What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

[JungleNYC]

I'd like to make these, and stay as "true" to the basic form as possible.

There's a lot of confusion, it seems. But this is what I can gather from here, and the rest of the internist:


Fougere
lavender and coumarin
or
lavender, oakmoss, coumarin and herbs

Chypre
citrus, cistus labdanum, and oak moss / musk.

Any opinions?

[treeman5823]

Fougere: lavender and coumarin. Note there are many variations. Chypre: bergamot, labdanum, oak/treemoss. Ditto.

[cacio]

The basic chypre or fougere accords are always accompanied by other things, even Chypre by Coty (the reference) has other materials in addition to the basic ones. For fougeres, oakmoss was almost always added to the basic lavender/coumarin accord in the past (now it's banned, of course). Noticeable amounts of herbs into a basic fougere accord make what's usually referred to as aromatic fougere.

cacio

[pkiler]

Basic Chypre


Bergamot 15
Sandalwood 8
Vetiver 6
oakmoss 5
Rose 6
Jasmin 5
Gamma Methyl Ionone 3
Patchouli 5
Musk ketone 3
Clary sage 2
Neroli 2



Basic Fougere


Lavender 14
Bergamot 8
Coumarin 12
Rose 5
Jasmin 4
Patchouli 2
Vetiver 10
Geranium 2
Iso-Amyl Salicylate 3
Oakmoss absolute 6

[David Ruskin]

Fougere is the French word for Fern ( a plant that has no smell). Fougere Royale, the fragrance that gave the Fragrance Family its name was described as the perfume that a Fern would have, if Ferns had a smell. It contained a lot of the newly synthesised chemical Coumarin (found in Tonka but so much cheaper to make). To me a Fougere must contain Geranium, Bergamot, Lavender, Oakmoss and Coumarin. From that basic structure, all sorts of Perfumes can emerge. Spices can be added (to make Imperial Leather), musk and floral notes (Canoe and Brut), increase the Citrus and add some woods and amber (Cool Water or Jazz); and so on.

Chypre is the French word for Cypress, and the original Chypre (by Coty) was named after the island, well known for its herbs and flowers. A typical Chypre contains, Oakmoss, Bergamot, musks and a powdery element often supplied by Orris and Ionones; together with flowers and resins. Add a fruity top and you can get a Mitsouko or a Femme. Add a leathery element and you can get to Bandit, or Aromatics Elixire. And so on.

[gido]

excellent answer from david, with one slight error. there is a fern with a scent. it's called.. the royal fern.

[David Ruskin]

excellent answer from david, with one slight error. there is a fern with a scent. it's called.. the royal fern.

Well, you learn something new every day. Thank you.

[gido]

actually, i might not have had my facts straight either. i am not entirely sure if the royal fern (fougere royale in french, in many languages also referred to as the flowering fern) indeed has a scent. but whether or not it includes the royal fern, there are fern species that do. remarkably enough, one of these is called the hay-scented fern. surely the links between the perfume categories of fougere and foin (hay) are no coincidence!

[David Ruskin]

And Hay (Foin) Absolute also contains Coumarin. See how it all fits together.

[pkiler]

In my Fern Research, I have seen listed a fern aromatic product, but I can't remember if it is an oil or an Abs.
Sorry, I thought I knew where that first Fern was sold, at Liberty Natural, but now I can't find it there...

I go up into the mountains of California and gather another fern looking material for use in my Ere fragrance, that is quite nice. See my website and the Ere page for pictures of the fern in situ.
http://pkperfumes.com/shop/ere/

In the summer, it has an incredible essential oil content of between 8-12%, and I just need to do an immersive tincture to it for about a day, and then fold it/charge the alcohol twice, to get a very nice and eminently usable aromatic material for perfumery that is so dark, you can't see through it, with just the two charges.

But also in my research, I find that to be classified as a true fern, it would not flower, which my fern does in fact flower. So while certainly looking like a fern, it seems to actually be in the rose family, that of Chamaebatia Foliolosa. the Indians called it Kit-kit-dizzie, and the white man calls it Mountain Misery. (So I call it kit-kit-dizzie instead of the negative perjorative.)

And the great thing is that I only find another two perfumers using this fern in their perfumes...

[Ambolt]

Paul, are you ever worried about the international regulations when using such uncommon ingredients?

EDIT: nevermind, I just easily found a report of the constituents of your plant.

[pkiler]

Ambolt, Kit-kit-dizzie has a lot of interesting constituents...

"What the Nose Knows" by Avery Gilbert speaks of a wild rose
relative, Chamaebatia foliolosa. It has an unusual smell, described as
"cooked artichokes". The chemical responsible is 1-hexen-3-one, also
known as hexenone. It's a key aroma molecule in aged milk, cream, and
butter, also linden honey and fresh raspberries. It's only in the wild
rose relative plants at .01%

I also like the Viridiflorol content at 15%

[David Ruskin]

Paul, it may look like a Fern, but if it flowers then it isn't a Fern. Not that is matters, of course, but Ferns are a very clear and separate group of plants called Pteridophyta. Fougere is French for Fern. What goes into a Fougere has nothing to do with Ferns.

I would second the concern about using unknown and untested extracts in a commercial fragrance.

[Luís Carlos]

I do not know if that's true, but I read in some book that the name "fern" was "invented" by someone to describe certain perfumes which smell similar to environment where ferns grow (mostly hot and humid) and not the smell of ferns itself.

[David Ruskin]

I do not know if that's true, but I read in some book that the name "fern" was "invented" by someone to describe certain perfumes which smell similar to environment where ferns grow (mostly hot and humid) and not the smell of ferns itself.

As I wrote in my first post on this thread, the word "Fougere" is French for Fern. Fougere Royale was described as "being the smell of Ferns if Ferns had a smell", which (mostly) they don't. And. by the way, most Ferns that I know about like to grow where it is damp and shady.