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  1. #1

    Default What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    I'd like to make these, and stay as "true" to the basic form as possible.

    There's a lot of confusion, it seems. But this is what I can gather from here, and the rest of the internist:


    Fougere
    lavender and coumarin
    or
    lavender, oakmoss, coumarin and herbs

    Chypre
    citrus, cistus labdanum, and oak moss / musk.

    Any opinions?

  2. #2
    treeman5823
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Fougere: lavender and coumarin. Note there are many variations. Chypre: bergamot, labdanum, oak/treemoss. Ditto.

  3. #3

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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    The basic chypre or fougere accords are always accompanied by other things, even Chypre by Coty (the reference) has other materials in addition to the basic ones. For fougeres, oakmoss was almost always added to the basic lavender/coumarin accord in the past (now it's banned, of course). Noticeable amounts of herbs into a basic fougere accord make what's usually referred to as aromatic fougere.

    cacio

  4. #4
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    pkiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Basic Chypre


    Bergamot 15
    Sandalwood 8
    Vetiver 6
    oakmoss 5
    Rose 6
    Jasmin 5
    Gamma Methyl Ionone 3
    Patchouli 5
    Musk ketone 3
    Clary sage 2
    Neroli 2



    Basic Fougere


    Lavender 14
    Bergamot 8
    Coumarin 12
    Rose 5
    Jasmin 4
    Patchouli 2
    Vetiver 10
    Geranium 2
    Iso-Amyl Salicylate 3
    Oakmoss absolute 6
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Fougere is the French word for Fern ( a plant that has no smell). Fougere Royale, the fragrance that gave the Fragrance Family its name was described as the perfume that a Fern would have, if Ferns had a smell. It contained a lot of the newly synthesised chemical Coumarin (found in Tonka but so much cheaper to make). To me a Fougere must contain Geranium, Bergamot, Lavender, Oakmoss and Coumarin. From that basic structure, all sorts of Perfumes can emerge. Spices can be added (to make Imperial Leather), musk and floral notes (Canoe and Brut), increase the Citrus and add some woods and amber (Cool Water or Jazz); and so on.

    Chypre is the French word for Cypress, and the original Chypre (by Coty) was named after the island, well known for its herbs and flowers. A typical Chypre contains, Oakmoss, Bergamot, musks and a powdery element often supplied by Orris and Ionones; together with flowers and resins. Add a fruity top and you can get a Mitsouko or a Femme. Add a leathery element and you can get to Bandit, or Aromatics Elixire. And so on.

  6. #6
    gido's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    excellent answer from david, with one slight error. there is a fern with a scent. it's called.. the royal fern.

  7. #7

    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Quote Originally Posted by gido View Post
    excellent answer from david, with one slight error. there is a fern with a scent. it's called.. the royal fern.
    Well, you learn something new every day. Thank you.

  8. #8
    gido's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    actually, i might not have had my facts straight either. i am not entirely sure if the royal fern (fougere royale in french, in many languages also referred to as the flowering fern) indeed has a scent. but whether or not it includes the royal fern, there are fern species that do. remarkably enough, one of these is called the hay-scented fern. surely the links between the perfume categories of fougere and foin (hay) are no coincidence!

  9. #9

    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    And Hay (Foin) Absolute also contains Coumarin. See how it all fits together.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    In my Fern Research, I have seen listed a fern aromatic product, but I can't remember if it is an oil or an Abs.
    Sorry, I thought I knew where that first Fern was sold, at Liberty Natural, but now I can't find it there...

    I go up into the mountains of California and gather another fern looking material for use in my Ere fragrance, that is quite nice. See my website and the Ere page for pictures of the fern in situ.
    http://pkperfumes.com/shop/ere/

    In the summer, it has an incredible essential oil content of between 8-12%, and I just need to do an immersive tincture to it for about a day, and then fold it/charge the alcohol twice, to get a very nice and eminently usable aromatic material for perfumery that is so dark, you can't see through it, with just the two charges.

    But also in my research, I find that to be classified as a true fern, it would not flower, which my fern does in fact flower. So while certainly looking like a fern, it seems to actually be in the rose family, that of Chamaebatia Foliolosa. the Indians called it Kit-kit-dizzie, and the white man calls it Mountain Misery. (So I call it kit-kit-dizzie instead of the negative perjorative.)

    And the great thing is that I only find another two perfumers using this fern in their perfumes...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Paul, are you ever worried about the international regulations when using such uncommon ingredients?

    EDIT: nevermind, I just easily found a report of the constituents of your plant.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Ambolt, Kit-kit-dizzie has a lot of interesting constituents...

    "What the Nose Knows" by Avery Gilbert speaks of a wild rose
    relative, Chamaebatia foliolosa. It has an unusual smell, described as
    "cooked artichokes". The chemical responsible is 1-hexen-3-one, also
    known as hexenone. It's a key aroma molecule in aged milk, cream, and
    butter, also linden honey and fresh raspberries. It's only in the wild
    rose relative plants at .01%

    I also like the Viridiflorol content at 15%
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  13. #13

    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Paul, it may look like a Fern, but if it flowers then it isn't a Fern. Not that is matters, of course, but Ferns are a very clear and separate group of plants called Pteridophyta. Fougere is French for Fern. What goes into a Fougere has nothing to do with Ferns.

    I would second the concern about using unknown and untested extracts in a commercial fragrance.

  14. #14
    Basenotes Member Luís Carlos's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    I do not know if that's true, but I read in some book that the name "fern" was "invented" by someone to describe certain perfumes which smell similar to environment where ferns grow (mostly hot and humid) and not the smell of ferns itself.

  15. #15

    Default Re: What are the de-facto CHYPRE and FOUGERE ingredients?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luís Carlos View Post
    I do not know if that's true, but I read in some book that the name "fern" was "invented" by someone to describe certain perfumes which smell similar to environment where ferns grow (mostly hot and humid) and not the smell of ferns itself.
    As I wrote in my first post on this thread, the word "Fougere" is French for Fern. Fougere Royale was described as "being the smell of Ferns if Ferns had a smell", which (mostly) they don't. And. by the way, most Ferns that I know about like to grow where it is damp and shady.




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