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  1. #1

    Default Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Hello,
    I have created a perfume I like and I feel the top notes would do great with a cherry smell. Does anyone have an idea how to compose a cherry that doesn' last long?
    Second question. If I want to sell my perfume I want to be 100% sure it is in the limits put by the industry. What's the name of the chemical analysis to verify that? Is it expensive and are all chemistry laboratories capable of doing it?
    Thanks you!

  2. #2
    Super Member otocione's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    As for the perfume someone else could answer, for the analisys I can tell it's Gas Chromatography - Mass Spectrometry (GC-MS) a coupled technique which you can have done on your sample for less than 100 euros I guess, and generally it's available in every normal laboratory.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  3. #3

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Heliotropin?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Heliotropin is a good example if you're interested in a Cherry Top Note. You could also play around with Benzyl Acetate and Phenethyl Alcohol for added confectionary value.

    In terms of being 100% compliant, you could follow the IFRA Standards and then refer to any legislation for the country you intend to retail your fragrance in.

    Utilise a good balance to weigh your product!!
    Australian Blog on Fine Fragrance ---> http://savourandscent.tumblr.com/

    Winemaker/Perfumer for Emerald Vintners ---> www.emeraldvintners.com.au

  5. #5

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Good suggestions here already, but Anisyl acetate would be another option for the cherry fragrance, though it’s more of a middle than a top note.

    It isn’t usual industry practice to have your final product analysed, but instead to devise your formula such that you are in compliance with the standards. I am not aware of anyone who will perform a GC-MS analysis on a finished product and then provide certification that the product is in compliance with the IFRA standards, though the service may exist somewhere.

    What other legislation you have to comply with depends on where in the world you want to make and sell your product: the EU has more-or-less harmonised rules derived from the Cosmetics Directive and there are similar, but slightly different rules in the US with some extra ones concerning the use of volatile organic compounds. This is a very complex area . . .
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Turns out there is info for cherry in the single note thread too http://www.basenotes.net/threads/246925-Cherry

  7. #7

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Good spot.

    If you decide to use the benzaldehyde suggested in that thread, keep in mind that the IFRA restriction is just 0.27% in an alcoholic perfume and also note that it is present in small amounts in a large number of natural materials, so it is quite easy to slip over that limit if you also add it as an aroma-chemical.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 11th January 2012 at 02:06 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Thank you for all the information, I'll try your suggestions as soon as my order arrives!
    As long as the GC-MS is concerned I believed it would be as simple as taking the results from the lab
    and then compare everything with the IFRA list. I don't want to sound naive but isn't it possible?
    Unfortunately I didn't have a scale when I made my first bunch of dilutions and I can't tell for sure how
    much my formula now is in compliance or not.

  9. #9
    Super Member otocione's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Quote Originally Posted by princeOK View Post
    As long as the GC-MS is concerned I believed it would be as simple as taking the results from the lab
    and then compare everything with the IFRA list. I don't want to sound naive but isn't it possible?
    Yes you just have to thell them that you need the results in a suitable layout (such as: name of the compound / % of it in the mixture), once you have it you can do the rest by yourself.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  10. #10

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Getting something by GC-MS isn't as simple as rocking up and paying a few dollars. You gotta be pretty specific and know what you're doing.

    More often than not, they aren't going to get back to you with a read-out 'This is what is in your fragrance'.

    Depending on the machine they're using, whether it's HPLC, or a GC that simply boils the liquid, or a GC that utilises headspace chromatography.

    They'll most likely give you a graph that shows certain spikes. If you don't know how to interpret the data, you'll have no idea what you're looking at.

    Furthermore, you may not be looking at a simple breakdown of your ingredients. It takes a highly skilled GCMS operator, with a good logistical knowledge of fragrance to produce a reliable graph.

    They must take into account heat effects on various aroma chemicals and their interactions.

    Also, it won't give you a very accurate image of how the fragrance is going to smell, multiple Headspace GC readings over a number of hours will show this.

    In short, there is a more simple way:

    Find yourself a TRADE APPROVED Balance. These are balances that are configured in a particular way, to a particular standard. Their serial numbers are noted on a Trade Approved Database. You are allowed to use these balances for official recordings of the amount of product in your formula.

    Cross reference these values with IFRA standards and the local legislation for the country to intend to retail your products...
    Australian Blog on Fine Fragrance ---> http://savourandscent.tumblr.com/

    Winemaker/Perfumer for Emerald Vintners ---> www.emeraldvintners.com.au

  11. #11
    Super Member otocione's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    @BCarter
    A trade balance is certainly a good way to have official recordings, but if he just wants to know what is in his mixture by doing some analisys, than any good laboratory can give him the results in a layout which can be read by anyone. Labs that works for retail customers never give you GC-MS raw graphs, but they use a software connected with a suitable database which recognises the peaks and gives you results in terms of percentage of every particular compound over the total amount. It's a service for pepole who are not chemists, it would be useless if they gave you complex information.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  12. #12

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    I'd love to know a place in Australia that'll do that for less than a couple hundred dollars.

    You'd also want to make sure that the graphs are reliable enough to fall back on if there are ever issues with compliance.

    Regardless, as per princeOK's question: 'If I want to sell my perfume I want to be 100% sure it is in the limits put by the industry.'

    You're going to need a Trade Approved balance to be able to take official recordings of what is inside your fragrance anyway.

    I know, at least in Australia, you can't throw together a fragrance, get a GCMS readout and use that as your official breakdown of ingredients. Laboratories specifically point out that they won't be held liable for errors in the GCMS readout, it's for analytical purposes only, not legal compliance.

    If you want to be 100% inside the limits, you need to know what goes into the formulation of your fragrance, and have official recordings off a trade balance. That's my recommendation.

    At least you are in control of your own formula at the point of formulation. If there are any issues, you can always state that you utilised an official trade balance to take reliable recordings which were cross referenced against IFRA guidelines and local legislation.

    I think this certainly beats: 'I got a lab to analyse it, it's their fault'.
    Australian Blog on Fine Fragrance ---> http://savourandscent.tumblr.com/

    Winemaker/Perfumer for Emerald Vintners ---> www.emeraldvintners.com.au

  13. #13

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Of course, I should point out, if you are in possession of your own GCMS, that is trade approved, this is much more accurate, and a much better option.

    Getting a laboratory to accept liability for using their trade approved GCMS machine is a different story.
    Australian Blog on Fine Fragrance ---> http://savourandscent.tumblr.com/

    Winemaker/Perfumer for Emerald Vintners ---> www.emeraldvintners.com.au

  14. #14
    Super Member otocione's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    I just looked at the price list for this kind of service made by the lab of the University where I studied, it says 180 euros for GC-MS analysis + 40 euros for standard analysis report. Tot 220 euros (about 275 australian dollars). Actually I can't say anything about prices in Australia but 2000 seems really too much for this kind of service which is pretty common in fact. It would be helpful to know where prince lives, just to understand if it might be close to what you pay here in Italy.
    Now, despite all, if he wants to sell his products he should of course get some appropriate device (trade balance or GC-MS). Paying for analysis can make sense only if done one or two times, for curiosity.
    Sebastiano - Organic Chemist

  15. #15

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Thank you so much, I am going to get a good balance very soon anyway. Also I'll contact some chem lab and see what they can tell me about it.
    Could anyone provide me with a link of the latest ifra regulations.?
    I went to their site but I found it rather confusing..I don't know where exactly to look for..

  16. #16

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    I’m not surprised you’re having trouble with the IFRA site - it took me ages to get my head round it - have a look at their overview spreadsheet as I think that will help you. The regulations are called Standards - three kinds, Prohibited, Restricted and Specification. Understanding them isn’t something you can do in an afternoon I’m afraid - they need quite a bit of study.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Thank you Mr. Bartlett! Is it the first category we are interested in?
    I must inform you that each time you mention an ingredient with its corresponding permitted percentage in your posts I write it down! A list with the most common and useful aromachemicals and their percentage is something very useful!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    It’s Category 4 that applies to alcohol-based perfumes intended to be sprayed onto the skin.

    Your idea of the list is a good one - I’ve made a summary list of IFRA restrictions and I’ll post it as a separate thread so that people can find it easily.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 15th January 2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: added link to thread
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Has anyone ever tried a good kirsch for a cherry top note?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    I would try Acetanisole

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    kirsch?
    ???
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Kirsch is a brandy from fermented sour cherries. I think it's useless in perfumery.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    From my Cherry Notes Files, quoting from Harry Sherwood, Frank Cardillo, and Akshay Bhatia

    Cherry pentanoate, Fructalate, Anisyl acetone, Loads of fruity AC will subdue the sharpness of benzaldehyde
    Do try some benzaldehyde diethyl acetal , easier to work with and far less pungent than the aldehyde
    Para-Tolualdehyde

    PK: Some of these materials are more accessible than others. And these are notes from others that I have used in Cherry accords / bases... Making a nice Cherry base takes skill, but you only asked for cherry topnotes, so these suggestions will fill your request.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Cherry as top note and chemical analysis question.

    Some days ago I (accidentally) made a mixture that smelled like Cherry fruit gum. It contained Fructone, Heliotropex N, a little bit Cinnamic aldehyde and some floral materials.




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