effect from the ISE & Ambroxan.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That being said, I'm looking for critique on my methods and formula (I know I like it but I'm sure I've made some gaping fudamental errors lol)

    Also, I would love to hear your suggestions on building a new fougere accord with the limited ingredients I have (I know it's a small list, but can't get more till the pandemic goes away)

    Thanks a bunch
    Last edited by fraghead93; 3rd July 2020 at 09:35 AM.
    Olfactory Museum- trying to immortalize the world of vintage fragrances, one review at a time.
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    Life is too short for just one signature scent-

    1. Azzaro pour Homme (Vintage)
    2. Dior Fahrenheit (Vintage)
    3. Acqua Di Gio (Cosmair)
    4. Tom Ford Amber Absolute

  2. #2

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Broadly, some have the view of "feeling of fougere" which doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to component ingredients, and that of course is quite impossible to discuss in terms of ingredients needed.

    Then there's "fougere according to meaning over generations of perfumers," and that is much easier to discuss in terms of materials.

    I will try here to present a consensus (more or less) opinion arrived at in previous discussion here rather than specifically my own view:

    The classic materials for a fougere are lavender, geranium, coumarin, oak moss, and bergamot. Not necessarily in that order. And "geranium" may be such as geranyl acetate, coumarin could be a coumarin source, oak moss could be Evernyl, etc.

    Have all in a good accord with each other and as a clear theme of the perfume and you have an undoubted fougere.

    Also quite likely you can omit some and still seem clearly a classic fougere, For example, one might omit bergamot or oak moss and still many could find it a fougere in the classic sense.

    The more you omit, the more dubious it may become that it's a fougere.

    it is not unusual to see claims that a fougere is defined by a combination of three of these things, but it varies which three are named, when people name three.

    There has been past authoritarian insistence on this board geranium is an absolute requirement and that's that, but one can find multiple sources giving only lavender and coumarin as the classic requirements, or other short combinations not involving geranium, as well as published formulas lacking geranium.

    There are published fougeres with no lavender either, such as Accord N° 207823 Fougere herbal floral, but my thought is to put them into the "feels like a fougere" category rather than classic fougere. Personally I think one is highly risking one's fragrance not being perceived as in the classic fougere category if omitting lavender. (The mentioned formula does at least have linalyl acetate, which is not particularly lavender but is somewhat in the direction, particularly if it were L-linalyl acetate, but that isn't specified.)

    Jamie pointed out that having a salicylate is also very characteristic of fougeres, particularly amyl or hexyl salicylate. So we could add a sixth characteristic ingredient there.

    In your formula, there is no type of geranium. Personally I would use it. For me, a minimum is lavender, geranium, and coumarin, with preferably oak moss as well.

    I did not look at your ratios.

    EDIT: Glancing back but still not really examining, you have for all practical purposes no coumarin. You may be able to get away with no geranium and still have a fougere to many, but leaving off both geranium and coumarin may just not get you there.

    Sort of like expecting a hamburger but getting onions and lettuce in a bun with no meat or ketchup. For most, that just isn't in the category anymore. A chomp into it will just not satisfy expectations.

    On the other materials you have, you could try DHM at 2% before moving on, if you want to, to trying more. You can try Hedione as low as 2% also before moving up, perhaps next try being 5%. Of course, often it goes much higher than that but there's something to be said for starting at zero and then low amounts. But I would get your basic fougere accord going first before putting more balls in the air.

    On the others, try and see!
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 3rd July 2020 at 01:06 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Regarding your synthetics:

    - You could probably up the coumarin content to, say, 2%.
    - You could experiment with adding 20% hedione, see what it does to the overall performance.
    - Adding dihydromyrcenol to the lavender/bergamot, or replacing a portion with dihydromyrcenol, might give your top more zing.
    - Many of the classic fougeres have vetiver, patchouli and/or sandalwood in their bases, so you could experiment with adding a smidge of the oud base and/or Polysantol.

    You don't mention lavender e.o. on your list, but it's part of your formula - does that mean you have access to essential oils, and it's only new synthetics you can't access at the moment? If so that opens up a lot of options.

    - I second what Bill says about geranium.
    - Vetiver, or possibly patchouli, for the base, or maybe Virginia or Texas cedar.
    - Clary sage, petitgrain, and/or Mentha citrata (i.e. things high in linalyl acetate) could further reinforce your lavender/bergamot.
    - Possibly lemon, lime, sweet orange and/or mandarin for more zing.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Broadly, some have the view of "feeling of fougere" which doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to component ingredients, and that of course is quite impossible to discuss in terms of ingredients needed.

    Then there's "fougere according to meaning over generations of perfumers," and that is much easier to discuss in terms of materials.

    I will try here to present a consensus (more or less) opinion arrived at in previous discussion here rather than specifically my own view:

    The classic materials for a fougere are lavender, geranium, coumarin, oak moss, and bergamot. Not necessarily in that order. And "geranium" may be such as geranyl acetate, coumarin could be a coumarin source, oak moss could be Evernyl, etc.

    Have all in a good accord with each other and as a clear theme of the perfume and you have an undoubted fougere.

    Also quite likely you can omit some and still seem clearly a classic fougere, For example, one might omit bergamot or oak moss and still many could find it a fougere in the classic sense.

    The more you omit, the more dubious it may become that it's a fougere.

    it is not unusual to see claims that a fougere is defined by a combination of three of these things, but it varies which three are named, when people name three.

    There has been past authoritarian insistence on this board geranium is an absolute requirement and that's that, but one can find multiple sources giving only lavender and coumarin as the classic requirements, or other short combinations not involving geranium, as well as published formulas lacking geranium.

    There are published fougeres with no lavender either, such as Accord N° 207823 Fougere herbal floral, but my thought is to put them into the "feels like a fougere" category rather than classic fougere. Personally I think one is highly risking one's fragrance not being perceived as in the classic fougere category if omitting lavender. (The mentioned formula does at least have linalyl acetate, which is not particularly lavender but is somewhat in the direction, particularly if it were L-linalyl acetate, but that isn't specified.)

    Jamie pointed out that having a salicylate is also very characteristic of fougeres, particularly amyl or hexyl salicylate. So we could add a sixth characteristic ingredient there.

    In your formula, there is no type of geranium. Personally I would use it. For me, a minimum is lavender, geranium, and coumarin, with preferably oak moss as well.

    I did not look at your ratios.

    EDIT: Glancing back but still not really examining, you have for all practical purposes no coumarin. You may be able to get away with no geranium and still have a fougere to many, but leaving off both geranium and coumarin may just not get you there.

    Sort of like expecting a hamburger but getting onions and lettuce in a bun with no meat or ketchup. For most, that just isn't in the category anymore. A chomp into it will just not satisfy expectations.

    On the other materials you have, you could try DHM at 2% before moving on, if you want to, to trying more. You can try Hedione as low as 2% also before moving up, perhaps next try being 5%. Of course, often it goes much higher than that but there's something to be said for starting at zero and then low amounts. But I would get your basic fougere accord going first before putting more balls in the air.

    On the others, try and see!
    Thanks for dropping by and giving me direction here Bill. Reading your notes gives me a better understanding on the pillars of the fougere and how I can work my way around it.

    I will first try to play by the rules, build a 'traditional' fougere and then try the bend the rules and see which way it can go

    When it comes to Coumarin, I was immensely surprised how strong of a presence it has by itself even at 1% dilution and to work with it so as to it not taking over I had to further
    reduce it to 0.5%! But I will incorporate your advise and try to amp it up.Maybe around 2% and try upwards.

    On a side note, do you have a favourite fougere? Maybe one available on the market or something you've made? Would love to hear about that fragrance's direction!

    Thanks for the tips on DHM & Hedione, will try them and report back. Cheers my friend
    Olfactory Museum- trying to immortalize the world of vintage fragrances, one review at a time.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/547692531950738/

    The Sheeples Podcast- An attempt to create a virtual 'safe-space' where you can share and build new perspective.
    https://www.thesheeples.in/the-sheeples-podcast



    Life is too short for just one signature scent-

    1. Azzaro pour Homme (Vintage)
    2. Dior Fahrenheit (Vintage)
    3. Acqua Di Gio (Cosmair)
    4. Tom Ford Amber Absolute

  5. #5

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by Septime View Post
    Regarding your synthetics:

    - You could probably up the coumarin content to, say, 2%.
    - You could experiment with adding 20% hedione, see what it does to the overall performance.
    - Adding dihydromyrcenol to the lavender/bergamot, or replacing a portion with dihydromyrcenol, might give your top more zing.
    - Many of the classic fougeres have vetiver, patchouli and/or sandalwood in their bases, so you could experiment with adding a smidge of the oud base and/or Polysantol.

    You don't mention lavender e.o. on your list, but it's part of your formula - does that mean you have access to essential oils, and it's only new synthetics you can't access at the moment? If so that opens up a lot of options.

    - I second what Bill says about geranium.
    - Vetiver, or possibly patchouli, for the base, or maybe Virginia or Texas cedar.
    - Clary sage, petitgrain, and/or Mentha citrata (i.e. things high in linalyl acetate) could further reinforce your lavender/bergamot.
    - Possibly lemon, lime, sweet orange and/or mandarin for more zing.
    Hey Septime, thanks for taking the time to add your detailed thoughts, they really helped me push the boundaries of my thinking!

    Tried to incorporate DHM along with the lavender and begamot opening it does definitely add a niceee soapy, sudsy zing! Now going to keep working upwards and see how it plays

    Interesting to see that hedione could be incorporated here, I used to think that its 'jasmine' effect will have no place in a fougere but obviously I have a lot to learn

    I do have petitgrain and will try to have the lavender, dhm, bergamot + petitgrain and observe the effects and report back.

    Much thanks my friend
    Olfactory Museum- trying to immortalize the world of vintage fragrances, one review at a time.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/547692531950738/

    The Sheeples Podcast- An attempt to create a virtual 'safe-space' where you can share and build new perspective.
    https://www.thesheeples.in/the-sheeples-podcast



    Life is too short for just one signature scent-

    1. Azzaro pour Homme (Vintage)
    2. Dior Fahrenheit (Vintage)
    3. Acqua Di Gio (Cosmair)
    4. Tom Ford Amber Absolute

  6. #6
    Basenotes Member Casper_grassy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by fraghead93 View Post
    Hey Septime, thanks for taking the time to add your detailed thoughts, they really helped me push the boundaries of my thinking!

    Tried to incorporate DHM along with the lavender and begamot opening it does definitely add a niceee soapy, sudsy zing! Now going to keep working upwards and see how it plays

    Interesting to see that hedione could be incorporated here, I used to think that its 'jasmine' effect will have no place in a fougere but obviously I have a lot to learn

    I do have petitgrain and will try to have the lavender, dhm, bergamot + petitgrain and observe the effects and report back.

    Much thanks my friend
    Try adding some more ambroxan, it has great diffusive effects and it blends really well with dhm. Hedione is a hint of jasmine, hedione vs real jasmine is pale in comparison, it is useful to help lift and add that little sparkle and it’s a fantastic blender. I’ve never seen it used but I’ve added some cypriol oil, not a lot but it went pretty damn nicely with it.

    Definitely agree with adding clary sage

  7. #7
    Super Member Wild Gardener's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Paul Kiler posted this in another thread on fougère.

    Basic Fougere
    Lavender 14
    Bergamot 8
    Coumarin 12
    Rose 5
    Jasmin 4
    Patchouli 2
    Vetiver 10
    Geranium 2
    Iso-Amyl Salicylate 3
    Oakmoss absolute 6

    cf: Proportions in a fougere accord?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Fraghead, while nothing but personal taste, as you asked my personal favorite fougeres are vintage Paco Rabanne Pour Homme, Caron Pour Un Homme, Guerlain Mouchoir de Monsieur, and Fougere Royale, though on the last I have only a tiny decant and it is the relatively recent reissue.

    An important point which I don't think I've seen brought out, perhaps because to the more experienced it doesn't need mentioning, is that which lavender and which geranium (or geranium-type material) one picks is of enormous importance to the character of the fougere. There is just tremendous possible range of difference.

    As a personal example, a semi-synaesthesia perhaps that may not match up for anyone else. Part of my perception of scent is that it maps in a way to timbre as with sound. Not that any materials have exact musical pitches, but there are high, mid, and low frequency ranges into which the timbres of musical instruments and a mix fall. For example, when I was a recording engineer and let's say a band had a keyboard player that was inexperienced in the studio and everything else already had the low end covered, I might need to advise him to not double the octaves with the left hand and to keep his left hand mostly up. Otherwise the low end would get cluttered. To me, it is similar with perfume.

    Ordinarily I want my geranium in a fougere to provide plenty of low-mid -- not substantivity, but this frequency or timbre effect that exists to me. And a lavender that is reasonably deep as well.

    However, right now I am going in what is a new direction for me with oud, and the amount of low end richness I have means that if I do a fougere version I need my lavender and geranium to add brilliance and really not any bass or mid-low at all. So I am using in this instance Geranium Terpeneless and PSH Lavender Spanish. Ordinarily I prefer richer, but right now no other single items but these are working for lavender or geranium.

    Long term you will want many lavenders and geraniums. Any formula you see may work very well with given materials chosen for those but poorly with others.

    Definitely not saying you need to grab more lavenders now. Plenty to do with what you have! I expect that any decent lavender can make a fine fougere. Rather it's that the rest of the formula and the final result will vary greatly according to the particular lavender.

    All that said, here's a few published formulas I have in e-mail draft and so easy to copy here. Interestingly some including the Poucher (the last) have no geranium. I did not wish to take the time to do recalculation and as a result the Poucher, due to moving tinctures into the concentrate where he did not have them, totals nearly 1500. So if not wishing to recalculate for 1000 total, just visualize everything as about 2/3 of what it says. E.g., bergamot not 300 but 200, etc.

    Fougere Royale (Appel)

    Bergamot 120
    Linalool 30
    Lavender 70
    Phenylacetaldehyde 10% 20
    Methyl Salicylate 25
    Phenylethyl Alcohol 60
    Geranium 80
    Ylang ylang 10
    Anisic aldehyde 5
    Oakmoss 50
    Benzoin 50% 20
    Labdanum resinoid 10
    Patchouli 10
    Vetiver 5
    Amyl Salicylate 20
    Coumarin 100
    Heliotropine 30
    Hydroxycitronellal 20
    Musk* 60
    Vanillin 5
    Jasmine base** 100


    Fougere
    1. Amylsalicylate 30
    2. Citronellol 50
    3. Cedarwood oil rectified 80
    4. Clove leaf oil 20
    5. Methyl Ionone 80
    6. О±-Terpinylacetate 50
    7. Resinoid Benzoin 20
    8. Resinoid Labdanum 20
    9. Resinoid Oakmoss 25
    10. Geranium oil 40
    11. Lavender oil 55
    12. PEA 50
    13. Patchouli Oil 50
    14. Petitgrain Oil 50
    15. Sandella Rhodia 75
    16. Musk T (Takasago) 100
    17. Neroli 25
    18. Coumarin 60
    19. Ethyl Vanillin 20
    20. Musk Ambrette 50
    21. Musk Xylol 50

    Fuger Type 2
    Lavender Abs 200
    Rosewood oil 100
    Petigrene oil 250
    Citral 50
    Pachulian oil 50
    Vetiver oil 100
    Kumarin 100
    mousse de schen (oak moss, extract) 25*
    Musk Ambre 50
    Source: Friedman R.A. Perfume, 1955


    «Genre fougère» T.Bassiri, 1960:
    Lavender oil 10
    Elemi oil 4
    Citron oil 6
    Nutmeg oil 4
    Сloves bud oil 5
    Rosewood oil (linaloe) 6
    Patchouli oil 4
    Oak moss (Mousse de chene) concrete 3
    Galbanum resins 2
    Cedar oil (USA) 3
    Linalyl acetate 6
    Labdanum concrete 2
    Neroli artificial 8
    Estragon oil 2
    Phenyl ethyl alcohol 16
    Amyl salicylate 5
    Cyclamen aldehyde 10% 2
    Civette natural 1% 4
    Musk ketone 4
    Undecalactone 1% 4
    Источник: "Introduction à l'étude des parfums Matières premières aromatiques d'origine naturelle et de synthèse" Taghi Bassiri, Masson & Cie, 1960


    Type "Fougeraie" (Coty)
    2,5 Lemon oil
    0,5 Sweet Orange oil
    9,0 Bergamot oil
    1,0 Cardamom 10070
    1,0 Spearmint oil 10%
    1,0 Neroli oil
    2,5 Clary Sage oil
    3,0 Linalool
    3,0 Lavender oil
    0,5 Cinnamon Ceylon oil 10%
    5.0 Linalyl Acetate
    2,0 Geranium oil
    1,0 Jasmin abs
    1,0 Anisic Aldehyde
    1,0 Mousse de Chene (Oak Moss)
    0,5 Cloves oil
    2,0 Benzoin oil 50%
    1,0 Castoreum Tr 10%
    4,0 Civet Tr 3%
    1,0 Labdanum res
    1,0 Orris ert 106
    0,5 Styrax res
    1,0 Myrrh 10%
    0,5 Rose abs
    1,0 Rose Bulgarian
    2,0 Methyl ionone
    3,0 Patchouli oil
    6,0 Sandalwood oil
    3,0 Vertiverol
    1,5 Methyl Anthranilate
    10,0 Coumarin
    1,0 Musk Ambrette
    4,0 Musk Ketone
    2,0 Vanillin
    21,0 Diethyl Phtalate
    Итого 100,0
    Источник: Appel book


    Классический фужерный аккорд (Argeville)
    Classic fougere accord:
    2 Linalool synth.*****
    6 Linalyl acetate synth. ****
    5 Bergamot oil (Italy)**********
    3 Petitgrain oil (USA)
    2 Lavandin grosso oil********
    1 Estragole**
    1 Elemi oil
    1 Nutmeg oil *20% SAB****
    3 Hydroxycitronellal***********
    3 Phenethyl alcohol**********
    5 Geranium oil (Egypt)******
    2 Benzyl acetate*****
    7 Anisaldehyde******
    3 Isoamyl salicylate **********
    7 *Benzyl salicylate
    2 Methyl naphthyl ketone*
    1 Cedarwood oil (USA)
    2 Patchouli oil BH incolore**********
    1 Sandalwood oil***
    2 Coumarin*
    2 Heliotropin
    1 Vanillin*****
    3 Galaxolide 50 IPM**********
    8 Musk ketone********
    27 DPG
    Итого 100
    Источник: школа парфюмерии Argeville (Argeville`s school of perfumery)


    Modern fougere accord:
    6,0 Dihydromyrcenol*********
    3,0 Ethyl linalool****
    4,0 Linalool synth.
    6,0 Bergamot oil (Italy) rect SFC nat******
    1,0 Citron oil (South Africa)*********
    2,0 Orange oil
    3,0 Triplal 10% DPG ****
    1,0 Cis-3-Hexenol
    1,0 Calone 10% DPG********
    2,0 Helional
    2,0 Hexyl acetate
    3,0 Peranat (Фруктовый, груша)
    1,0 Rosemary oil (Tunissia)
    3,0 Pepper oil (India) ********
    5,0 Clove oil 10% DPG
    1,0 Lilial **
    2,0 Damascone alpha 10% DPG
    11,0 Hedione
    2,0 Benzyl salicylate
    10,0 Iso-E-super
    2,0 Bacdanol
    1,0 Cedramber********
    4,0 Cashmeran 10% DPG
    1,0 Ambrettolide
    1,0 Cyclohexadecenon
    16,0 Galaxolide DEP
    1,0 Cetalox**
    5,0 DPG*******
    Итого 100,0
    Источник: школа парфюмерии Argeville (Argeville`s school of perfumery)


    Fougere accord Expressions Parfumees:
    150**** Lavender
    250**** Bergamot
    100**** Géraniol
    50****** Géranium Egypt
    100**** Amyl salicilate
    30****** Oakmoss abs
    150**** Coumarin
    50****** Patchouly
    50****** Musc ambrette
    70****** Phénylethyl alcohol
    Источник: Презентация Expressions Parfumees «Basics on Perfumery Formulation»


    Fougere no 1017 (Poucher)

    5 Acetophenone
    100 Benzyl acetate
    100 Rosewood
    200 Lavender
    300 Bergamot
    20 Amyl salicylate
    10 Clary Sage
    10 Anisic aldehyde
    3 Rose Otto
    30 Jasmin Absolute
    3 Civet Absolute
    70 Coumarin
    30 Musk Ambrette
    20 Oakmoss
    30 Patchouli
    40 Sandalwood
    2 Undecylenic Aldehyde
    5 Vanillin
    20 Vetiver
    70 Tonka Resin
    70 Ambergris Tincture 3%
    280 Musk Tincture 3%
    Total: 1420

    Although you don't have all these materials, seeing the ranges of amounts used among the things you do have may give ideas.

    Interesting, btw, that you have such a super-sniffer with regards to coumarin. Prior to IFRA limitation, completely ordinary use was 2-5%, and even 10% was hardly unknown. I do not believe I've ever seen a formula with trace quantity, and personally I couldn't detect in a final formulation the amount you presently have.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 3rd July 2020 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Thanks Bill and everyone else!
    Last edited by chyprefresh; 3rd July 2020 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Just to have in one place with the fougere discussion and perhaps useful for some, the similar question of what material types are fundamental to making a chypre? Again I can only post on the basis of what the word has meant to generations of perfumers rather than what qualifies as a "chypre" in marketing today, or gives feeling of chypre to a given person. Those would be too hard to discuss, at least for me.

    The below is largely from extensive discussion here rather than being particularly my own.

    Classically, from late 19th century and for a number of generations after, chypres must have:

    Oakmoss or mossy effect,
    Bergamot or a citrus effect,
    Musk, and
    A powdery aspect, common sources include musk and/or methyl ionone.

    Chypres typically also have at least one and often all of patchouli, woody, and floral, commonly jasmine and/or rose.

    Amber has been claimed as necessary though not here I think. I don't know if it is genuinely necessary or only highly common. For example Jean Carles has it in the basic chypre accord in his Method. Certainly amber, whether of the labdanum/vanilla, ambergris, Ambroxan, or high-impact amber types, is at least extremely common for chypres.

    A number of sources claim labdanum as a necessity but that appears untrue.* I have erroneously posted opinion previously that labdanum was needed but learned otherwise here.

    Interestingly, a fougere can have chypre aspect or a chypre can have fougere aspect due to considerable overlap of foundational materials.

    Using your example with the Oakmoss, Bergamot, and Galaxolide (which has a powdery aspect) you could well have a chypre out of this as well and not necessarily recognizably a fougere if coumarin is low and there is no geranium, though with the lavender so high I suspect it won't seem chypre-y. There may be a really lavender chypre but I don't know it. Which by no means means it doesn't exist or might not even be famous. It would be interesting if someone does know it.

    EDIT: Websearch shows Tom Ford Beau de Jour is claimed to be a lavender chypre, though the description I read sounds more like an aromatic fougere ( https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Tom...ion-11842.html ), and there is similar claim for Les Belles Lavandes ( https://www.parfumo.net/Perfumes/Pre...Lavande_Chypre .) And a Basenotes member, L'Aventurier, has said it of Sous le Vent ( http://www.basenotes.net/threads/244...All-Time/page2 )

    * FURTHER EDIT: I do recall clearly that evidence was presented here that labdanum is not necessary for a chypre, but presently I can only recall that this was done and I found it persuasive, but cannot recall what the evidence was. I just saw now, quite coincidentally as I was looking for something else, that Elena Vosnaki who I think is a knowledgeable writer wrote to quite the contrary:


    [T]he basic structure of the chypre perfume is an harmony, an "accord", between 3 key ingredients: bergamot (a citrus fruit that grows all around the Mediterranean) - oakmoss (a tree lichen that grows on oaks mainly in the Balkans) - labdanum (a resinoid from cistus ladaniferus, or rockrose, a plant which grows in the Mediterranean basin, especially in Crete and Cyprus which was traditionally amassed off the hair of the goats that grazed on the bush). Three basic, common Mediterranean products, three Cypriot references for Chypre! Whatever other notes the sites/guides mention, those three must be in there for the fragrance at hand to qualify as a "classic chypre", a true descendant of Coty's Chypre from 1917. These "true/pure chypres" include such later perfumes as Carven Ma Griffe (1946) or E.Lauder's Knowing (1988)!

    The tension between the fresh citrusy note and the pungent, earthy odor of oakmoss and of labdanum creates an aesthetic effect that is decidedly inedible (much like the masculine equivalent of fougère fragrances), denoting perfect grooming, always smelling "perfumey", polished, and often powdery. Which makes total sense given the background of the face powder it originated from! It also explains why chypres are extremely popular regardless of fashions in southern Europe as opposed to other countries.

    Exactly because they smell like perfume, i.e. an add-on in no uncertain terms, they project an image of luxury, sophistication, status. They can be cerebral, cool and aloof, a The Times reader rather than chic lit browser, or they can be womanly and intimate like effluvium wafting off the boudoir, but whatever the case chypres always remain steeped in their Aphrodite-originating beauty.

    The beauty of the chypre is that it's a strict fragrance structure, but on this basic scaffolding the perfumer can add accent pieces that make the perfume lean into this or that direction. Like a basic "little black dress", you can accessorize with heels or with boots, with pearls or with chunky gold chains, with a fur stole or a colorful velvet shawl and create dazzlingly different looks.

    Add green notes of grasses, herbs and green-smelling florals (such as hyacinth) and you have "green chypres" (Diorella, Givenchy III, Chanel Cristalle Eau de parfum, Shiseido Koto, E.Lauder Aliage, Jean Couturier Coriandre, Balenciaga Cialenga, Ayalitta by Ayala Moriel, the Deneuve perfume for Avon).

    Emphasize the woodier notes of patchouli, vetiver, pine needles and you have "woody chypres (Niki de Saint Phalle, the classic Halston by Halston, La Perla, Aromatics Elixir).

    Wrap everything in the succulence of ripe fruits -such as plum or peach- and you get the historically important "fruity chypres" league (Guerlain Mitsouko, Rochas Femme, the vintage Dior Diorama, Nina Ricci Deci Dela, Yves Saint Laurent Champagne/Yvresse, Amouage Jubilation 25, Ayala Moriel Autumn, Balenciaga Quadrille, Lutens Chypre Rouge).

    Smother lots of discernible flowers and you get "floral chypres"(Ungaro Diva, Zibeline by Weil, Antilope by Weil, Charlie by Revlon, L'Arte de Gucci, E.Lauder Private Collection, Guerlain Parure, Tauer Une Rose Chypree, Agent Provocateur eau de parfum, DSH Parfum de Grasse, K de Krizia, Germaine Monteil Royal Secret, Armani Pour Femme "classic" by Armani, Esteban Classic Chypre).

    Sparkling aldehydes on top can further the claim that Caleche by Hermes is an "aldehydic chypre" (it's really poised between two categories that one, aldehydic floral and aldehydic chypre).

    Put the growl of a cat-in-heat via copious animal ingredients and "animalic chypres" appear (Miss Dior by Dior, Montana Parfum de Peau, Balmain Jolie Madame, Paloma Picasso).

    Finally, although technically a separate family according to La Société Française des Parfumeurs (whose sub-classification I follow above as well) called "cuir"/"leather fragrances", there are a few perfumes that mingle notes reminiscent of leather goods with the general elements of a chypre, such as Chanel Cuir de Russie, Cabochard by Gres, Piguet Bandit, Caron Tabac Blond, vintage Dior Diorling.

    [C]hypres have been traditionally constructed around a white flowers core (jasmine, tuberose etc), with the all important lily of the valley "opening" the bouquet, just like uncorking a bottle of wine a few minutes prior to drinking lets the aroma develop better. Specifically the more traditional floral "core" was constructed around an impression of gardenia (Another Cypriot reference as the ripe, narcotic blossom grows well on the warm shores of the island). The classic reference for that is the original Miss Dior (from 1947), now circulating as Miss Dior L'Original.

    Even though years have passed and chypres fell out of vogue in the 1990s and early 2000s, there was a renewed interest in them after Narciso for Her eau de toilette was introduced into the market in 2004 (launched as a youthful chypre) and became a modern classic that influenced every other house. Basically these fragrances, which I call "nouveau chypres" (read more on them on this article of mine) are NOT technically chypres, but "woody floral musks" fragrances, with a "clean" non hippy-shop patchouli and vetiver base standing in for the reduced ratio of oakmoss allowed by modern industry regulations in regard to allergens (oakmoss is considered a skin sensitizer and therefore greatly reduced, which accounts for the reformulation -and thus unrecognizable state- of many classics). These include Gucci de Gucci, Lovely by SJP, Guerlain Idylle and Chypre Fatal, L'Eau de Chloe, Miss Dior Chérie, Chance by Chanel and countless others. A few however do manage to smell credible such as the underrated Private Collection Jasmine White Moss by E.Lauder; although totally modern, it doesn't betray the genre and smells like true progeny. Issey Miyake A Scent is taking the greener, airier stance of green chypres.

    Although the term "chypre" nowadays means little to nothing to the modern consumer, as attested by the countless questions I receive when consulting, the industry insists on keeping it. The soft pink shade of these modern juices does make us think of the soft powdery color referenced as "cipria". Femininity, softness, cosmetics and Aphrodite rolled into a modern packaging. Or perhaps it's because chypre has at least 4000 years of history behind it...
    So, you takes your pick and makes your choices... labdanum needed or not for what you are doing? As Paul has often said, You are the Perfumer!

    Further edit: Searching for something else, I happened to see the list I had posted previously of the posts that gave the "labdanum not a requirement" argument. I don't now find the arguments persuasive though I did then. Essentially, Chanel No. 5 was argued to have no labdanum, but the same (very respected skills!) poster now does have labdanum in his Chanel No. 5 version, and furthermore arguably its principally an aldehydic floral anyway. The other reason was argument by authority by a person habitually giving no other basis and for example having been wrong on his authority argument re what is required for a fougere. It was a blunder to be persuaded by those arguments over much stronger ones.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 9th July 2020 at 04:58 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Just to have in one place with the fougere discussion and perhaps useful for some, the similar question of what material types are fundamental to making a chypre? Again I can only post on the basis of what the word has meant to generations of perfumers rather than what qualifies as a "chypre" in marketing today, or gives feeling of chypre to a given person. Those would be too hard to discuss, at least for me.

    The below is largely from extensive discussion here rather than being particularly my own.

    Classically, from late 19th century and for a number of generations after, chypres must have:

    Oakmoss or mossy effect,
    Bergamot or a citrus effect,
    Musk, and
    A powdery aspect, common sources include musk and/or methyl ionone.

    Chypres typically also have at least one of patchouli, woody, and floral, commonly jasmine and/or rose.

    Amber has been claimed as necessary thought not here I think. I don't know if it is genuinely necessary or only highly common. For example Jean Carles has it in the basic chypre accord in his book. Certainly amber, whether of the labdanum/vanilla, ambergris, Ambroxan, or super-amber types, is at least extremely common for chypres.

    A number of sources claim labdanum as a necessity but that appears untrue. I have erroneously posted opinion previously that labdanum was needed but learned otherwise here.

    Interestingly, a fougere can have chypre aspect or a chypre can have fougere aspect due to considerable overlap of foundational materials.

    Using your example with the Oakmoss, Bergamot, and Galaxolide (which has a powdery aspect) you could well have a chypre out of this as well and not necessarily recognizably a fougere if coumarin is low and there is no geranium, though with the lavender so high I suspect it won't seem chypre-y. There may be a really lavender chypre but I don't know it. Which by no means means it doesn't exist or might even be famous. It would be interesting if someone does know it.

    EDIT: Websearch shows Tom Ford Beau de Jour is claimed to be a lavender chypre, though the description I read sounds more like an aromatic fougere ( https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Tom...ion-11842.html ), and there is similar claim for Les Belles Lavandes ( https://www.parfumo.net/Perfumes/Pre...Lavande_Chypre .) And a Basenotes member, L'Aventurier, has said it of Sous le Vent ( http://www.basenotes.net/threads/244...All-Time/page2 )
    And I too have heard a touch of sweetness either from vanilla or labdanum are sometimes required but don't know for sure. Given your specifications, my contest perfume definitely qualifies as a chypre, and at the very least one other category.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Link to above article quoted in a major edit to above post, perhaps quite interesting or even useful for some interested in chypres: https://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/2...ances-for.html

    Also recommended reading from same author if interested in opinions on chypre aesthetics: http://perfumeshrine.blogspot.com/20...esthetics.html , as most certainly good work is not simply having the required ingredients checked off. What aesthetics are typically achieved overall? Of course one can also gather this from smelling but seeing in words is good also.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Fraghead, while nothing but personal taste, as you asked my personal favorite fougeres are vintage Paco Rabanne Pour Homme, Caron Pour Un Homme, Guerlain Mouchoir de Monsieur, and Fougere Royale, though on the last I have only a tiny decant and it is the relatively recent reissue.

    An important point which I don't think I've seen brought out, perhaps because to the more experienced it doesn't need mentioning, is that which lavender and which geranium (or geranium-type material) one picks is of enormous importance to the character of the fougere. There is just tremendous possible range of difference.

    As a personal example, a semi-synaesthesia perhaps that may not match up for anyone else. Part of my perception of scent is that it maps in a way to timbre as with sound. Not that any materials have exact musical pitches, but there are high, mid, and low frequency ranges into which the timbres of musical instruments and a mix fall. For example, when I was a recording engineer and let's say a band had a keyboard player that was inexperienced in the studio and everything else already had the low end covered, I might need to advise him to not double the octaves with the left hand and to keep his left hand mostly up. Otherwise the low end would get cluttered. To me, it is similar with perfume.

    Ordinarily I want my geranium in a fougere to provide plenty of low-mid -- not substantivity, but this frequency or timbre effect that exists to me. And a lavender that is reasonably deep as well.

    However, right now I am going in what is a new direction for me with oud, and the amount of low end richness I have means that if I do a fougere version I need my lavender and geranium to add brilliance and really not any bass or mid-low at all. So I am using in this instance Geranium Terpeneless and PSH Lavender Spanish. Ordinarily I prefer richer, but right now no other single items but these are working for lavender or geranium.

    Long term you will want many lavenders and geraniums. Any formula you see may work very well with given materials chosen for those but poorly with others.

    Definitely not saying you need to grab more lavenders now. Plenty to do with what you have! I expect that any decent lavender can make a fine fougere. Rather it's that the rest of the formula and the final result will vary greatly according to the particular lavender.

    All that said, here's a few published formulas I have in e-mail draft and so easy to copy here. Interestingly some including the Poucher (the last) have no geranium. I did not wish to take the time to do recalculation and as a result the Poucher, due to moving tinctures into the concentrate where he did not have them, totals nearly 1500. So if not wishing to recalculate for 1000 total, just visualize everything as about 2/3 of what it says. E.g., bergamot not 300 but 200, etc.

    Fougere Royale (Appel)

    Bergamot 120
    Linalool 30
    Lavender 70
    Phenylacetaldehyde 10% 20
    Methyl Salicylate 25
    Phenylethyl Alcohol 60
    Geranium 80
    Ylang ylang 10
    Anisic aldehyde 5
    Oakmoss 50
    Benzoin 50% 20
    Labdanum resinoid 10
    Patchouli 10
    Vetiver 5
    Amyl Salicylate 20
    Coumarin 100
    Heliotropine 30
    Hydroxycitronellal 20
    Musk* 60
    Vanillin 5
    Jasmine base** 100


    Fougere
    1. Amylsalicylate 30
    2. Citronellol 50
    3. Cedarwood oil rectified 80
    4. Clove leaf oil 20
    5. Methyl Ionone 80
    6. О±-Terpinylacetate 50
    7. Resinoid Benzoin 20
    8. Resinoid Labdanum 20
    9. Resinoid Oakmoss 25
    10. Geranium oil 40
    11. Lavender oil 55
    12. PEA 50
    13. Patchouli Oil 50
    14. Petitgrain Oil 50
    15. Sandella Rhodia 75
    16. Musk T (Takasago) 100
    17. Neroli 25
    18. Coumarin 60
    19. Ethyl Vanillin 20
    20. Musk Ambrette 50
    21. Musk Xylol 50

    Fuger Type 2
    Lavender Abs 200
    Rosewood oil 100
    Petigrene oil 250
    Citral 50
    Pachulian oil 50
    Vetiver oil 100
    Kumarin 100
    mousse de schen (oak moss, extract) 25*
    Musk Ambre 50
    Source: Friedman R.A. Perfume, 1955


    «Genre fougère» T.Bassiri, 1960:
    Lavender oil 10
    Elemi oil 4
    Citron oil 6
    Nutmeg oil 4
    Сloves bud oil 5
    Rosewood oil (linaloe) 6
    Patchouli oil 4
    Oak moss (Mousse de chene) concrete 3
    Galbanum resins 2
    Cedar oil (USA) 3
    Linalyl acetate 6
    Labdanum concrete 2
    Neroli artificial 8
    Estragon oil 2
    Phenyl ethyl alcohol 16
    Amyl salicylate 5
    Cyclamen aldehyde 10% 2
    Civette natural 1% 4
    Musk ketone 4
    Undecalactone 1% 4
    Источник: "Introduction à l'étude des parfums Matières premières aromatiques d'origine naturelle et de synthèse" Taghi Bassiri, Masson & Cie, 1960


    Type "Fougeraie" (Coty)
    2,5 Lemon oil
    0,5 Sweet Orange oil
    9,0 Bergamot oil
    1,0 Cardamom 10070
    1,0 Spearmint oil 10%
    1,0 Neroli oil
    2,5 Clary Sage oil
    3,0 Linalool
    3,0 Lavender oil
    0,5 Cinnamon Ceylon oil 10%
    5.0 Linalyl Acetate
    2,0 Geranium oil
    1,0 Jasmin abs
    1,0 Anisic Aldehyde
    1,0 Mousse de Chene (Oak Moss)
    0,5 Cloves oil
    2,0 Benzoin oil 50%
    1,0 Castoreum Tr 10%
    4,0 Civet Tr 3%
    1,0 Labdanum res
    1,0 Orris ert 106
    0,5 Styrax res
    1,0 Myrrh 10%
    0,5 Rose abs
    1,0 Rose Bulgarian
    2,0 Methyl ionone
    3,0 Patchouli oil
    6,0 Sandalwood oil
    3,0 Vertiverol
    1,5 Methyl Anthranilate
    10,0 Coumarin
    1,0 Musk Ambrette
    4,0 Musk Ketone
    2,0 Vanillin
    21,0 Diethyl Phtalate
    Итого 100,0
    Источник: Appel book


    Классический фужерный аккорд (Argeville)
    Classic fougere accord:
    2 Linalool synth.*****
    6 Linalyl acetate synth. ****
    5 Bergamot oil (Italy)**********
    3 Petitgrain oil (USA)
    2 Lavandin grosso oil********
    1 Estragole**
    1 Elemi oil
    1 Nutmeg oil *20% SAB****
    3 Hydroxycitronellal***********
    3 Phenethyl alcohol**********
    5 Geranium oil (Egypt)******
    2 Benzyl acetate*****
    7 Anisaldehyde******
    3 Isoamyl salicylate **********
    7 *Benzyl salicylate
    2 Methyl naphthyl ketone*
    1 Cedarwood oil (USA)
    2 Patchouli oil BH incolore**********
    1 Sandalwood oil***
    2 Coumarin*
    2 Heliotropin
    1 Vanillin*****
    3 Galaxolide 50 IPM**********
    8 Musk ketone********
    27 DPG
    Итого 100
    Источник: школа парфюмерии Argeville (Argeville`s school of perfumery)


    Modern fougere accord:
    6,0 Dihydromyrcenol*********
    3,0 Ethyl linalool****
    4,0 Linalool synth.
    6,0 Bergamot oil (Italy) rect SFC nat******
    1,0 Citron oil (South Africa)*********
    2,0 Orange oil
    3,0 Triplal 10% DPG ****
    1,0 Cis-3-Hexenol
    1,0 Calone 10% DPG********
    2,0 Helional
    2,0 Hexyl acetate
    3,0 Peranat (Фруктовый, груша)
    1,0 Rosemary oil (Tunissia)
    3,0 Pepper oil (India) ********
    5,0 Clove oil 10% DPG
    1,0 Lilial **
    2,0 Damascone alpha 10% DPG
    11,0 Hedione
    2,0 Benzyl salicylate
    10,0 Iso-E-super
    2,0 Bacdanol
    1,0 Cedramber********
    4,0 Cashmeran 10% DPG
    1,0 Ambrettolide
    1,0 Cyclohexadecenon
    16,0 Galaxolide DEP
    1,0 Cetalox**
    5,0 DPG*******
    Итого 100,0
    Источник: школа парфюмерии Argeville (Argeville`s school of perfumery)


    Fougere accord Expressions Parfumees:
    150**** Lavender
    250**** Bergamot
    100**** Géraniol
    50****** Géranium Egypt
    100**** Amyl salicilate
    30****** Oakmoss abs
    150**** Coumarin
    50****** Patchouly
    50****** Musc ambrette
    70****** Phénylethyl alcohol
    Источник: Презентация Expressions Parfumees «Basics on Perfumery Formulation»


    Fougere no 1017 (Poucher)

    5 Acetophenone
    100 Benzyl acetate
    100 Rosewood
    200 Lavender
    300 Bergamot
    20 Amyl salicylate
    10 Clary Sage
    10 Anisic aldehyde
    3 Rose Otto
    30 Jasmin Absolute
    3 Civet Absolute
    70 Coumarin
    30 Musk Ambrette
    20 Oakmoss
    30 Patchouli
    40 Sandalwood
    2 Undecylenic Aldehyde
    5 Vanillin
    20 Vetiver
    70 Tonka Resin
    70 Ambergris Tincture 3%
    280 Musk Tincture 3%
    Total: 1420

    Although you don't have all these materials, seeing the ranges of amounts used among the things you do have may give ideas.

    Interesting, btw, that you have such a super-sniffer with regards to coumarin. Prior to IFRA limitation, completely ordinary use was 2-5%, and even 10% was hardly unknown. I do not believe I've ever seen a formula with trace quantity, and personally I couldn't detect in a final formulation the amount you presently have.
    Thanks once again my friend, I'm glad to see that you too appreciate the brilliance of vintage paco rabanne pour homme. For all marketing purposes I've read that it was the very first aromatic fougere and Azzaro soon followed suit. Something about PR's soapy, sudsy, clovey base always make me nostalgic and takes me back to being a sobbing child being comforted in his father's safe arms. I think once that kind of emotional bond is forged, whether the fragrance is objectively 'good' or 'bad', it's quite difficult for any other fragrance to challenge that. Maybe that's why as one of my first creations I sought to create a fougere and I'm so glad that you've selflessly poured from your knowledge.

    - Know I now that the 'type' of lavender is an equally important choice as choosing to have lavender
    - Fragrance creation can be understood and visualised better through how one understands music composition
    - For a fougere Coumarin is an extremely essential aspect and my sensitivity levels should not discourage me from adding more
    Olfactory Museum- trying to immortalize the world of vintage fragrances, one review at a time.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/547692531950738/

    The Sheeples Podcast- An attempt to create a virtual 'safe-space' where you can share and build new perspective.
    https://www.thesheeples.in/the-sheeples-podcast



    Life is too short for just one signature scent-

    1. Azzaro pour Homme (Vintage)
    2. Dior Fahrenheit (Vintage)
    3. Acqua Di Gio (Cosmair)
    4. Tom Ford Amber Absolute

  14. #14

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Just to have in one place with the fougere discussion and perhaps useful for some, the similar question of what material types are fundamental to making a chypre? Again I can only post on the basis of what the word has meant to generations of perfumers rather than what qualifies as a "chypre" in marketing today, or gives feeling of chypre to a given person. Those would be too hard to discuss, at least for me.

    The below is largely from extensive discussion here rather than being particularly my own.

    Classically, from late 19th century and for a number of generations after, chypres must have:

    Oakmoss or mossy effect,
    Bergamot or a citrus effect,
    Musk, and
    A powdery aspect, common sources include musk and/or methyl ionone.

    Chypres typically also have at least one and often all of patchouli, woody, and floral, commonly jasmine and/or rose.

    Amber has been claimed as necessary though not here I think. I don't know if it is genuinely necessary or only highly common. For example Jean Carles has it in the basic chypre accord in his Method. Certainly amber, whether of the labdanum/vanilla, ambergris, Ambroxan, or high-impact amber types, is at least extremely common for chypres.

    A number of sources claim labdanum as a necessity but that appears untrue.* I have erroneously posted opinion previously that labdanum was needed but learned otherwise here.

    Interestingly, a fougere can have chypre aspect or a chypre can have fougere aspect due to considerable overlap of foundational materials.

    Using your example with the Oakmoss, Bergamot, and Galaxolide (which has a powdery aspect) you could well have a chypre out of this as well and not necessarily recognizably a fougere if coumarin is low and there is no geranium, though with the lavender so high I suspect it won't seem chypre-y. There may be a really lavender chypre but I don't know it. Which by no means means it doesn't exist or might not even be famous. It would be interesting if someone does know it.

    EDIT: Websearch shows Tom Ford Beau de Jour is claimed to be a lavender chypre, though the description I read sounds more like an aromatic fougere ( https://www.fragrantica.com/news/Tom...ion-11842.html ), and there is similar claim for Les Belles Lavandes ( https://www.parfumo.net/Perfumes/Pre...Lavande_Chypre .) And a Basenotes member, L'Aventurier, has said it of Sous le Vent ( http://www.basenotes.net/threads/244...All-Time/page2 )

    * FURTHER EDIT: I do recall clearly that evidence was presented here that labdanum is not necessary for a chypre, but presently I can only recall that this was done and I found it persuasive, but cannot recall what the evidence was. I just saw now, quite coincidentally as I was looking for something else, that Elena Vosnaki who I think is a knowledgeable writer wrote to quite the contrary:




    So, you takes your pick and makes your choices... labdanum needed or not for what you are doing? As Paul has often said, You are the Perfumer!
    The article was indeed a wonderful read! Thanks for turning the head on the discussion and pointing out that I could attempt a 'chypre' too with the ingredients in my humble quiver. I have unknowingly used them multiple times together for 'effect (often a nice combination of Galaxolide& Ambrettolide with a layer of the oakmoss givco with the final wisp of bergamot givco and just the smallest hint of petitgrain and DHM)', but now I can appreciate it furthermore because of context

    I shall continue to work in the fougere and chypre directions, alternating the path and creating multiple iterations. Hopefully one day I can send a sample to you and others who have helped here, but till then all I have is gratitude and thanks
    Olfactory Museum- trying to immortalize the world of vintage fragrances, one review at a time.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/547692531950738/

    The Sheeples Podcast- An attempt to create a virtual 'safe-space' where you can share and build new perspective.
    https://www.thesheeples.in/the-sheeples-podcast



    Life is too short for just one signature scent-

    1. Azzaro pour Homme (Vintage)
    2. Dior Fahrenheit (Vintage)
    3. Acqua Di Gio (Cosmair)
    4. Tom Ford Amber Absolute

  15. #15

    Default Re: Help me build a fougere! (With my limited materials)

    Quote Originally Posted by fraghead93 View Post
    Thanks once again my friend, I'm glad to see that you too appreciate the brilliance of vintage paco rabanne pour homme. For all marketing purposes I've read that it was the very first aromatic fougere and Azzaro soon followed suit. Something about PR's soapy, sudsy, clovey base always make me nostalgic and takes me back to being a sobbing child being comforted in his father's safe arms. I think once that kind of emotional bond is forged, whether the fragrance is objectively 'good' or 'bad', it's quite difficult for any other fragrance to challenge that. Maybe that's why as one of my first creations I sought to create a fougere and I'm so glad that you've selflessly poured from your knowledge.

    - Know I now that the 'type' of lavender is an equally important choice as choosing to have lavender
    - Fragrance creation can be understood and visualised better through how one understands music composition
    - For a fougere Coumarin is an extremely essential aspect and my sensitivity levels should not discourage me from adding more
    Thank you, I'm very glad you found things of use.

    I do want to clarify on my musical analogy, if not clear already -- you may have gotten my meaning exactly already, but just in case.

    Sometimes I try analogies. Particularly when it comes to the senses this can be weak. For example, perceived "color" of scents is something people tend not to agree on reliably. We could share our perceptions but it may or may not help. Recently someone wanted to know what gave the "blueness" to lavender. I said to try natural linalyl acetate (L-linalyl acetate, predominantly) to see if that was it for them. No one ever replied one way or the other so who knows whether my color perceptions matched up to the OP's.

    For the one here, I do find a similarity, and thought perhaps by analogy some kind could figure, "Yes, we could have a number of guitars and other instruments in the mid and high range having a great jam session, but you'll never see a whole bunch of bass guitar, upright bass, tuba double bass, etc players all going. That doesn't work. And even on the same instrument say piano you can have denser chords high than you can low. So I can see maybe if some materials are perceived by a person as having a 'low frequency' then maybe he could successfully have fewer going at a time there than with medium or high 'pitched' materials."

    But not the other way around of taking the music idea and applying onto perfume whether sensing as a problem or not. But maybe when sensing a problem, that kind of cross-thinking could guide towards solution or make one feel more confident in it.




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