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  1. #1

    Default Diluting exaltolide

    Hi people,

    I need some help.

    I bought 100% Exaltolide which turned out to be solid from Pell Wall. Seeing as they offer Exalltolide diluted in Ethanol and another diluted in DPG, i thought i could dilute the undiluted Exaltolide in Perfumer's alcohol. Having received this musk and diluted in Perfumer's alcohol, both liquids have separated.

    Is anyone able to shed light on what's happened?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    What is the product you have as "perfumer's alcohol?"

    There is some (needlessly and undesirably) junked up products using that name.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    DPG might be OK too, to continue dilution. Have you consulted the dilution info for Exaltolide on TGSC?
    Is it cold where you live right now?
    What dilution ratio did you use?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    I’ve always used DPG for 50% dilution and haven’t ever had any issues with separation. I would suggest using that, and if you don’t have any I would highly recommend purchasing some. It is a great solvent and very inexpensive when compared to other solvents like TEC.

    Ethanol is usually the last solvent I reach for when it comes to diluting aroma compounds. There are a few that it works really well for but in general it’s not as versatile as DPG.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    What is the product you have as "perfumer's alcohol?"

    There is some (needlessly and undesirably) junked up products using that name.
    Actually, the perfumer's alcohol I bought is a product of mistralni. I bought the bottle I'm currently using from Pellwall, so I'm very surprised the solution has separated.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    DPG might be OK too, to continue dilution. Have you consulted the dilution info for Exaltolide on TGSC?
    Is it cold where you live right now?
    What dilution ratio did you use?
    Because I'm using this musk in a diffuser, I specifically didn't want to use DPG. I find with using DPG it take a while for the the oil to travel up the reeds and be dispersed around the room.

    No, where I'm living is actually quite warm.

    I used 50% exaltolide and 50% perfumer's alc. The funny thing us it worked well when I diluted 10% exaltolide in 90% alc.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Levanthenon View Post
    I’ve always used DPG for 50% dilution and haven’t ever had any issues with separation. I would suggest using that, and if you don’t have any I would highly recommend purchasing some. It is a great solvent and very inexpensive when compared to other solvents like TEC.

    Ethanol is usually the last solvent I reach for when it comes to diluting aroma compounds. There are a few that it works really well for but in general it’s not as versatile as DPG.
    I'm not keen on using DPG because I'll be using it in a Reed diffuser, but if the problem persists then I may have no other choice.

    Why is ethanol the last solvent you'd choose to use?

  8. #8
    Basenotes Member -db-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautifully African View Post
    I used 50% exaltolide and 50% perfumer's alc. The funny thing us it worked well when I diluted 10% exaltolide in 90% alc.
    All solvent (the OH) and solute systems have dissolution and saturation limits. E.g., one can only dissolve a limited amount of salt in water. Keep adding salt beyond saturation limit and the salt just settles out as separate solid phase.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Mistral "perfumer's alcohol" has junk in it. If you're trying the same percentage dilution that Pell Wall are succeeding with, the difference likely is that their alcohol is not junked up but yours is.

    Edit: On checking, the PW site does say their dilution is 50% undenatured ethanol, so I would assume that works even though 50% Mistral does not.

    A weaker dilution likely will work, or possibly this could be reason to move from junked-up stuff.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 1st August 2020 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    I expect it is the propylene glycol that it's junked up with that is to blame.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautifully African View Post
    I'm not keen on using DPG because I'll be using it in a Reed diffuser, but if the problem persists then I may have no other choice.

    Why is ethanol the last solvent you'd choose to use?
    Ethanol is slightly polar because of its hydroxyl group. This is why it is soluble in water where DPG and other solvents are not. Most aroma compounds are very non polar and often times they don’t mix well with ethanol in quantities that exceed 10%.

    In short like things dissolve in like solvents. Ethanol is in between water and organic solvents so it’s very functional as an intermediary that can tackle many different solutes. However, it is not fully non polar and very non polar materials will not mix well.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    If you're going to be using this in a reed diffuser, consider trying Augeo:

    https://www.creatingperfume.com/augeocleanmulti.aspx

    Sounds like you are possibly in the UK or EU. Not sure of suppliers over there (and perfumersearch.com is down still), but you should be able to find it.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by -db- View Post
    All solvent (the OH) and solute systems have dissolution and saturation limits. E.g., one can only dissolve a limited amount of salt in water. Keep adding salt beyond saturation limit and the salt just settles out as separate solid phase.
    Right, ok. thank you.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by elizadys View Post
    If you're going to be using this in a reed diffuser, consider trying Augeo:

    https://www.creatingperfume.com/augeocleanmulti.aspx

    Sounds like you are possibly in the UK or EU. Not sure of suppliers over there (and perfumersearch.com is down still), but you should be able to find it.
    I'm well aware of using Augeo, i'm using it as the diffuser base but i need a solvent to dilute the musk.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Augeo Clean Multi is a solvent and if suitable for a diffuser then certainly is suitable as a candidate for diluent for a diffuser product.

    You could get real alcohol instead of the junked-up stuff. (If genuine alcohol, by which I mean undesirably unadulterated with materials besides perfuming-acceptable denaturants, is available to you.)

    You could run a higher dilution with the Mistral you have. At some point it will all dissolve, despite the propylene glycol that it undesirably includes.

    You could try the Augeo Clean Multi.

    You could also choose to not predilute at all, if necessary warming the Exaltolide to dispense.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Exaltolide is perfectly soluble in ethanol. You can find the alcohol concentration comparing its density with the table:
    https://wissen.science-and-fun.de/ch...ater-mixtures/

  17. #17

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    It looks like the OP does not want to deal with, or does not want to acknowledge, the fact that his "Perfumer's Alcohol" is not a properly denatured ethanol, or pure 190 or 200 proof ethanol, but is a junked-up product that creates desirable appearance for itself by calling itself "Perfumer's Alcohol" while being no standard product for perfuming.

    One should not imagine that Mistral has expertise in perfume-making and based on that one should rely on their theories of what should be in alcohol used for perfuming.

    Here is an example Mistral perfume formula, posted by them on their webpage in their instructions on "How To Make Your Own Perfume." This should give an idea of their competence with regard to perfume formulation:

    Amaze Perfume

    2 cups distilled water
    3 tablespoons perfumers alcohol
    5 drops hypericum perforatum essential oil (St. John’s wort)
    10 drops cypress essential/fragrance oil
    10 drops rosemary essential/fragrance oil
    What a joke of a formula! That's "How To Make Your Own Perfume"?!? No it isn't, and using their product is not how to make perfume either.

    Don't add propylene glycol to your perfume formulas.

    Don't buy alcohol for perfuming that has propylene glycol or other "improvements" pre-added to it. What? Don't you at least often need fixatives in perfuming? Isn't it desirable for someone else to have already figured it out for you? No, for each of your formulas that may require a fixative, choose your own fixative(s) and amounts rather than rely on one-size-fits-all, particularly where decided on by a company as unknowledgeable about perfuming as Mistral must be, from their above advice on how to make perfume.

    If you do buy such junked-up "perfumer's alcohol," problems will sooner or later result in one way or another. Perhaps some you will notice, such this, while other times harms may occur without your realizing the cause or even perhaps realizing that harm was caused. An example such harm, flattening of the perfume from over-fixation.

    Alcohol used for perfuming should be 190 or 200 proof ethanol, optionally with perfuming-acceptable denaturants, and nothing else.

    That is almost certainly the cause of the problem.

    As the OP has demonstrated not being interested in the information I provided about the Mistral, or chose for followup posts to be exactly as if I had never provided it, this is written for others reading the thread.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Mistral "perfumer's alcohol" has junk in it. If you're trying the same percentage dilution that Pell Wall are succeeding with, the difference likely is that their alcohol is not junked up but yours is.

    Edit: On checking, the PW site does say their dilution is 50% undenatured ethanol, so I would assume that works even though 50% Mistral does not.

    A weaker dilution likely will work, or possibly this could be reason to move from junked-up stuff.
    It didn't even crossed my mind that this perfumer's alc. might be "junked up".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    Augeo Clean Multi is a solvent and if suitable for a diffuser then certainly is suitable as a candidate for diluent for a diffuser product.

    You could get real alcohol instead of the junked-up stuff. (If genuine alcohol, by which I mean undesirably unadulterated with materials besides perfuming-acceptable denaturants, is available to you.)

    You could run a higher dilution with the Mistral you have. At some point it will all dissolve, despite the propylene glycol that it undesirably includes.

    You could try the Augeo Clean Multi.

    You could also choose to not predilute at all, if necessary warming the Exaltolide to dispense.
    I've actually diluted an ingredient (i can't remember which one) in Augeo, but I remember i was unable to smell it as strongly as i would have hoped. After that, it put me off trying to dilute any ingredient in it.

    I was under the impression that purchasing alcohol that has 80%+ ethanol requires a license?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    I'm afraid I don't recall your country. In many countries, so long as regulatory-acceptable denaturants are added, no license is necessary, or at least not for purchasing only modest amounts.

    Different countries do have different formulas and regulations for denaturants.

    I had not heard of a country where 80% was a relevant value. (Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.) The problem being addressed is drinkability, and limiting concentration to 80% would do nothing towards that, so it would be a puzzling requirement if it exists.

    I don't know why Pell Wall sell that stuff. On the positive side they have a tremendous array, say 99% or more of their stuff, that is indisputably fine material provided by others which they resell. But then there's such as this, and the self-efforts such as the "Sandalwood" and "Neroli" bases which are quite sad (IMO anyway.)

  20. #20

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by marcio.leandro View Post
    Exaltolide is perfectly soluble in ethanol. You can find the alcohol concentration comparing its density with the table:
    https://wissen.science-and-fun.de/ch...ater-mixtures/
    Thank you for this. I'll check it out.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Diluting exaltolide

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautifully African View Post
    It didn't even crossed my mind that this perfumer's alc. might be "junked up".
    Yes, it is very deceptive, this practice of coming up with one's own formula and slapping the name "Perfumer's Alcohol" on it. It makes it sound as if it is what perfumers commonly use, which is completely untrue. They are not the only ones ever to have done this.

    It is another thing we have to watch out for, which is not obvious at all.

    The only things a perfumer needs from alcohol are being 190-200* proof, legal to purchase, preferably with no beverage alcohol tax attached, and containing no toxic or odorous denaturants.

    Frankly, it's impossible to buy the number of materials involved in perfuming without getting taken from time to time by products with deceptive names and the like. I am none too fond of any of the times I've been taken, and it's certainly been several. That is why I try to get the information out about such things.

    *One might well be able to make perfumes with slightly lower proof, but this range is preferable. If ever preferring more water for a given formula, e.g. body splash or whatever, certainly do so by choice according to each particular formula, rather than having one-size-fits-all predilution.




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