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  1. #1

    Default Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi,
    i have tried many violet formulas, but i still cannot create the "commercial violet" or sometimes called as "pink violet" scent used in cosmetics...I have also bought Violet fleuressence from PerfumersWorld, but everything smell more or less like pure ionones lacking the "floral part".

    Maybe adding P.E.A. or hydroxycitronellal will help....

  2. #2

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    So why not do it, and find out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Once again here is a Violet base from Poucher. Even though I got no response from you when I provided the Gardenia base before; I'll try to be helpful one more time.

    Benzyl Acetate 10.0
    Bergamot (Oil or Base) 10.0
    Methyl Heptine Carbonate 1.0
    Orris Concrete (or Orris Base) 2.0
    Mthyl Ionone 50.0
    Violet Leaf Absolute 2.0
    Ionone alpha 15.0
    Benzyl iso-Eugenol 4.0
    Ylang (Oil or Base) 2.0
    Jasmin (Absolute or Base) 2.0
    Cassie or Mimosa Base 2.0

    I realise that you may not have all of these materials, but it should give you an idea in which way to go.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi David,

    Gardenia:
    i dont have still Styrallyl Acetate... whenever i will get it somewhere i will try the formula.

    Violet:
    yes i have prepared both Poucher formula : Parma Violet no.1066 and Victoria Violet no.1067.The first one does smell better, but still far away from what i am looking for. But i am not sure about my Ylang-Ylang and Cassie EO quality, which come from local aromatherapy shop.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Milhaus, here is the contents of my Violet Files:

    Violet Natural Formulation Ideas

    We have Ayala Sender, natural perfumer of Quinta Essentia, to thank for sharing her formula with us. Violet flower absolute is not produced
    anymore, and we still want the scent for our perfumes.
    Here is a way to recreate the violet scent:

    Violet flowers are so expensive and non-cost-effective to produce, and are usually replaced by orris root and/or a compound made of a mixture of synthetics and naturals.

    I find violet flower note is possible to create with all natural ingredient as an accord of its own.
    My perfume "Viola" is a violet soliflore and is very much like a violet flower in my opinion.

    You can try to play with some or all of the following ingredients to create various shades of violet flower:

    Violet leaf
    Orris root
    Boronia
    Costus
    Lavender
    Opoponax
    Vanilla
    Tonka bean
    Rose
    Ylang ylang
    Sandalwood

    I think the ingredients above can all contribute to some aspect or the other of violet flower - and if you get the right proportions, the
    result will be alluring, soft, delicate, floral and violet like.

    Be careful of Violet leaf absolute and Boronia absolute - they need to be used in very small quantities, though they are extremely important
    for the violet accord. Start with one drop of either of them and don't add more until you are sure you add more.
    The same can be said for costus (use it if you want a darker violet shade).



    Violet Synthetic Formula
    510 Alpha ionone
    165 Methyl ionone
    80 Violet leaf absolute
    80 Anisaldehyde
    65 Heliotropin
    50 Orris concrete
    30 EO Bergamot FCF
    10 Cassia absolute
    10 Leaf alcohol


    "I have an orris butter that is 15% irones (structurally related to ionones) and you can create a lovely accord with that, some violet leaf absolute and ylang absolute. Add a touch of vanilla CO2 for softness." Noted by "M"


    "Two isolates that lend themselves to a violet composition, Heliotropin and phenyethyl alcohol. Heliotropin however is a controlled substance, but PET otoh, is affordable and while it doesn't have a violet odor in and of itself, it is a good component to consider. AFAIK there is no violet fragranced or alpha ionone natural isolate." Noted by another

    After this, you're on your own, and living the dream of what it means to be a Perfumer!

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  5. #5
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    I think the chemical 1,4 dimethoxybenzene is also important. (David has mentioned this elsewhere)When trying to make a natural accord I used star anis oil to replace this, with some success.

    I now own 1,4 dimethoxybenzene itself and I find it a useful material generally. I have extra (i.e. too much) if people want samples.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    1,4 dimethoxybenzene AKA para-dimethyl Hydroquinone

    Available at TGSC for:

    RW102343 dimethyl hydroquinone
    msds 10 grams
    $10.15
    25 grams
    $12.35


    And Sigma Aldrich, if you are approved to buy from them at:

    W238600 - 1 Kg 66.00


    But getting approved to buy from Sigma has been an ordeal for both me and Chris Bartlett, but finally we are now both able to buy from Sigma, for anything that the stock number starts with a "W". Like the stock number does so above.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    "I have an orris butter that is 15% irones (structurally related to ionones) and you can create a lovely accord with that, some violet leaf absolute and ylang absolute. Add a touch of vanilla CO2 for softness." Noted by "M"


    "Two isolates that lend themselves to a violet composition, Heliotropin and phenyethyl alcohol. Heliotropin however is a controlled substance, but PET otoh, is affordable and while it doesn't have a violet odor in and of itself, it is a good component to consider. AFAIK there is no violet fragranced or alpha ionone natural isolate." Noted by another

    PK
    Orris butter at 15% irones is going to be a very expensive proposition indeed (so too is boronia absolute for that matter, even assuming you can find any). Costus is also prohibited by IFRA, which may matter to you if you plan to sell your fragrances.

    A quick comment on the isolates - if you can persuade someone to prepare it for you it is possible to buy Heliotropine without a licence by having it pre-mixed with something else - some suppliers will do this for you. A good candidate might be PEA as that is so versatile and also available as a natural isolate if that’s what you want.

    Despite the comment, there is indeed an alpha and beta ionone natural isolate available - they are extracted from raspberries - horribly expensive by comparison with the synthetics though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    1,4 dimethoxybenzene AKA para-dimethyl Hydroquinone

    Available at TGSC for:

    RW102343 dimethyl hydroquinone
    msds 10 grams
    $10.15
    25 grams
    $12.35


    And Sigma Aldrich, if you are approved to buy from them at:

    W238600 - 1 Kg 66.00


    But getting approved to buy from Sigma has been an ordeal for both me and Chris Bartlett, but finally we are now both able to buy from Sigma, for anything that the stock number starts with a "W". Like the stock number does so above.

    PK
    To get approval to buy from SAFC you need to be a business and to demonstrate to them that you are a fit and proper person with fit and proper facilities for handling hazardous materials . . .

    DMB is a solid at room temperature, melting at about 60C, which makes it a bit of a pain to handle. An alternative is Ylang Ylang, which is useful for violet for other reasons.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 17th November 2013 at 05:55 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Dimethyl Hydroquinone useful for Hyacinth, never used it for Violet.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Dimethyl Hydroquinone useful for Hyacinth, never used it for Violet.

    Well I certainly will not argue with your experience David; it is interesting that in the professional world, Dimethyl Hydroquinone is not used for violet.

    FYI though, I was going from a head-space analysis someone sent me a couple years ago which showed 1,4, dimethoxybenzene as a significant component and also this information on Bo Jensen's excellent website:

    "The unique, fine, sweet fragrance of the violet flowers is dominated by ionones: alpha-ionone, beta-ionone and beta-dihydroionone. Interestingly, hydroquinone dimethyl ether or 1,4-dimethoxybenzene is another major constituent. This compound has a powerful sweet herbal anisic odor which is barely perceptible in the violet scent but acts as synergist to the ionones (at least as perceived by human beings). Among the trace components a number of secondary metabolites of linolic- and linolenic are important, e.g. (Z)-3-hexenal with a powerful grassy odor and (E,Z)-2,6-nonadienol with a powerful cucumber-like odor [210]. These compounds are the prominent ones in violet leaf oil which has a sparklingly intense 'green' odour being much appreciated in fine perfumery [3]."

    (3) Ohloff G. Scent and Fragrances. The Fascination of Odors and their Chemical Perspectives. Berlin, Heidelberg: Springer-Verlag; 1994.

    At the time I did find adding an anesic element to my various (very amateur) attempts at a natural violet accords did seem to make a huge difference.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi John,
    thanks for comment. In Violet formula i have here are used mostly Anisic aldehyde or Benzyl iso eugenol. It will be interesting to try 1,4-dimethoxybenzene instead.
    BTW: because i have lack of Violet leaf absolute, i am looking for something cheaper ( synthetic ). But i have here only Undecavertol , MOC which lacks the strong green odour of violet leaf. So i will try to find somewhere 3-hexenal.I am not sure if 2,6-nonadienol is available in small amount...

  11. #11
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Milhaus I would just buy some violet leaf abs -- but the very smallest amount you can buy, it is so extremely powerful as a hobbyist 1 gram would probably last you years. On a usage basis it is not expensive at all. Or alternately buy it pre-diluted -- proxisante sells it at 10% for as little as Euros 3.60

    Also, just to be clear on the DMB issue though, if you listen to one person here it should not be me, but David. In case you did not know, he is a retired professional perfumer and we are extremely lucky he is here on our board.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    In the post above Paul Killer has mentioned Violet formula where Violet leaf absolute is used in 8% concentration. That is pretty much.To prepare 5ml of Violet concentrate i need about 0,4ml of 100% absolute. So 1gram of absolute will last for 2 batches only. Or i am wrong ?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    gecko I didn't say that the Hydroquinine was not used in Violets, just that I never used it. In Perfumery you can use whatever you like to get the effect you are after.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Point taken David.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    In the post above Paul Killer has mentioned Violet formula where Violet leaf absolute is used in 8% concentration. That is pretty much.To prepare 5ml of Violet concentrate i need about 0,4ml of 100% absolute. So 1 gram of absolute will last for 2 batches only. Or I am wrong ?
    Well if you are playing around to get your formulation right, using 10% diluted materials, even 8% will not set you back too much. David's accord has only about 2% so you may find you need less than 8% (which seems high to me, but maybe I am just hypersensitive to it -- to me in higher amounts it makes things smell like fish). Once you are getting to concentrates, yes, it will be more expensive. Get some to play around with. If you really end up making a concentrate it will be a little costly, but it's certainly not the most expensive ingredient around... this is, sadly, an expensive hobby.

    Edit: I checked prices again and for example Camden Gray in the US sells it for about $82/oz which means a little more than 2 Euros per gram (more or less, grams not equally in MLs exactly) and so your .4 MLs would cost you something a little over 80 Euro cents. If you buy at proxisante their price is 15 Euros for 5 MLs, so you are at 3 Euros an ML, and so you concentrate will run you Euros 1.2... Granted, one person's cheap is another person's expensive... but according to this website: http://www.expats.cz/prague/article/...ost-of-living/ the cost of a Pepsi in Prague is about Euro 1.31; I'd take an ML of violet abs over a Pepsi any day!
    Last edited by gecko214; 18th November 2013 at 11:23 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Milhaus, The contents of my files means that this is the file I have created to catalog all my gathered intelligence from wherever I can find it on a certain topic. It very well could have come from private communications, blogposts, perfumer's group discussions, or any number of places.

    I can't say from where always, except that I redacted the name of one person who stated their ideas, and reduced their name to "M", instead of their full name.

    But none of these ideas in this file are my notes from personal use, only the repository for me to review in the future, and to accept reject, and/or modify to fit my needs. You should do the same.

    This type of information for a self educated Perfumer is what I get, since I didn't get a formal education. This information is full of holes inaccuracies, biases, and is often historically old.

    Do with it what you will.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    I believe this so strongly I cannot tell you. The only way to learn Perfumery is by doing it, and that includes building up a library of information, gathered by yourself. It is all very well asking for guidance, but you learn by doing it.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I believe this so strongly I cannot tell you. The only way to learn Perfumery is by doing it, and that includes building up a library of information, gathered by yourself. It is all very well asking for guidance, but you learn by doing it.
    I believe this too.

    However I do also believe that the gathering of information can legitimately and usefully be done by asking questions of others who may know more, or different, things from you: that’s what we are doing here. I often learn new things from talking to other perfumers and suppliers.

    To that end, two things I’ve found useful in violet accords are Virginian Cedarwood and Verdilyn. I can’t imagine 8% violet leaf absolute being successful myself: I used less than 0.5% for mine. I did find that traces of trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal were essential though: this material is easily available now from my list, where you’ll find it in the ‘high impact materials’ section.

    Dimethyl hydroquinone used to be available from Perfumers Apprentice, but I can’t find it on their site now - again it’s available from my list though (MOQ 30ml).
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 15th April 2015 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Updated links
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi Chris,
    thank you very much for hints , please could you tell me how much Verdilyn do you use in Violet accord ( if not secret ) ? I dont have Verdilyn, but from i have found, it is pretty strong stuff...I guess something between 0.5% - 2% should be OK.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I believe this too.

    However I do also believe that the gathering of information can legitimately and usefully be done by asking questions of others who may know more, or different, things from you: thatís what we are doing here. I often learn new things from talking to other perfumers and suppliers.

    To that end, two things Iíve found useful in violet accords are Virginian Cedarwood and Verdilyn. I canít imagine 8% violet leaf absolute being successful myself: I used less than 0.5% for mine. I did find that traces of trans-2-cis-6-nonadienal were essential though: this material is easily available now from Hermitage, where it is listed as Cucumber Aldehyde.

    Dimethyl hydroquinone used to be available from Perfumers Apprentice, but I canít find it on their site now - you could try asking if they have any left - failing that Adam and I might be able to make it available via Hermitage if there is enough interest.
    I made up a very small batch of the accord given by Paul, (but substituting the anis aldeyde for dimethyl hidroquinone.) It is true the 8% violet leaf is too much for my taste, and dominates on first blast, in a quite aggressive way. What is interesting is what happens later, when this dries down into a dry, almost woody very true violet with good lasting power.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    I made up a very small batch of the accord given by Paul, (but substituting the anis aldeyde for dimethyl hidroquinone.) It is true the 8% violet leaf is too much for my taste, and dominates on first blast, in a quite aggressive way. What is interesting is what happens later, when this dries down into a dry, almost woody very true violet with good lasting power.
    Very interesting, I may try a modification of mine with an excess then - the rest of the formula is very different so it may or may not work in the same way - but Iím a great fan of violet leaf absolute so itís worth a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    Hi Chris,
    thank you very much for hints , please could you tell me how much Verdilyn do you use in Violet accord ( if not secret ) ? I dont have Verdilyn, but from i have found, it is pretty strong stuff...I guess something between 0.5% - 2% should be OK.
    Yes thatís right - in mine itís under 1% - but experimenting in that range is likely to be successful in my view.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    The ionones used in all violet fragrances make it in general a very harsh mixture, which is even made worse by the use of very potent green notes like from violet leaf abs or methyl heptine carbonate. I try in general to use as little as possible of any of these. Then there are some tricks:
    - Use Phenyl Propyl Alcohol instead of Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol, it fits much better in the violet profile
    - Use Benzoin Siam, you can replace all or part of the heliotropin with it
    - Use a little anisaldehyde: makes it more natural and is a good bridge between the green and balsamic aspects

    Most important is probably to be patient, violet fragrance improve dramatically after some time (at least half a year)

  22. #22

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Thanks for tips.
    Now i am testing 9 different versions of violet accord.

    I have also tried to prepare Poucher Violet Perfume:
    100 Parma violet
    40 Victoria violet
    5 cassie absolute
    1 rose otto
    1 civet absolute ( replaced by 1 part of 10% Civet CNC )
    1 musk ketone
    2 santal
    30 Ambergris tincture 3% ( replaced by 10 parts of Ambergris key accord - creatingperfume.com 10% )
    20 musk tincture 3%
    800 alcohol

    Due lack of some ingredients i have replaced Ambergris and Civet. I dont have also musk tincture. It is good idea to replace it by 20 parts of Galaxolide ?

  23. #23
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    Thanks for tips.
    Now i am testing 9 different versions of violet accord.

    I have also tried to prepare Poucher Violet Perfume:
    100 Parma violet
    40 Victoria violet
    5 cassie absolute
    1 rose otto
    1 civet absolute ( replaced by 1 part of 10% Civet CNC )
    1 musk ketone
    2 santal
    30 Ambergris tincture 3% ( replaced by 10 parts of Ambergris key accord - creatingperfume.com 10% )
    20 musk tincture 3%
    800 alcohol

    Due lack of some ingredients i have replaced Ambergris and Civet. I don't have also musk tincture. It is good idea to replace it by 20 parts of Galaxolide ?
    The closest to natural deer musk is l-muscone, also hard to get a hold of. What are you using for the parma violet and victoria violet in the formula?

    PS I have not forgotten you, just no time to get to the post office...

  24. #24

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Poucher provides the formulae for Parma Violet and Victoria violet.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Look here:
    http://books.google.cz/books?id=EYVG...o.1066&f=false


    PS: OK i will wait Thanks !

  26. #26

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi,
    i have just sniffed my violet accords prepared with different ionones ( alpha, beta, methyl and gamma 95 ) after 2 months of aging. The smell of ionones in accords is now much better.

    Here are my results after aging:

    Ionone gamma 95 - my favourite ionone with nice floral violet scent
    Ionone beta - nice floral/fruity violet with woody nuances
    Ionone alpha - i am confused...i dont like something in this ionone form, maybe need more time
    Methyl ionone - powdery - sour (?) scent i dont like it, maybe need more time

    so i will now try to prepare violet accord only from Ionone gamma 95 , Ionone beta in 50:50 ratio.
    I still dont have cucumber aldehyde - so i will add only small amount Undecavertol and violet leaf abs.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    IONON alpha
    IONON beta
    Methyljonon alpha
    Cetone alpha
    Isoraldein 70
    Isoraldein 95
    Irald. gamma
    Nondienal
    Methyloctincarbonat
    Orivone
    Syvertal


    (Hydroxicitronellal, Lyral, Helional, Citral, Heliotropin, Vanillin, Iso e Super, etc.)
    Last edited by Mandarinchen; 3rd January 2014 at 08:09 PM.
    http://www.aromatisches-blog.de
    Here`s something for the tip of your nose!

  28. #28

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Hi,
    i have found interesting site http://viness.narod.ru/violac.htm

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Milhaus View Post
    Hi,
    i have found interesting site http://viness.narod.ru/violac.htm
    So how's your Russian? :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Violet accord - i am lost

    I know little Russian so i dont have trouble to read it.
    I recommend to use google translator for others.
    There are plenty of other chromatograph analysis :
    http://viness.narod.ru/az.htm




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