Violet Accord Formula

[pkiler]

Violet Formula for basenotes.jpg

It's come to my attention that this accord has gotten lost, since I posted only the picture, and not a typewritten formula.

So here are both...

Violet (Veilchen) *20

250 Beta Ionone
120 Alpha Ionone
80 Methyl Ionone
30 Orris Concrete
5 Cassie Absolute
30 Heliotropin
100 Bergamot
30 Ylang ylang
20 Orris Resinoid
5 Jasmine Absolute
3 Aldehyde C-12 Lauric
10 Musk Ketone (replacer)
15 Methyl Octine Carbonate
20 Hydroxycitronellal
50 Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol
50 Guaiacwood concrete
70 Anisic Aldehyde
60 Jasmine Synthetic
10 Labdanum c;air
27 Benzoin resinoid
5 Sandalwood EI
10 Civet Absolute 10%
____
1000

Source: Jellinek 1949
(Thanks Nemenator)

PK

[kumquat]

Sorry, I know nothing about DIY. I just saw violets and thought I'd make an observation. Do you know the fragrance- Violet Au Sydney formerly Eleanora Dusé? By Laura Tonatto? Possibly the most beautiful violet around.

[pkiler]

Do you know the fragrance- Violet Au Sydney formerly Eleanora Dusé? By Laura Tonatto? Possibly the most beautiful violet around.

not I,...

[nemenator]

10 Labdanum c;air = clear

Sorry, but
I can't remember the source... might be Poucher.

PK

Source is Jellinek 1949.

Here is a simpler one suitable for Naturalists, from Cerbelaud, Formulaire de Parfumerie, in 1920 I think-
Parma Violet Superfine
67.35 alpha-ionone white (probably white couer, which would be the Natural one)
0.05 Cumminic Aldehyde (this is difficult to find, so perhaps Cumin seed EO, preferably Chinese with 40% cumminaldehyde, and not the common Egyptian with 20%)
0.10 Rose Otto
20 Bergamot
2 Ylang Ylang
0.50 Jasmin oil
10 Phenyl ethyl alcohol

Before dissolving the above compound in alcohol, add-
1 Heliotropin
1 Ethyl Vanillin
Heliotropin is a quandary for Naturalists these days- so perhaps veratraldehyde (found in nature) with a trace of benzaldehyde- thanks Chris Bartlett.

[pkiler]

Soon there will be cuminaldehyde in our system of suppliers...

PK

[ProfessorBats]

I guess there is no such thing as a violet flower absolute or e.o? Just the violet leaf (which is another thing altogether)?
I've actually been wondering if I'd be able to smell violet perfumes or synthetic accords. I have a selective anosmia.

As a child, violets were my favorite scent, or at least one of my very favorite. I rejoiced at their appearance every spring and sniffed them greedily. I found it very, very sad that my mom couldn't smell them at all. And then puberty hit me. I lost the ability to smell violets. Oh bummer of bummers. As academically interesting as it might be to discover I apparently have a hormone-dependent, genetic, selective anosmia, it would have been more "interesting" to loose, say, cat urine. As my mom is going into menopause, I should find some violets and test the hypothesis that perhaps the anosmia is reversible once female hormones decline again.

Back to our fragrances. I read that orris is supposed to smell of violets, but had little hope that I would smell that aspect of it. I acquired a tiny sample of orris butter all the same, for my "fragrance education". It smelled very faint and mostly powdery, but wonderful. I eventually got around to taking it to the lab and diluting it 50% in pure ethanol (gentle heating in a water bath and a whorl mixer took care of that easily). The scent opened up quite a bit. Now, days later, I sniffed it again, and... could it be? Do I smell violet? I put the tiniest dab on my wrist. The scent exploded. And yes - it is violets, my long lost friends. I almost wept.

[Wood and Tobacco]

They used to make violet flower absolute, but not any more.

Good to hear you can smell violets again

[ProfessorBats]

Thank you. Well, violet flowers still smell of nothing to me, alas - but yes, it's wonderful to at least get an echo of them in the orris :-)

And that explains why I've found the odd reference to violet absolute here and there (if I remember correctly it's listed in the GSC), but none to buy anywhere. Same fate as honeysuckle, probably... Let's hope the industry doesn't keep killing off every single natural absolute for lack of profit or allergy concerns ><.
Mind you I have nothing against using synthetics as a rule. I'm just in love with the beauty and complexity of the naturals. I also work with fancy "new" chemical compounds everyday in the lab... using absolutes and EOs keeps my new hobby from feeling too much like I moved the lab into the home.

[Renegade]

Thank you. Well, violet flowers still smell of nothing to me, alas - but yes, it's wonderful to at least get an echo of them in the orris :-)

It will be very interesting to see if you are anosmic to Alpha or Beta Ionone (or any of the other ionones for that matter). I take it you haven't got any of those yet? Well worth trying if you haven't - they are quite cheap and are pretty much the essence of the violet scent.

[ProfessorBats]

Indeed - I was wondering if I should get some, looks like I can a get a small amount for very cheap at the PA. I think I will. Wasn't sure if those are the key aromachemicals, I may not want to buy everything on that list to try out that accord posted by Paul just yet. Thanks for that info, I'll see what I get from those.
They will be my first chemicals - would you dilute them to 10% in alcohol for initial evaluation?

[Renegade]

Yes, I would dilute. They are fairly strong chemicals, plus many people get olfactory fatigue smelling the ionones and can't smell them at all after a few sniffs. You might find you can smell them better diluted, or maybe not - maybe the other way around... Let us know how you get on!

[ProfessorBats]

I will!

[Irina]

Anosmia to ionones is a quite common generic predisposition (about 40% of people cannot smell the violets). So definitely worth testing, ProfBats

[ProfessorBats]

Interesting - I did not know that. Is it typical for it to hit at puberty, I wonder, or was that just random?

[Irina]

Genetically random, you're born with it...

[ProfessorBats]

Sorry, I meant the age of onset.

[ProfessorBats]

OK, so while shopping for the ionones at the Perf. Apprentice, I saw they also describe these two compounds as violet-like: isoraldeine 70 and -95. Any input on those? I'll probably buy the smallest amount available and smell for myself, but I was curious as to why they were not recommended in the two blends shared above (e.g., just newer than the recipes, or not great).

[pkiler]

The Isoraldeines are Ionones versions, in different purities, 70 and 95.

PK

[ProfessorBats]

The Isoraldeines are Ionones versions, in different purities, 70 and 95.

PK

Oh I see - thank you! So they are redundant with the ionones, in other words, if I understand correctly.

[Renegade]

Yes, methyl ionone to be exact, like in the formula at the top of this thread. 95 is slightly more violet like and 70 slightly more orris like. Really though, they're all quite difficult to tell apart.

[ProfessorBats]

Oh, duh - yes now I see it says "aka methyl ionone". And back in more familiar territory, lab chemicals supplier Sigma Aldrich has a bunch of these ionones (1-methyl-alpha-ionone and 1-methyl-beta-ionone for instance) listed - with chemical structures, yay.

[Pears]

Professor, it may be that you're only anosmic to beta-Ionone. According to one study, about 50% of people are anosmic to beta-Ionone but not alpha-Ionone:

http://afrsweb.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles...Reprint962.pdf

[ProfessorBats]

Professor, it may be that you're only anosmic to beta-Ionone. According to one study, about 50% of people are anosmic to beta-Ionone but not alpha-Ionone:

http://afrsweb.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles...Reprint962.pdf

Thank you Pear - some very interesting things in that article!
I guess I'll find out from trying the ionones. I shall make a series of dilutions and report the results of my experiment with a sample size of one.
Well - I guess I should find at least one volunteer who reports being able to smell violets to have a "normal" control. Hey, maybe I'll subject the whole lab to the experiment, ha ha. Compulsory new training for all techs, students, post-doc: smell the violets! (Just kidding, I wouldn't bully them like that, just to be clear; but I might ask as a voluntary participation).

[Pears]

Perhaps you could blind the study, for more reliable results. You may also find this study interesting:

A Mendelian Trait for Olfactory Sensitivity Affects Odor Experience and Food Selection:

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...SGH45F:OHFLW2F

"In a second study, the team focused on the odour receptor gene OR5A1, which is responsible for detecting the chemical behind the smell of violets, beta-ionone (doi.org/ncs). They identified the variants of the gene that underlie sensitivity to this smell and found that people with two "insensitive" versions don't experience the floral note that others do. Instead they judge the chemical's smell to be less flowery, or even pungent.

Hiroaki Matsunami of Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina, who studies the molecular basis of taste and smell, says we already had an idea that odour receptor variation can affect taste sensitivity. But the new work provides the clearest example so far. This one gene – OR5A1 – can explain the vast majority of differences in sensitivity to the violet smell, he says. "It's impressive."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...c-flavour.html

[ProfessorBats]

Thanks for the links - again!
Oh, I'll definitely blind it. Easily done.
Curiously, it never occurred to me to look for papers on this trait - probably because there, most likely, is nothing I can do about it; I have blue eyes, limp hair, terribly sensitive skin, my father's long-fingered "pianist" hands, my mother's skinny hourglass body type, and violet anosmia. You get what genes you get and try to make the best of it :-) All in all I am happy with mine.
I'll try to remember to log in and get the full Cell paper this weekend.

[pkiler]

Regarding this Anosmia pattern, it's a curious effect I think from my Perfume, Violet Chocolatier.

There are of course various ionones in it for the Violet piece, and Cocoa Absolute and some other chems for the Chocolate, plus other stuff of course. And of course there is quite a bit of violet in it, since it is a topnote and fond member both.

But it's curious that the ionones do fatigue your nose, and the effect is that the Violets and the chocolate trade places in which one you smell in the forefront... When you fatigue from the Ionones, you smell more chocolate. When the fatigue retires, you can smell the violets again, and they seem to trade places in which set of scents you smell over the course of time. They kind of play leapfrog with each other,... It's kind of fun...

PK

[ProfessorBats]

Paul, what a nice use of the rapid-desensitization effect of ionones!

btw my hormone/gene interaction theory was confirmed (in a sample size of 1 for this particular genetic variant): my mom has started smelling violets now after menopause. I guess I have at least that to look forward to getting older.

[Pears]

But it's curious that the ionones do fatigue your nose, and the effect is that the Violets and the chocolate trade places in which one you smell in the forefront... When you fatigue from the Ionones, you smell more chocolate. When the fatigue retires, you can smell the violets again, and they seem to trade places in which set of scents you smell over the course of time. They kind of play leapfrog with each other,... It's kind of fun...

PK

I've also noticed this odd property of the ionones. They seem to be the last aromas to remain in the nose, in some ways giving them the effect of base notes. If I smell them neat from their bottles, the smell remains in the nose for up to 20 minutes, fading in and out. As an experiment, I added a drop of alpha methyl ionone to a single serving of yogurt with whipped cream. That was over twelve hours ago and I'm still getting a faint aftertaste of violets every few minutes. It appears as though the ionones bind with the receptors on the tongue, as well as in the nose.

[ProfessorBats]

I received the ionones, and could smell something violet-ish already whilst unpacking the vials from their bubble wrap. Quick first sniff of a 10% solution reveals that I can definitely detect both, at least when fairly concentrated. Both smell of violets, I can see that, though they are a bit are different to my nose. First impression is of cool, powdery, ethereal floral violet with the alpha; a warmer, slightly sweeter, slightly spicy impression with the beta, maybe "wetter", or at least none of the "powder" impression. I guess the alpha is closer to the orris, though neither is anywhere near as enchanting. Will be fun to explore more and take notes. :-)

Edit a bit later - not so sure about the differences now, hard to compare when they keep making my nose go "dead" to the smell.... and the room still reeks of them after having the bottles open just long enough to pipette out a 10%v/v dilution. I also notice one or both (first thought it's just the alpha) make my nose feel all dried up, like it's the dead of winter, although the humidity is rather high here now. Is that just me?? In any case, I'll have to sniff further explorations at a lower concentration, will try 1%.

[Indie_Guy]

I've been working on different variations of a violet scent for the past year. One of my favorite ionones is Methyl Ionone Gamma Supreme. It's very fresh and has tea- like aspects to my nose. Unfortunately, I ran out and PA no longer seems to have it. I have several other Ionones but none seems to quite work like Gamma Supreme. Anyone know the closest substitute?

Also, yesterday I finally acquired some violet leaf absolute from Eden Botanicals. It's really wonderful smelling. I bought the 10% FCO dilution and was thinking of adding some small amounts to the formula-- however, I wonder if the fractionated coconut oil carrier would go rancid in a few years-- even if in trace amounts used in an alcoholic perfume. Anybody have any thoughts on this?